I as a DM have been generally known to be very poor on magic items given. This dates back all the way back to 1st and 2nd edition for me, where the small magical rewards I would give the party would be major boons to them.
This evening I was working on some parts of the next adventure for this weekend. I knew that I hadn't given the group much so far (though they are low level) and so I tried to look at the recommended treasure amount for where they are.
After that I went looking around trying to find magical items that would be potentially useful to them. I really feel like I wasted a lot of time on something that is pretty low on importance, but I know that if I don't worry about their rewards now, I will have them lagging behind later on.
I sat down knowing one item that I wanted to accomplish for them, and put that together. The problem with that item, I don't actually know if anyone in the group will use it. I have on Dwarven Fighter who is using the Spiked Chain and a Wizard who is using a Greatsword (though doesn't have feats for it). The item makes sense to be a longsword since it was once used by a character who used a longsword, but I'm wondering if all I'm really passing the group is a paycheck if they can find someone to sell it to.
After that item I went through and gathered up some consumables (some of which they did get last session, but I made sure to track what they had) and searched for a while for another item that seemed like it would fit the situation they were getting it from.
I'm wondering what other folks do for treasure. At the moment the party is very new to everything and so they haven't run into much money at all, but one of the party members was basically begging for others to buy them rations for the journey they are taking because he is that poor.
I feel like if I just spit out what the group is looking for at low levels and keep it coming throughout it will diminish the specialness of what a magic item should be as well as diminish what that specific item is. If you get a Ring of Protection +1, the Ring of Protection +2 isn't really that big of a deal.
Maybe I'm rambling, and if so I apologize, but I'm wondering if anyone has a great and powerful solution for me that will make me super happy.
Anyway, happy gaming.
Barator
Just look up the treasure rating and roll randomly. Every now and then throw in an item that you know works well with one of the characters.
Consider looking at the Weapons of Legacy book for custom-made items.
My first consistent DM was extremely tight with magic items and it sucked!!. Seriously, i was a 10th lvl wizard and my most expensive magic item was a +1 dagger. Did it make me appreciate the dagger?...no.
They may not be blown away by a +2 Ring of Prot, but they'll still use it. And, i'll wager they'll be pleased that they've got it.
Another point is that, monsters CR is based on the premise that the PC's have appropriate wealth for their level. If that's not consistent then you'll need to modify CR's as well.
I think you'll find that PF makes it ultra easy to keep PC's level and wealth on par. If you go by the book, you can't go wrong.
Ultimately tho, it's up to you as a DM.
Sadly, the game as designed doesn't give you as much freedom as you obviously want.
Sure, you could withhold the +1 ring of protection because you want a +2 ring to be "special", but when you get to that point, won't you feel like withholding the +2 ring so that a +3 ring will feel "special" later in the game?
But, the game mechanics (CR, monsters, other challenges) expect a certain amount of magic from the group. If they don't have those +1 and +2 items, then they will find rough going when they try to handle typical CR10 encounters that might drop a +3 ring of protection. Not to mention, by the time you get there, you might feel like withholding that ring so a +4 ring will be "special" later in the game.
It may sound like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. I feel your pain. I wish magic items were rare and precious too. I wish they were never replaced. Someone lucky enough to find a magic ring at level 1 might use that all the way up to level 20. This whole idea of "Oooh, ahhh, this ring is soooo NOT precious that I will only wear it until I find a better one in a couple months." is annoying to me.
But the mechanics are written for it. And the players usually expect it. And not doing it makes my job 10x harder.
So, long ago, I caved. Now I give them what the game expects them to have, mostly, and fill in the gaps with cool stuff. So in between handing out and upgrading all their required weapons and armor and rings and cloaks, they find the occasional flying carpet, or boots of speed, or metamagic rod, or pearl of power, or ioun stone. That stuff is the cool stuff that they will have until level 20.
And then I don't sweat the "required" items so much.
I also occasionally give out personalized stuff. Stuff from Magic Item Compendium, especially relics and set pieces. Finding part of a set might be the adventure hook for the next handful of game sessions. Or hand-made items that aren't in any books. And, like you, I try to plan in advance who will use these things so that everyone gets their share of cool stuff.
