I will be running a group of 4-5 through a pathfinder AP. Kingmaker is not an option because i will be a player in a kingmaker campaign. I have not Dm'ed for 2 years and thus have not run a pathfinder game. I have 2-3 veteran players and 2 new to DnD. All are new to pathfinder.
Basically i'm looking for some advice on which AP to run them through. Even if I wasn't playing through kingmaker, that seems like a tough one to start some new people on. I like the look of Serpent Skull AP but that will not be out till July. I could run some filer until then, chance to get their feet wet, but still need some advice on what to run.
Please Help, and thanks.
I will be running a group of 4-5 through a pathfinder AP. Kingmaker is not an option because i will be a player in a kingmaker campaign. I have not Dm'ed for 2 years and thus have not run a pathfinder game. I have 2-3 veteran players and 2 new to DnD. All are new to pathfinder.
Basically i'm looking for some advice on which AP to run them through. Even if I wasn't playing through kingmaker, that seems like a tough one to start some new people on. I like the look of Serpent Skull AP but that will not be out till July. I could run some filer until then, chance to get their feet wet, but still need some advice on what to run.
Please Help, and thanks.
You can run a DMPC, which is what I am doing, but if you really dont want to do Kingmaker then Council of Thieves is the only one that uses the Pathfinder rules. The others are 3.5, and you would have to convert the NPC's over to Pathfinder rules, which is not a bad thing if you have the free time to do so. If you don't mind running one of the earlier AP's Rise of the Runelords is a good one.
The group i'm doing kingmaker with is different from the group i will be DMing. Council of thieves seems like the one ill probably go with then. Didn't realize the others were 3.5.
Appreciate the help
The group i'm doing kingmaker with is different from the group i will be DMing. Council of thieves seems like the one ill probably go with then. Didn't realize the others were 3.5.
Appreciate the help
Be sure to read some of the threads in the Council of Thieves sub-forum; there's lots of good advice on problems that GMs have encountered and how to work around them!
Always run the current AP, that's my firmly held belief. I started by buying back issues of Runelords, and I sort of regret it. My reasons are two:
a) Price. It is always vastly cheaper to subscribe, and you get the PDFs. PDFs are important to me, since I play on a computer.
b) Value. The later APs are better looking and more innovative. Runelords is pretty cool, but the art is sort of dull since they only had two iconics for most of the interior stuff, and they were really figuring out the AP format. I also own Legacy of Fire, and I would WAY rather GM that. It is visually stunning and innovative, but now I'm locked in to Runelords.
On the flipside, subscribing has a major disadvantage: You don't have the whole AP when you sit down to start the campaign. If the pace of your games is slow enough, this isn't much of a problem. I don't know of anyone who actually plays through a whole AP's contents in under 4 weeks.
Rise of the Runelords is awesome story eventhough #4 and #5 part have some problems [IMHO too much hack'n'slash and not much roleplaying scenes]. Still good story and I have enjoyed running this campaign a lot. You don't have to convert every encounter. Check RotRL sub-forum for already converted material, great stuff. Just print and you have Pathfinderized versions.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Plus, it takes place in the desert, which, without being too exotic, is a nice change of pace for my veteran players. As a first time DM, I've found the material to be well-written and organized (hats off to Erik Mona!).
Thanks! I really enjoyed writing Howl of the Carrion King. It's great to see you call out very specific design choices I made about how to lead into the adventure. It sort of feels like a validation. So thanks much! I'm thrilled you've enjoyed running it.
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I am currently nearing the half-way point for Council of Thieves, so I can speak with some authority on that AP. Everything else I'm about to say is built off my researching and reading.
I think Council of Thieves is a solid AP, and it is the only other AP besides Kingmaker that does not require any conversion work, but that being said, I'm beginning to agree that it is one of the weakest of the APs. The story is good, but it's so damned nuanced, without the right group the story might fly over their heads, out of the room, and on to Mars. I'd be careful before picking it.
About six months ago I was going through the same exercise you are though, and I did a lot of reading on the boards, and read through the first two modules of all the currently available APs (not going back to Dungeon) as well as their full synopses. These are the feelings I developed about each of them.
1. Rise of the Rune Lords: RotRL has two of the quintessential classic AP modules written as far as I can tell (#2 and #3), but it was written at a time that Paizo was still finding its sea-legs. That's not to say they're weak, in fact the stories are quite interesting, it's to say that the AP feels more like a set of loosely connected standard modules than a true AP. There's plenty of conversion info available, so that's not much of a problem, but honestly I think there were better choices.
2. Curse of the Crimson Throne: The more I read about it, the more the Crimson Throne is one of the APs I wish I had chosen. Unfortunately I let the modules which take you away from the city, as well as the huge map of Scarwall scare me away. If your party likes playing the roles of freedom fighters (even more so than in CoT), this module can be lots of fun. Diverse with interesting characters it's probably the best of the "city based" adventures. I cannot stress enough how good the general consensus is about this one.
