Where's the Blackgaurd Prestige Class, it has always been my favorite, and while I've tried converting the 3.5 version over, it just doesn't seem to stack up well.
Does anyone have a good designed class or suggestions on what i can do?
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Where's the Blackgaurd Prestige Class, it has always been my favorite, and while I've tried converting the 3.5 version over, it just doesn't seem to stack up well.
Does anyone have a good designed class or suggestions on what i can do?
The Advanced Player's Guide, currently due in August, is going to have the Antipaladin class which is designed to replace the Blackguard
The Advanced Player's Guide, currently due in August, is going to have the Antipaladin class which is designed to replace the BlackguardWhere's the Blackgaurd Prestige Class, it has always been my favorite, and while I've tried converting the 3.5 version over, it just doesn't seem to stack up well.
Does anyone have a good designed class or suggestions on what i can do?
Does it?
I know that the Advance Player's Guide has the: Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner & Witch. I do not remember anything about an Anti-Paladin or Evil Paladin type class.
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The Advanced Player's Guide, currently due in August, is going to have the Antipaladin class which is designed to replace the BlackguardWhere's the Blackgaurd Prestige Class, it has always been my favorite, and while I've tried converting the 3.5 version over, it just doesn't seem to stack up well.
Does anyone have a good designed class or suggestions on what i can do?
Does it?
I know that the Advance Player's Guide has the: Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner & Witch. I do not remember anything about an Anti-Paladin or Evil Paladin type class.
It does. It was originally going to have a Templar class for other alignmetns but JJ confirms that that was dropped but the Anti-Paladin kept in.
Creative Director
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Yup; the blackguard won't be officially updated—it's niche will be filled by the antipaladin, which is a full 20 level variant paladin.
And yeah; no templars (variant paladins for non lg/ce alignments), because of space constraints and because the types of powers a paladin (or an antipaladin) gets don't really translate that well to all alignments.
And yeah; no templars (variant paladins for non lg/ce alignments), because of space constraints and because the types of powers a paladin (or an antipaladin) gets don't really translate that well to all alignments.
Okay, I haven't seen the anti-paladin yet, but could you please tell me what is so inherently lawful about the powers of a paladin? He gets a few lawful spells that can easily be replaced by the chaotic variants, if he chooses the weapon option of the Divine Bond he can make his weapon axiomatic which can be replaced with anarchic without any problem. Did I miss something? I ask because I converted the paladin of freedom, and the only thing I had problems with was finding names for the newly switched auras (immunity against fear and immunity against compulsion spells exchanged their places).
Okay, I haven't seen the anti-paladin yet, but could you please tell me what is so inherently lawful about the powers of a paladin? He gets a few lawful spells that can easily be replaced by the chaotic variants, if he chooses the weapon option of the Divine Bond he can make his weapon axiomatic which can be replaced with anarchic without any problem. Did I miss something?
The Chaotic Evil Anti-Paladin is indeed being done because it is easy to 'reverse' certain Paladin abilities Alignment-wise. A Neutral Good or Neutral Evil (much less True Neutral) "Para-Paladin" isn't such an obvious reversal, and will probably see such a signifigantly different set of abilities when Paizo gets around to doing them that they probably won't be called Paladins at all.
Also, James has repeatedly said that the Lawful aspect of the Paladin isn't well represented in the Paladin's specific POWERS or ABILITIES, beyond that they lose all of them if they violate their CODE (so, kind of Lawful there). The fact there are few specific powers beyond their Spell List dedicated to Law or 'anti-Chaos' isn't an impediment to this Code's Lawfulness, and combined with the plurality of Law-focused spells (esp. in Paizo material outside of Core Rulebook), they seem to have plenty enough Lawful focus/manifestation by my book.
Not everything needs to be represented by a power anyways. 2nd Edition Bards didn't really have any more especially "Chaotic" or "Anti-Lawful" powers/abilities than Paladins have "Lawful" abilities, nor did Rangers or Druids have any especially "Neutral" focused abilities, beyond the lack of other-Alignment-focused abilities (but neither do Fighters have any Alignment-focused abilities). No other class has Lawful-ness as ingrained to their Class Abilities as much as the Paladin. A Monk cannot further progress in the Class if they deviate from Lawfulness, but they maintain their abilities, and further, can conform to ANY SORT of Lawfulness they want to, even shifting allegiances over their career. A Paladin must conform to ONE SPECIFIC FORM of Lawfulness. Obviously, the Paladin's Code isn't as completely fleshed out in the Class description, but most DM's/settings have a more specific idea of what the Code entails (e.g. see PFS' rules for Poison use by Paladins).