Sadly, the game as designed doesn't give you as much freedom as you obviously want.
Sure, you could withhold the +1 ring of protection because you want a +2 ring to be "special", but when you get to that point, won't you feel like withholding the +2 ring so that a +3 ring will feel "special" later in the game?
But, the game mechanics (CR, monsters, other challenges) expect a certain amount of magic from the group. If they don't have those +1 and +2 items, then they will find rough going when they try to handle typical CR10 encounters that might drop a +3 ring of protection. Not to mention, by the time you get there, you might feel like withholding that ring so a +4 ring will be "special" later in the game.
It may sound like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. I feel your pain. I wish magic items were rare and precious too. I wish they were never replaced. Someone lucky enough to find a magic ring at level 1 might use that all the way up to level 20. This whole idea of "Oooh, ahhh, this ring is soooo NOT precious that I will only wear it until I find a better one in a couple months." is annoying to me.
But the mechanics are written for it. And the players usually expect it. And not doing it makes my job 10x harder.
So, long ago, I caved. Now I give them what the game expects them to have, mostly, and fill in the gaps with cool stuff. So in between handing out and upgrading all their required weapons and armor and rings and cloaks, they find the occasional flying carpet, or boots of speed, or metamagic rod, or pearl of power, or ioun stone. That stuff is the cool stuff that they will have until level 20.
And then I don't sweat the "required" items so much.
I also occasionally give out personalized stuff. Stuff from Magic Item Compendium, especially relics and set pieces. Finding part of a set might be the adventure hook for the next handful of game sessions. Or hand-made items that aren't in any books. And, like you, I try to plan in advance who will use these things so that everyone gets their...
I agree with this approach, just give out the protection, stat enhancement etc items. These must be considered less 'treasure' than required adventuring items.
I find the deprive them of mundane magic stuff so when they get the modest +2 ring they really appreciate it doesnt really work. Instead either:
a) giving out the odd above average item which is really appreciated (ie a +4 cloak of resistance to a 7th level party)-- sure out of 4 PC's there might be 2 other +1 cloaks and the 4th guy doesnt even have a cloak but man they will drool over the big item; or
b) combine items ie a +2 ring of protection that is also a ring of feather fall and jumping. None of those abilities are gamebreaking but the players love the cool multi item.
the important thing is that in D&D it is supposed to be fun to get treasure and IMO the way to keep this alive and still keep the game balance in check is to every now & then make the players eyes light up with the loot.
Kudos DM_blake and werecorpse.
I hate magic items with a passion, but the game system has made them integral. As a result I am happy to use lower CR monsters rather than suit up the PC's.
If I feel the need to dole out items, I usually wait until the party is at the same level that they could create those items.
Alternatively, I make them all unique set pieces, or simply immovable. The Greensword of the Daltese Coast is a much better trophy than a '+1 longsword' Cursed Items are also good for this, as well as throwing the book out when it comes to magic items (The Glass sword of Evendawn is a +1 longsword with a hardness of 1 and 5 HP. If grasped by a sorcerer, it gains hardness 10 and 10 HP and grants proficiency to the bearer)
In all honesty, I'm quite happy making all magic items more complex than scroll or potion into cursed ones. make them work for it.
Batts
Magic items can quickly become a slippery slope. The more the party has, the harder the challenges have to be to phase them. The harder the challenges, the more loot they get. If you're not careful, every goblin will have to be packing +5 weapons to threaten your party.
I usually use a rate of about +1 per 5 levels (on a scale of +1 - +5). So, at 10th level, my groups will have about a +2 item in most slots. But, I like to make things hard on my group so that they know they've earned their victories.
Generally the CR are based on the amount of treasure a party spend on items for use.
By every challange you could give them magic items the deserve, if they have the chance to buy good items, just give them te money instead. A combination is most of the time a good midway.
My GM told us on forehand that we would play in a very low item magic world. If we want items we should take item creation, beacause anything above 2000 GP is rare, abov 5000 extremely! Unles we can make it.