3. Second Darkness: Basically, from nearly everything I read, this one starts off strong and quickly devolves into a hack-n-slash. Easily the weakest of the modules as far as most commentators go. I have very little to say about it as it honestly didn't interest me at all (it doesn't help that I personally hate Drow). If you have a group that prefers combat-heavy modules, this one could be worth reading through.
4. Legacy of Fire: Another of the two I wish I had considered more strongly. If you like exotic settings, it's worth looking at. It has an interesting mechanic that the characters don't just adventure constantly, as there's tons of downtime between modules (and rules for how to handle said downtime). Feelings about it are mixed though but it is constantly rated in the "middle of the pack" as far as the quality of the AP.
5. Council of Thieves: It's very difficult to get a group of free-thinkers on board with this one as it requires a very specific type of character to want to participate. We're just finishing module three and most of the group still has little to no clue what's going on. It's not for lack of trying, it's just that as written the backstory is very subtle, and it requires players to make some pretty mighty leaps of logic and question the right people at the right time. I'm also hearing it has one of the weakest endings (but I'm not there yet). As the first of the new line of Pathfinder ruleset specific modules, it also has tons of typos and mistakes in the first couple modules as they were trying to get it to fit the new rules.
If I had to do it over again, you'd see me seriously considering CotCT or LoF (I know it would be CotCT though just because I wanted to run a city-based adventure).
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I'm very partial to Legacy of Fire (AP 19-24), while it is 3.5, there are some wonderful conversion documents that do all the work for you at Nethys' Compilation site.
The reasoning for Legacy of Fire is the great feel that the campaign has, and the overall story. And I guess I really like the Arabian feel to it.
That being said you really can't go "wrong" with an AP. Rise of the Runelords has a great original D&D feel to it, as well as some epic lore/storyline. Curse of the Crimson Throne and Council of Thieves aren't as lore heavy, but they immerse the characters in a city and pit them to protect that city. Legacy of Fire is similar to RotR in that it has heavy lore and epic feeling, however the feel is completely different. Second Darkness is the "worst" out of the bunch, but I say that lightly if only because I actually like the AP a ton, it's just difficult to run at points.
Hope all goes well!
I'd read Mr. Slanky's descriptions, add in the flavor of each of the campaigns, and either ask or figure out which one your players would have the most fun playing.
I ran Second Darkness (fabulously) under Pathfinder with no troubles. I'm still running Runelords under Pathfinder, again, there's not really any conversion issues, except a handful of treasure items that you could convert if you feel you need to (gloves of dex => belts of dex, etc.)
Go for the flavor you want!
The point that running a current game with the books and PDFs is valid; however there is tons of material already fan-generated for older campaigns as well.
fantastic info all of you. Special thanks to MisterSlanky for a great run through. I will be doing a character building session next friday (hopefully) and will see what the general feel is and go from there. Alizor, thanks for the link i'll check it out. Again thank you all
I don't know if you need another voice to chime in, but...
I wouldn't let "conversion needed" scare you off. The older APs really can just be run as written. The only thing that's caused me to pause just a little bit was coming up with a CMD when players would try a maneuver on the baddies. Everything else, really, you can just leave exactly as-is. (it's not really THAT big a deal that some magic items changed body slots and rereading "Hide" as "Stealth" requires zero prep-time). I don't care how busy or strapped for time you are, don't let it being "out of date" or "requiring conversion" stop you. It's not an issue.
Now that being said, you asked for a specific AP. :-)
If you have very new players, I would shy away from Council of Thieves, as it can set a VERY high bar for roleplay required. The second book in particular will be uncomfortably intense.
If you're a rusty/new GM I would also shy away from Second Darkness: parts of it need a lot of changes to make it more fun and enjoyable. IMHO, it's the only "bad" AP of the bunch.
Considering the other three, you can't make a bad choice. It comes down to aesthetics.
- Runelords: very classic D&D feel. Small town w/ goblins, and escalates up the zoological hierarchy from there. It'll be great for new players (show them what D&D is "supposed" to be like) but it's your call as to whether or not your veterans would be "tired" of the same-old-same old.
- Crimson Throne: urban gameplay. At least for the first half of the campaign. Lots of neat rules expansions (the second book's plague is pretty fun). Some groups really like urban games, some groups will get annoyed if they can't run off into the woods. You know your group.
- Legacy of Fire: definitely the least "traditional." Also the only AP that isn't dark. (if you didn't know, all of Paizo's APs tend to be somewhat macabre) Feels a lot like the game Exalted if you're familiar with that line. My personal favorite of the three.
Happy gaming!
... conversion idea ...
If you have talented players using Pathfinder classes, the 3.5 NPC's are toast. I would not redo every NPC though, just the ones that are meant to be tough fights.