Anyhow, re: the Anti-Paladin/Blackguard name thing, has it been decided what they will be referred to in Golarion setting material? Would a villian be referred to as "the infamous Anti-Paladin Vlad the Destroyer" or "the infamous Blackguard Vlad the Destroyer"?
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Okay, I haven't seen the anti-paladin yet, but could you please tell me what is so inherently lawful about the powers of a paladin? He gets a few lawful spells that can easily be replaced by the chaotic variants, if he chooses the weapon option of the Divine Bond he can make his weapon axiomatic which can be replaced with anarchic without any problem. Did I miss something? I ask because I converted the paladin of freedom, and the only thing I had problems with was finding names for the newly switched auras (immunity against fear and immunity against compulsion spells exchanged their places).
And yeah; no templars (variant paladins for non lg/ce alignments), because of space constraints and because the types of powers a paladin (or an antipaladin) gets don't really translate that well to all alignments.
its been brought up before. basically A pally is the ideal of righteousness, truth, justice, all the boy scout type stuff. Great power, great responsibility. gods don't want liars, cheats, and jack asses wielding epic powers (except when they do).
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Yup; the blackguard won't be officially updated—it's niche will be filled by the antipaladin, which is a full 20 level variant paladin.
And yeah; no templars (variant paladins for non lg/ce alignments), because of space constraints and because the types of powers a paladin (or an antipaladin) gets don't really translate that well to all alignments.
With the worst name ever. So when do we get the antifighter and what will its powers look like?
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Okay, I haven't seen the anti-paladin yet, but could you please tell me what is so inherently lawful about the powers of a paladin? He gets a few lawful spells that can easily be replaced by the chaotic variants, if he chooses the weapon option of the Divine Bond he can make his weapon axiomatic which can be replaced with anarchic without any problem. Did I miss something? I ask because I converted the paladin of freedom, and the only thing I had problems with was finding names for the newly switched auras (immunity against fear and immunity against compulsion spells exchanged their places).
And yeah; no templars (variant paladins for non lg/ce alignments), because of space constraints and because the types of powers a paladin (or an antipaladin) gets don't really translate that well to all alignments.
why are you trying to bring an argument you just finished having on another thread into this one?
The Chaotic Evil Anti-Paladin is indeed being done because it is easy to 'reverse' certain Paladin abilities Alignment-wise. A Neutral Good or Neutral Evil (much less True Neutral) "Para-Paladin" isn't such an obvious reversal, and will probably see such a signifigantly different set of abilities when Paizo gets around to doing them that they probably won't be called Paladins at all.
I don't care what they're called. However with the paladin (of honor) and the anti-paladin (or paladin of slaughter) there's everything to make the paladins of freedom and tyranny too. That would cover all the paladins good and evil need (neutral good and evil gods could simply accept both).
Also, James has repeatedly said that the Lawful aspect of the Paladin isn't well represented in the Paladin's specific POWERS or ABILITIES, beyond that they lose all of them if they violate their CODE (so, kind of Lawful there). The fact there are few specific powers beyond their Spell List dedicated to Law or 'anti-Chaos' isn't an impediment to this Code's Lawfulness, and combined with the plurality of Law-focused spells (esp. in Paizo material outside of Core Rulebook), they seem to have plenty enough Lawful focus/manifestation by my book.
Yeah, that still doesn't answer my question what would make it so hard to make the chaotic good and lawful evil versions. Their codes of conduct are in the SRD and the abilities should all be easily converted.
No other class has Lawful-ness as ingrained to their Class Abilities as much as the Paladin. A Monk cannot further progress in the Class if they deviate from Lawfulness, but they maintain their abilities, and further, can conform to ANY SORT of Lawfulness they want to, even shifting allegiances over their...
Yeah, no other class is so bound tobe lawful with such a lack of reason. The monk at least needs discipline. A paladin of a chaotic good god gets his powers stripped whenever he helps someone who uses his help for a chaotic cause....
its been brought up before. basically A pally is the ideal of righteousness, truth, justice, all the boy scout type stuff. Great power, great responsibility. gods don't want liars, cheats, and jack asses wielding epic powers (except when they do).
I felt a disturbance in the force, as if hundreds of trickster gods in dozens of settings cried out in anger.
Seriously. You have a champion you can strip of all his powers just by thinking of him. That's safe enough. No reason for trickster gods, gods of rebellion or any god, who doesn't need a knight in shining armor for a champion, to gimp them. For a gods of valour, honour, duty etc. the standard paladin is great. But they are not the only gods, and they are not necessarily more powerful than others.why are you trying to bring an argument you just finished having on another thread into this one?
I'm not "trying to bring an argument into this thread". I'm asking one of the people who work on the books a question because I don't get why the powers of the paladin and the anti-paladin are hard to convert to chaotic good and lawful evil.