If we don't take item creation its our problem.
When I am GM i most of the time give them the opportunity to buy and shell thier stuff.
In Pathfinder RPG at Page 399 you will find what they should have been able to spend or what they sould have got from you as GM.
Note: The wealth must be spen on equiment in weapons, scrolls, wands, armor, etc.
Slow, sensually, and sensitively.
No rods of the ram in your hoard?
I did away with traditional treasure. I use an abstract concept where I just give them the stated treasure value for the encounter in "cash".
I just assume that they identify everything and then dump it on a shop or three dozen -it all happens off stage, just like their setting up camp, taking the morning dump and a killion things that aren't exciting enough for us to waste game time over.
If there is actual treasure in the encounter description and includes potentially useful stuff , or it's a non-player character with items, I'll list it and the players can "buy" stuff right now. That simulates them using something rather than putting it in the loot bag and selling it later. It's possible to "go into debt" that way (though if you abuse the system by not paying it back as quickly as possible, I'll hurt you).
It's an abstract system that differs from what "actually" happens (if you can call events in a fantasy world "actual"), but we're all fine with it, as it saves a lot of time, which we can use for stuff like slaughtering helpless dwarves or saving princesses and making allusions to their gratitude and how they are going to show it. (We'll also perform heroics if no better pastime presents itself)
I have all my players give me a 'wishlist' of magic items they would like. With that I weave some of them into the story where I think it's appropriate. If i had planned for the party to face some sword and board guards and one of the players wants a magic bastard sword, well one of the guards is wielding a bastard sword. I try to avoid having the magic item k-mart, to if they want to buy or sell items they are usually dealing with having items commissioned at a local mages guild or spending a significant amount of time looking for a buyer. Instead I try to make sure all the items i give out are useful to the players, and as many as possible are specifically requested.
I agree with the players giving me their 'ideal' characters in advance before the campaign so I can tweak the encounters to be either more accomodating or challenge them in a different way that their characters are nominally statted to take on, but yes, getting 'Wish Lists' of gear from the PCs is a good way to help them create their characters.
Players wants a +5 Speed Bastard Sword made out of Adamantite with a Mithril handguard and inlaid runes along the blade. Instead of giving him the weapon outright, write a small mini-adventure in which the PCs find a Dwarf NPC getting harrassed. The PCs come in, kick arse and do the 'Good' thing by the Dwarf, getting him his materials back. In gratitude, the Dwarf crafts the players in question items of their choice. Player offers to trade the Dwarf his + whatever Greatsword (depending upon level!) for his idealized weapon. Dwarf agrees, forges the weapon and presents the player with a Masterwork Bastard Sword to his description of the blade, and the Dwarf gets to sell the previous weapon to help cover the costs. Player can then get his weapon enchanted, either by the Party Wizard/Sorcerer or by an NPC of the same ilk. Player has 'earned' his weapon and it has a nice little story to it. He might even come back a few levels later to find the Dwarf who forged his Bastard Sword is keeping the Player's original weapon as a memento,and it's a nice way to keep the PCs 'rooted' in the game world while still fulfilling their little munchkining desires.
Alternatively, if the PCs are less interested in 'personalised' items and more 'just show me the enhancement bonus!' sort of items, have the PCs stumble across powerful magical items at low-levels in the hands of fairly High-Level NPCs, either allied or enemies. When the PCs reach a certain level and have completed enough quests to be well known and their allegiances clear, the PCs might have either gained the items through slaying the former owners or the PCs might be gifted with the weapons by the aforementioned Higher-Level NPCs as tokens of favour and friendship for their efforts. Again, another way to make the PCs feel like a part of the game-world without going over-board in Player Level vs Gold/Resources while still keeping the Role Playing up!