... conversion idea ...If you have talented players using Pathfinder classes, the 3.5 NPC's are toast. I would not redo every NPC though, just the ones that are meant to be tough fights.
Always welcome new voices, definetly not the worlds best DM so help is and opinion is good. Still have time to browse and check in with the veterans to see what they are up for. They like to play non optimal builds for roleplay a lot so that might make it easier for conversions.
Conversion can help just as much as hinder. We've been playing the PRPG since it came out and while some of my players are mixed about it (the ones who prefer playing spellcasters for example) the general consensus is favorable but we still find little differences in the rules compared to what our 3.5 wired brains have come to expect. Converting a 3.5 AP can help you come across some changes you might not have expected.
That leads to another piece of advice: Don't assume anything is the same as it was in 3.5! :P
That leads to another piece of advice: Don't assume anything is the same as it was in 3.5! :P
Good advice. I was doing a good number of things wrong because I thought I still knew the rules. Luckily the conversions have helped me quiet a bit, as well as browsing these boards.
There are lots of already ready conversions for the different APs floating around, so it's not exactly as much work as one would think.
I plan on looking up a lot of rules before hand, and i've noticed a ton of differences, not big ones, but smaller ones that make a difference. I've found some conversions and will be looking those over. I'm leaning more to converting if it will be a better adventure for thisw group of players.
Option B:
Instead of commiting to a full AP right out the gate, look at the recent trilogy of modules based around Lake Encarthan and the Cult of Razmiran.
"Crypt of the Everflame" is not only the first part of the trilogy, but is the first module written using the new rules. As such, it has a handful of sidebars and advice on running the adventure and pointing out difference with the Pathfinder rules from what you might be used to.
That continues thru the adventures "Masks of the Living God" and "City of Golden Death". After those three, your players will have gotten up to around level 7 or so. You could even squeeze in "Realm of the Fellnight Queen" if you wanted to, although it's not related to the trilogy I mentioned.
In any case, by the time you finish that, your players will have some experience playing Pathfinder, will have a better idea of what they might want to play as for the long stretch required for an Adventure Path, and I betchya by then "Serpent's Skull" will have begun release.
I LIKE OPTION B.
That being said, i'll see how it goes friday, still have to read a bit more on rules and get a player consensus.
I have read them all I ran a large part of RORL and am currently playing through Council of Thieves
But I read second darkness an I really like it I have converted it all the Pathfinder and created a thread showing all my conversions so you really woulnt have to do alot of work converting it to Pathfinder
I think there are a couple of parts that some people have a problem with but as a whole the problems to me seem very minor and if you have a group that goes along should be real easy to deal with
If you like Drow and want to make them the evil main enemy then Second Darkness is for you
I don't think you can forget the original AP from these guys and that is Shackled City. I thought this was a great AP. Lots of variety, cool bad guys, interesting twists.
I think Council of Thieves is a solid AP, and it is the only other AP besides Kingmaker that does not require any conversion work, but that being said, I'm beginning to agree that it is one of the weakest of the APs. The story is good, but it's so damned nuanced, without the right group the story might fly over their heads, out of the room, and on to Mars. I'd be careful before picking it.
5. Council of Thieves: It's very difficult to get a group of free-thinkers on board with this one as it requires a very specific type of character to want to participate. We're just finishing module three and most of the group still has little to no clue what's going on. It's not for lack of trying, it's just that as written the backstory is very subtle, and it requires players to make some pretty mighty leaps of logic and question the right people at the right time. I'm also hearing it has one of the weakest endings (but I'm not there yet). As the first of the new line of Pathfinder ruleset specific modules, it also has tons of typos and mistakes in the first couple modules as they were trying to get it to fit the new rules.
I am running a party through module 3 right now and they are not a particularly social party and because of that there is a lot of things that won't necessarily make much sense. I also find that CoT tends to be very much a railroading without a lot of explanation or motivation for the players. Go here do this, go there get this... "but why would I do this? Oh right, I am a good guy and that is what good guys do!"
I have all the books and have read through them and I must say that past mod 4 it gets a little weak, I am pretty disappointed with the ending and am looking for ways to change it (that is assuming we actually get that far).
I don't think you can forget the original AP from these guys and that is Shackled City. I thought this was a great AP. Lots of variety, cool bad guys, interesting twists.
Not to mention it's hard to beat a level 1-20 series of modules -- in a lovely harcover book -- for $30!
I am currently in a shackled city group. Warlock 19, and we are either 1 or 2 sessions from being done. Very good AP, and is a possibility. Can't wait to see the end, my relatively low saves make me a sucker for strong spells, thanks to the cleric its a bit better now. Honestly i thought i'd start running my group before we finished SCAP but if we don;t i might ask the dm to borrow it for my group. hmm, decisions decisions.