RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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When casting spells to be used via another medium (such as with scrolls, rings and weapons of spell storing, etc.) do the wizard's spell-enhancing school powers come into play?
For example, let's say I'm playing a 10th level Evoker and the party's rogue wants me to cast a shocking grasp into his +1 spell storing rapier. When he activates the weapon's ability, does the spell deal the base 5d6 points of damage? Or does it deal 5d6+5 as it would if cast directly from my character (per the Intense Spells power)?
Similarly, if a Conjurer stores a summon monster III in a ring of spell storing, does it benefit from the increased duration granted by Summoner's Charm even if the Conjurer himself is not the one activating the ring?
What about scrolls or wands created by the character? Also, if the character has applicable Spell Focus feats, are spells stored away for future use more difficult to save against as they would be if cast normally?
When casting spells to be used via another medium (such as with scrolls, rings and weapons of spell storing, etc.) do the wizard's spell-enhancing school powers come into play?
For example, let's say I'm playing a 10th level Evoker and the party's rogue wants me to cast a shocking grasp into his +1 spell storing rapier. When he activates the weapon's ability, does the spell deal the base 5d6 points of damage? Or does it deal 5d6+5 as it would if cast directly from my character (per the Intense Spells power)?
Similarly, if a Conjurer stores a summon monster III in a ring of spell storing, does it benefit from the increased duration granted by Summoner's Charm even if the Conjurer himself is not the one activating the ring?
What about scrolls or wands created by the character? Also, if the character has applicable Spell Focus feats, are spells stored away for future use more difficult to save against as they would be if cast normally?
Except for staves, I'd generally say no, though I'll have to look up spell storing items to be safe. Magic item discharges usually function at the minimal level possible (scrolls, wands) and don't specifically benefit from feats. From a pragmatic viewpoint, it would mean you'd have to know a good bit more about the creator of spell-trigger and spell-completion items, which would be a pain. Also, from a certain POV, spell storing items are items that cast spells, and the item won't have things like specialization or spell focus to help it out.
When casting spells to be used via another medium (such as with scrolls, rings and weapons of spell storing, etc.) do the wizard's spell-enhancing school powers come into play?
The online PRD does not say either way, but there is a distinction between 'casting a spell' and 'using a device' such as a wand. My call would be No in both the above cases, but I think I have a feat in-game that allows the former (I have both Combat Familiars and Animal Companions.) and I am working on a revision of item creation rules that would allow something like the later. Well, in wands that is. Look for them in 2100. Maybe...
I have to agree with the no on all magic items with the exception of a staff. A little extra kick from a staff would make sense. Below are a couple of quotes to support those thoughts.
From the PRD -
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
A minor ring of spell storing SNIP spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. SNIP
Hmmm folks are saying no but I don't see a down side for saying yes.
I mean the player making the item/storing the spell gets to feel badass
and the user gets what 5 extra hit points of damage or slightly buffer minions?
I would call this the advantage of going to a specialist. I could even see an evoker selling blast scrolls charging more cause their spells hit harder. Or there being restrictions on evokers selling scrolls to anyone other than the army as their work in considered 'military grade'.
I would also allow feats, bloodline arcana, and the cleric sphere abilities to effect the magic items they create. It is the caster puting the spell in the scroll/device afterall and the casters spells are shaped by the feats et al. It seems logical and more importantly cool that the CLW scroll made by a low level cleric of healing deity would be more effective than one made by the same cleric worshiping a sea deity.
It may not be RAW and it may pound another nail into the coffin of the magic item economy but I feel the rule of cool trumps in this case.
I am most likely wrong but there it is
~will
Hmmm folks are saying no but I don't see a down side for saying yes.
I mean the player making the item/storing the spell gets to feel badass
and the user gets what 5 extra hit points of damage or slightly buffer minions?I would call this the advantage of going to a specialist. I could even see an evoker selling blast scrolls charging more cause their spells hit harder. Or there being restrictions on evokers selling scrolls to anyone other than the army as their work in considered 'military grade'.
I would also allow feats, bloodline arcana, and the cleric sphere abilities to effect the magic items they create. It is the caster puting the spell in the scroll/device afterall and the casters spells are shaped by the feats et al. It seems logical and more importantly cool that the CLW scroll made by a low level cleric of healing deity would be more effective than one made by the same cleric worshiping a sea deity.
It may not be RAW and it may pound another nail into the coffin of the magic item economy but I feel the rule of cool trumps in this case.
I am most likely wrong but there it is
~will
It's more a matter of bookkeeping.
Look at any adventure, one you've written, one you've found in an old Dungeon magazine, a Pathfinder module. I'd suggest something mid or high level, but level doesn't really matter for this experiment.
Now go through that adventure and find every single piece of magical treasure, whether it's in an NPC statblock, noted in passing, in a treasure horde, wherever. Now who made these items? You generally don't know. Now what feats were used beyond the required feats? Was it an evoker with Greater Spell Focus (evocation) that made that wand of fireballs? What about the strand of prayer beads, did the cleric have Spell Focus or Augment Summons? What about that potion? Did the creator have the Healing Domain?