The final consideration is how the 'items' the players want will be found in the world. PCs might find the lion's share of their low-level treasure might come from a beat-up copper ring that's actually a +1 Ring of Protection that one of the fodder, er I mean Goblins guarding the Hob-Goblin bandit was wearing. Not understanding exactly what the ring did, the supersticious Goblin kept the ring on because it made him 'lucky' in combat. Sure it is a beat-up horrible looking thing, but if push comes to shove the PCs can either sell it or give it to a Cohort or the Wizard's Familiar in a pinch. The average encounter at low-to-medium levels should not include a magical items in every lootable corpse. Only the elite troops, the captains and those higher up, should have magical weapons, for not only does this lend a sense of prestige, but it is also a matter of avoiding rebellions when you hold the best weapons and the fodder is relying upon Masterwork at best.
Of course, at higher levels, magical knick-knacks crop up everywhere. The Cloud Giant who uses a Cube of Frost to protect himself when he goes to feed 'Snuffles', the mentally-retarded Young White Dragon he keeps as a pet, the Human Commoner who unwittingly is using a Sentient Staff of Evocation as the haft of the rake he uses to clean out the pigstye, much to the item's horror, the ruler of a city-wide network of thieves, prostitues and scam-artists who uses his Orb of Scrying to keep tabs on his minions and uses the innate Suggestion ability of the item to make sure they obey...sometimes the best items the Players could want will crop in the damn oddest places imaginable.
I fondly recall the time the DM of one of the Old Group's games put a +3 Dragon-Bane Lance in the middle of a Great Wyrm's 'latrine' cave. Never before have I seen a Paladin b*!*#-slap an Otyugh around so feverently for treasure, then turn around and chase the Sorcerer around the cavern screaming "PRESTIDIGITATION, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THE GODS, CAST PRESTIDIGITATION ON ME NOW!" Fun times, and we eventually had to use a Decanter of Endless Water and Mass Unseen Servants armed with every bit of soap the party had to boot, he wasn't going outside of the damn cavern until he was clean again.
Fun part was we had to eventually go back and recover the rest of the treasure, which included the deceased Knight's Full Plate and Heavy Shield, all of which was still at the bottom of the pile of fresh, rancid Dragon feces. Poor Paladin paid through the nose (heh) for thirty level 1 Commoners to come all the way out to the mountains to dig through the stuff for the gear ... and then had to smack the Otyugh around again to make it cough up, litterally, the armor and shield.
I don't think he was happy when the Cleric convinced the Abberation to come back to the City with us to live in the bottom of a pit in the Lower City and have the entire city's refuse shoved off the edge of the pit and down into the Otyugh's new home. In fact I think he was crying at some point after that session, poor bastard.
Another problem that I have with items is that they frequently are compared based on the bonuses that they provide rather than the story that is behind their acquisition. DM_Blake touched on that with his response and how PCs upgrade out of things that might be more dear to their heart than the newer and more powerful item.
@ Tanis - Pathfinder made it a lot easier to figure out what treasure you should be giving with each encounter. Providing the PC wealth per level chart (something 3.X had) and the treasure per CR chart (something 3.X didn't have as far as I remember) makes it a much better situation than 3.X treasure, at least from what I have thought about it.
@ DM_Blake -
Sadly, the game as designed doesn't give you as much freedom as you obviously want.
I agree.
Sure, you could withhold the +1 ring of protection because you want a +2 ring to be "special", but when you get to that point, won't you feel like withholding the +2 ring so that a +3 ring will feel "special" later in the game?
And that is where massive amounts of the problem begin.
It may sound like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. I feel your pain. I wish magic items were rare and precious too. I wish they were never replaced. Someone lucky enough to find a magic ring at level 1 might use that all the way up to level 20. This whole idea of "Oooh, ahhh, this ring is soooo NOT precious that I will only wear it until I find a better one in a couple months." is annoying to me.
Doesn't sound like you are picking on me at all, it sounds like you know exactly what I am feeling about this. These same things annoy me, but 3.X long ago changed the nature of the game where my magic stinginess first arose and sadly I have been clinging to my old ideas for a long time.
a) giving out the odd above average item which is really appreciated (ie a +4 cloak of resistance to a 7th level party)-- sure out of 4 PC's there might be 2 other +1 cloaks and the 4th guy doesnt even have a cloak but man they will drool over the big item; or
b) combine items ie a +2 ring of protection that is also a ring of feather fall and jumping. None of those abilities are gamebreaking but the players love the cool multi item.