...Yeah, that still doesn't answer my question what would make it so hard to make the chaotic good and lawful evil versions. Their codes of conduct are in the SRD and the abilities should all be easily converted.
Like I said, James already addressed that in the other thread:
Alas, it's looking like the Advanced Player's Guide is not going to have much room to talk about paladins who are something other than lawful good (with the exception of the antipaladin as a chaotic evil variant, of course). It just ended up being too complex to solve in the limited space we had for paladins in the book—it would have meant NO variant paladin support for lawful good paladins, and that's not really an option.
So we might address non LG/CE paladin/antipaladin options with some product (and again, hellknights are a good example), but that product isn't going to be the Advanced Player's Guide, it looks like.
Now maybe that answer doesn't assuage your existential angst over them not publishing a 1:1 equivalent to Paladin for non LG/CE alignments in the APG, but that IS the answer in the thread your original question was in, and you are indeed bringing up the same subject here. If you want clarifications, go ahead an QUOTE James' answer in that same thread and ask specifically what he means, etc. Don't go switching threads and tossing out the same line as if he never responded, because he did, and it's disrespective of his time in answering in the first place, as well as to everybody else, to keep up the same line like a child.
I felt a disturbance in the force, as if hundreds of trickster gods in dozens of settings cried out in anger.
Seriously. You have a champion you can strip of all his powers just by thinking of him. That's safe enough. No reason for trickster gods, gods of rebellion or any god, who doesn't need a knight in shining armor for a champion, to gimp them. For a gods of valour, honour, duty etc. the standard paladin is great. But they are not the only gods, and they are not necessarily more powerful than others.
Fortunately, we have the Inquisitor for such Gods until the time Paizo publishes their N/NG/NE/LN/LE Alignment Paragon classes. Would it be NICE if they were publishing all of those NOW NOW NOW? Sure. But so it would be nice to have Fighter and Barbarian and Druid variants, or a Samurai class, or Psionics. James clearly doesn't have a problem with the existence of N/NG/NE/LN/LE Alignment Paragon/ "Para-Paladins"/ however you call them, they just aren't making the cut for the APG. Not much more to discuss. Inquisitors seems like a very awesome implementation of the concept behind these roles anyways.
With the worst name ever. So when do we get the antifighter and what will its powers look like?
+1 lol...
Okay, my last post in this thread: I just looked at my copy of Unearthed Arcana. The paladin of freedom took up a bit more than 1/4 page. 1/4 page for the CG variant of the standard paladin and 1/4 page for the LE variant of the anti-paladin would equal 1/2 page.
I don't really care if they put it in. I have already converted the paladin of freedom and as soon as I get the Advanced Players Guide I will have everything I need to do the same for the paladin of tyranny. I'm just wondering what is so complex about it.
Pathfinder paladin take up 4 pages, to do it your way your looking at about 12-16 pages or so
Pathfinder paladin take up 4 pages, to do it your way your looking at about 12-16 pages or so
I guess it's not my last answer...-_- It wouldn't take 12 to 16 pages, because almost all the rules are either in the paladin entry of the core rulebook or the anti-paladin entry in the APG and the other two would only have a list of changes to those instead of a complete entry. Like that:
Paladin of Freedom Class Features
The paladin of freedom has all the standard paladin class features, except as noted below.
Class Skills
Replace Diplomacy with Bluff on the class skill list.
Aura of Resolve (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of freedom is immune to compulsion effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.
Spellcasting
Remove the following spells from the paladin's spell list: death ward, discern lies, dispel chaos, magic circle against chaos, protection from chaos.
Add the following spells to the paladin's spell list: 1st—protection from law; 3rd—magic circle against law; 4th—dispel law, freedom of movement.
Code of Conduct
A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.
Associates
While he may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin of freedom will never knowingly associate with evil characters (except on some sort of undercover mission), nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of freedom may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic good.
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Creative Director
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I have indeed already covered this in several other threads—the antipaladin will be in the Advanced Player's Guide. He's much more than just swapping out a couple spells and abilities, and is more or less the official "blackguard" of the Pathfinder RPG (although since we're not calling this the blackgurard and it's not a prestige class, we're leaving it 100% open for folks to easily use the 3.5 blackguard prestige class in their PFRPG games).
I am glad to hear it's more then a power swap James.
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Yup; the blackguard won't be officially updated—it's niche will be filled by the antipaladin, which is a full 20 level variant paladin.
I've often wondered whether a blackguard or anti-paladin should be LE i.e he has the same but opposing strengths to a paladin except that he enforces laws/traditions but with evil rather than good methods, or is that what the Hellknight does? Don't have Golarion Campaign setting yet so I don't know.