As you can see, this gets complicated, real fast. If you say none of those items were created by anyone special, well why not? The feats and classes are out there, your PCs have them, why wouldn't the NPCs? Also, what's the price difference between a boring wand of fireballs and one created by an evocation specialist with Great Spell Focus (evocation)? How about the difference between a bag of tricks and a bag of tricks made by someone with Augment Summoning? How do you tell the items apart? And is the difference between the "standard" item and the "augmented" item so great at higher levels?
Overall the rule is definitely cool, but potentially creates a lot of headaches.
Hmmm folks are saying no but I don't see a down side for saying yes.
For spell storing weapons and rings, I agree.
For wands and scrolls, it creates a weird arbitrage where a scroll of Shocking Grasp (say) might do either 1d6 damage (level 1 wizard) or 1d6+1 damage (level 1 evoker) or 1d6+5 damage (level 10 evoker), but they all cost 25 gp.
Honestly would it really be all that headache-inducing for a DM to allow this to pass for player created items and/or player cast stored spells? I don't think anyone is asking for the DM to go through every item in every adventure and write a in depth back history of the creator of said item. They just want to know if THEIR party spell caster who might happen to be a 10th level evoker could cast a better version of a spell into their spellstoring item. Assume that any items found in treasure are just made under the "standard" rules.
Again, how much is the difference in cost when a PC sells that item? For that matter, how much difference in cost when the PC creates that item?
It also causes me verisimilitude problems. The PCs are the only people who know how to do this? They're the only ones who would be doing it, why doesn't anyone else? A small bump in price for the "improved" item shouldn't deter NPC spellcasters from making them. It also might well lead to a situation where many items are only made by specialists in your world, as they do a better job than non-specialists making wands and potions and scrolls. The "standard" items then become less common, and the "specialist" versions become more common, prices change....
As long as your DM can remember that your staff of fire was created by an evoker with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and that your druid had Augment Summoning by the time he got around to making a bag of tricks and those figurines of wondrous power and whatnot, go for it.
It's more a matter of bookkeeping.Look at any adventure, one you've written, one you've found in an old Dungeon magazine, a Pathfinder module. I'd suggest something mid or high level, but level doesn't really matter for this experiment.
Now go through that adventure and find every single piece of magical treasure, whether it's in an NPC statblock, noted in passing, in a treasure horde, wherever. Now who made these items? You generally don't know. Now what feats were used beyond the required feats? Was it an evoker with Greater Spell Focus (evocation) that made that wand of fireballs? What about the strand of prayer beads, did the cleric have Spell Focus or Augment Summons? What about that potion? Did the creator have the Healing Domain?
As you can see, this gets complicated, real fast. If you say none of those items were created by anyone special, well why...
I can see that.
I am afraid I play rather fast and loose with things like statblocks so that problem did not occour to me. Brain fail on my part.I expect that I would add feat etc effects rarely and at random to treasure. My assumption is that most magic items are made by lowest possable level clerics and wizards working in off plane sweatshops. It's the only explanation that makes sense given the way the game economy works.
I would allow PC's and important NPC's who can make their own items to take advantage of the effects. It adds a bit of complication but It might be woth it if it matters to the players. Crafting items is both cool and a pain in the *** due to the time and cost. If a player goes to the trouble to make something then making it a bit personallized may well be worth the exrta pain.
Mind you it could get silly with a cleric/wizard/sorcerer multiclass stacking on the abilities and trying to churn out super wands. Mind you anyone going through that much trouble deserves the slightly better than average magic items.
But hey different games different rules I expect there is no wrong here.
hmmmm now I want to know just how abusive one could get with this. What kind of super item could be made?
I expect that I would add feat etc effects rarely and at random to treasure. My assumption is that most magic items are made by lowest possable level clerics and wizards working in off plane sweatshops. It's the only explanation that makes sense given the way the game economy works.
I would allow PC's and important NPC's who can make their own items to take advantage of the effects. It adds a bit of complication but It might be woth it if it matters to the players. Crafting items is both cool and a pain in the *** due to the time and cost. If a player goes to the trouble to make something then making it a bit personallized may well be worth the exrta pain.
Mind you it could get silly with a cleric/wizard/sorcerer multiclass stacking on the abilities and trying to churn out super wands. Mind you anyone going through that much trouble deserves the slightly better than average magic items.
But hey different games different rules I expect there is no wrong...
Two other quick notes.
1) You take away a bit of the fun that happens to be staves this way, as staves are to date the only items per RAW that let you use your own abilities and feats to influence a spell effect generated by magic item.
2) You let people benefit from other people's feats. The party wizard makes a staff of fire and has Greater Spell Focus (evocation). He then hands it to the sorcerer, and now when using that staff the sorcerer has that feat too.
quick note
1) You take away a bit of the fun that happens to be staves this way, as staves are to date the only items per RAW that let you use your own abilities and feats to influence a spell effect generated by magic item.
Actually, back in Aug/Sept last year Jason had said that feats such as augmented summoning would affect the results of a scroll (thread). In that case, it's not from the creator of the item, but person who is actually casting the spell from the scroll.
Metamagic couldn't be added, as that sets the actual spell level, but more or less inherent feats/abilities should still affect a spell being cast that way. To me, it goes along with the statement that spells cast from a scroll work exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way by the caster.
PRD:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.