Both are great ideas that I have used in the past to try and make sure that some things just felt special, and hopefully your group makes sure that those special items that are treasured will be spread around a bit.
@Iczer - Sadly, I am never happy using lower CR monsters. I love Roleplaying, but I also love the tactical combat aspect of the game. Nothing makes me smile brighter than a huge freaking giant running in and power attacking the party and making them all drop a load in their pants as they wonder how they are going to deal with this monster. Giants are a personal favorite. When the parties barbarian who specializes in face beating is shown what a monster that can face beat better than he can, it just lets me know that the world is as it should be. My treasure distribution ideas and my CR use don't go well together at times, but generally works out decently.
@XAverusX - I agree that it is is a pretty slippery slope, and that is one reason I have always liked avoiding it. Something that I have seen in other groups that has always bugged me is the sense of entitlement that some people get. If they get X item at Y level, they think by Z level they should have an upgrade to it and get generally miffed when one isn't showing up. They get bored of their old item and wish for something better. By avoiding the treasure issue until the party comes to an appropriate time I have found that I have generally avoided such problems.
One time I think I got the party to level 8 before they reached their first treasure hoard, though they had found some minor items before that. The hoard was in a temple to the Elven gods and given after they solved a number of puzzles. I had the party select which items would go where without them knowing what they did, and when the item ended up with the person it bonded to them. Then I went through and figured out what every item did based on who took them. I guess I don't just want the magic item to be special to the person who has it, but I want the rest of the group to look at the person who just used something and go "WTF just happened!? That was cool!" And in the resulting sessions after the temple I did get that as people busted out the items that they had selected.
@Count Duck - I love the crafting feats, and TBH am a bit sad that they no longer have an XP cost associated with them. I think my thoughts on the XP cost go along with my thoughts that magical treasure shouldn't be laying out anywhere for the party to find it. Any character of mine that was a caster would generally look at picking up some sort of crafting feat, and I approve of people taking them in my games. The feats provide an easy way for the party to get their basic or specific items, and they provide countless quests to find X rare component for Y rare recipe to make Z super dooper uber frickity frack that will scare every peasant within 10 miles and help kill the big bad nastiness of doom! But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
@KaeYoss - It sounds fairly similar to Living Greyhawk and that is pretty nice that it works for your group. It seems like a fairly no nonsense solution, but one that I am going to avoid using. Thanks for the insight though as it is one of the more unusual setups.
@Mirror, Mirror - Trying to find where to find a weapon or item of supreme power or legend I have done this as well. You know, a party member goes to the groups wizard or a sage and asks them to locate where they can find a great and powerful weapon. The wizard or sage spends time researching and gets back to the party member that Abernys the Fair, Divine Champion of the Wary Sword was last known to be venturing into the Hellfurnaces after the Red Dragon known in the common tongue as Strife. There is no mention of Abernys' return from that expedition, and it is believed that his sword “Guardian of the Faithful” is lost somewhere in the Hellfurnaces, possibly in the possession of Ember. I love that stuff, the party going out of its way to try to figure out where to get something because it is important to them. It has always seemed better than allotted treasure of what I think might be important to them or randomly generated stuff. I guess it goes along with my thoughts on crafting, the PCs take the extra effort and they get something extra in return.
@ Kolokotroni – I can understand the wishlists, though looking at the group I know what they are going to want. I don’t ask for a magic item wishlist in those words, but do ask them to make sure they keep me informed on things that they want for their character, storylines that they want to hook into more, and things like that. I also avoid the magic item store, though in a few places there are such things, but never the greatest selection of previously used items.
@ HalfOrcHeavyMetal –
Players wants a +5 Speed Bastard Sword made out of Adamantite with a Mithril handguard and inlaid runes along the blade. Instead of giving him the weapon outright…
I completely agree with your thoughts in this regard. Having a strong image for what your character is and what your character wants is great, but make sure that you realize that if you want a sword that specific you are going to have to put it together not rely on someone before you to have wanted that. I try to make sure that the world is populated with various NPCs that can assist with making these things happen and that the party needs to interact with the NPCs to get these things to happen.