Chaos descriptor just doesn't sit well with me and paladins is all. Even the Arthurian black knight had a code of conduct. Just asking ;)
I am glad to hear it's more then a power swap James.
+1
...it will be called Anti-Paladin...
-1 ;-)
@Marcus: The history of the 'anti-Paladin' Black-Guard is indeed more CE than LE.
I agree a LE class would be great to see, and I would prefer to see a Base Class implementation distinct from (but compatable with?) the Hellknight Prestige Class... Hellknights are really very Cheliax-specific, and there's no reason there couldn't be LE Alignment paragons not from Cheliax, or even without specific connections to Devils (and the Hellknights are in some sense opposed to Demons anyways). Ideally, a LE Alignment Paragon Class (sorry, I sort of made up this term myself) could multi-class with the Hellknight PrC with decent effectiveness, though.
More seriously, just because something has always been does not mean it should always be.
Case in point: Swashbuckler and Ray of Stupidity.
;)
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Creative Director
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Yup; the blackguard won't be officially updated—it's niche will be filled by the antipaladin, which is a full 20 level variant paladin.
I've often wondered whether a blackguard or anti-paladin should be LE i.e he has the same but opposing strengths to a paladin except that he enforces laws/traditions but with evil rather than good methods, or is that what the Hellknight does? Don't have Golarion Campaign setting yet so I don't know.
Chaos descriptor just doesn't sit well with me and paladins is all. Even the Arthurian black knight had a code of conduct. Just asking ;)
The Hellknight actually covers all three lawful alignments, but it works VERY well as a lawful evil paladin variant. Since Hellknights are such a big part of Golarion, we didn't want to double up with the antipaladin being LE as well. Also... CE is a lot more "anti" to LG than LE is.
breakenellaw!!! breakenellaw!!!
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@Marcus: The history of the 'anti-Paladin' Black-Guard is indeed more CE than LE.
I agree a LE class would be great to see, and I would prefer to see a Base Class implementation distinct from (but compatable with?) the Hellknight Prestige Class... Hellknights are really very Cheliax-specific, and there's no reason there couldn't be LE Alignment paragons not from Cheliax, or even without specific connections to Devils (and the Hellknights are in some sense opposed to Demons anyways). Ideally, a LE Alignment Paragon Class (sorry, I sort of made up this term myself) could multi-class with the Hellknight PrC with decent effectiveness, though.
I like your use of LE Paragon class because it is exactly what a paladin is; a LG Paragon class. It would be interesting for a class like this to exist. But as a PC class it would be difficult to justify because most gameworlds have civilisations that are neutral tending toward law and good rather than neutral tending toward law and evil (except perhaps Cheliax).
I'm scared of buying too much Golarion specific stuff yet because from what I've heard and seen of it I just know I'll fall in love with it and go bankrupt ;) I caved in and bought the Planes and Gods guides and they have got me salivating. I already have tons of Forgotten Realms stuff, and my wife might divorce me if I buy into Golarion ;)
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The Hellknight actually covers all three lawful alignments, but it works VERY well as a lawful evil paladin variant. Since Hellknights are such a big part of Golarion, we didn't want to double up with the antipaladin being LE as well. Also... CE is a lot more "anti" to LG than LE is.Yup; the blackguard won't be officially updated—it's niche will be filled by the antipaladin, which is a full 20 level variant paladin.
I've often wondered whether a blackguard or anti-paladin should be LE i.e he has the same but opposing strengths to a paladin except that he enforces laws/traditions but with evil rather than good methods, or is that what the Hellknight does? Don't have Golarion Campaign setting yet so I don't know.
Chaos descriptor just doesn't sit well with me and paladins is all. Even the Arthurian black knight had a code of conduct. Just asking ;)
I agree with the premise that anti-paladin should be logically CE. But as I just mentioned to Quandary the law/evil paragon class is an interesting paladin concept and the Hellknight just might fit it, but then I'm falling more and more into Golarion and if I do that it will be the end I'll dump all my FR stuff and go nuts ;)
BTW Isn't a LG Hellknight kind of an oxymoron :)
Where is the Hellknight?
Humbly,
Yawar
3rd part of Council of thieves. Gonna be in the new setting book I think.
I have indeed already covered this in several other threads—the antipaladin will be in the Advanced Player's Guide. He's much more than just swapping out a couple spells and abilities, and is more or less the official "blackguard" of the Pathfinder RPG (although since we're not calling this the blackgurard and it's not a prestige class, we're leaving it 100% open for folks to easily use the 3.5 blackguard prestige class in their PFRPG games).
Thanks for the answer. Now I'm excited and afraid that you put the same effort into chaotic divine champions. :D
So tell me more about the hellknight, i remember reading about it in Rise of the runelords, but can someone give me the run down on its stats, features etc? sounds like an awesome class