Have the PCs stumble across powerful magical items at low-levels in the hands of fairly High-Level NPCs, either allied or enemies.
Another good idea to see where the location of some of the powerful items may be.
PCs might find the lion's share of their low-level treasure might come from a beat-up copper ring that's actually a +1 Ring of Protection that one of the fodder, er I mean Goblins guarding the Hob-Goblin bandit was wearing.
In my current plan the 2nd most expensive item that the party will be possibly finding will involve wading through an Otyugh’s discharge to discover it. I know it is a standard tactic for where to hide something, but being willing to wade through a bowel movement of that size deserves some reward I guess. Just reminds me of the first Jurassic Park movie.
Great story BTW on your groups encounters with dragons and trash monsters.
Thanks for the replies so far everyone. Was a good read, hope I didn’t get too long in my reply.
Happy gaming.
Barator
Sure, you could withhold the +1 ring of protection because you want a +2 ring to be "special", but when you get to that point, won't you feel like withholding the +2 ring so that a +3 ring will feel "special" later in the game?And that is where massive amounts of the problem begin.
I think the problem is not accepting that in 3.X and Pathfinder, magic items are factored into PC hardiness. There is reason that every magic item is not an artifact - it isn't supposed to be.
@ Kolokotroni – I can understand the wishlists, though looking at the group I know what they are going to want. I don’t ask for a magic item wishlist in those words, but do ask them to make sure they keep me informed on things that they want for their character, storylines that they want to hook into more, and things like that. I also avoid the magic item store, though in a few places there are such things, but never the greatest selection of previously used items.
I also know generally what my players want, but there is one specific thing that wishlists gives me. It saves me time. I dont know every magic item in the core book, let alone 3rd party materials and 3.5. The format of the wishlist is item name, brief description, purpose for the character, cost and book/page. I like to step outside the box on items as much as I can to some that are less traditional and less common. This method lets them do alot of the legwork for me. And as a DM anything that saves me time and effort is a good thing [in my opinion ofcourse]
I think the problem is not accepting that in 3.X and Pathfinder, magic items are factored into PC hardiness. There is reason that every magic item is not an artifact - it isn't supposed to be.
Sure, you could withhold the +1 ring of protection because you want a +2 ring to be "special", but when you get to that point, won't you feel like withholding the +2 ring so that a +3 ring will feel "special" later in the game?And that is where massive amounts of the problem begin.
This is why I give out alot of treasure in gold and give the players downtime to craft or have things crafted. If the players have a +1 ring, sword whatever, if i give them an opportunity to improve it directly, they generally take it rather then hope/look for a higher +x weapon/item.
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Slow, sensually, and sensitively.
Glad to see it wasn't only my mind that slide that way when i seen the title.
Now as far as the actual topic. Well this is why I like legacy magic items aka magic items that grow in power as the players do. No not all the magic items are that way, but throwing in a few of them. Least for me makes them feel really magically. That and I like to make magic items a bit more magically. As a player and a GM I find +1 long sword boring. Why not a +1 long sword that glows when orcs are near and once a day can brighten suddenly possible causing a daze effect for one round. Or something else fairly minor. Takes more work for the GM but I think it is well worth the effort.
Slow, sensually, and sensitively.Well this is why I like legacy magic items aka magic items that grow in power as the players do.
This is a method that I have also used for years, since 2nd edition. It is one of my preferred methods of doing things, obviously not for all items. I love it when people involve some heirloom item in their history, something that is important to them that can become a legacy (I guess that is what those crazy kids are calling it these days) item.
I have used them in other ways, but when folks have their family sword and give it a history, it is just hard to resist. Plus, it goes really well with my attitude that you should keep your items close to you and that your sentimentality would extend to your trusty blade. I know plenty of people in real life who don't like getting rid of lots of their old things even if they know new things are better.
Happy gaming.
Barator