|
Okay, I am a new GM/DM and I have been DM'ing for a couple of friends who are way more experienced then myself. Once in awhile I throw evil adventuring parties at them. My players slaughter my groups. They say I am building my groups very well and I play them well they are telling me I am just throwing the wrong classes at them. SO this has me thinking, what beats what on average? I just want to see people's opinions. I will list every class and then you tell me what is optimal at defeating or countering the class. Lets presume everything is 5th level. (BTW I don't want to kill my PC's just give them a run for their money).
So again... 5th level and PF classes only
Barbarian >
Bard >
Cleric >
Druid >
Fighter >
Monk >
Paladin >
Ranger >
Rogue >
Sorcerer >
Wizard >
Barbarian > Enchanter or Illusionist
Bard > Anything really :)
Cleric > Wizard forcing Reflex saves
Druid > Same. Or an archer fighter
Fighter > Enchanter
Monk > 5th level- Barbarian, higher- Maybe ranger. The mobility i tough to counter at higher levels, and their saves make spells less optimal.
Paladin > Ranger or druid
Ranger > Druid or enchanter
Rogue > Caster forcing FORT saves
Sorcerer > Same, or Archer fighter, monk, or paladin
Wizard > Same, or Archer fighter, monk, or paladin
Still, it can be less about the class, and more about the tactics. Intelligent enemies will study their opponents (they have ranks in Know:local too) and discern their weaknesses. Ambushes, traps, hired muscle, poison in the food, all are valuable tactics when dealing with the Badass 4.
It is not about what class is a foil for another class.
It is about tactics and using the environment and terrain to maximum advantage regardless of the class.
Even a group of book standard kobolds making use of traps, narrow quarters, ambushes and hit and run tactics could make a party of 5th level characters cry uncle if the kobolds have the home ground advantage. It is in how you play them.
Low levels:
Classes with more HP and big weapons beat classes without more HP and big weapons.
Higher Levels:
Classes who cast spells beat classes who do not cast spells.
At low levels, spells are fewer and not as powerful, so the guys who hit hard and can take a few hits (barbarians, fighters, paladins, etc) are kings of the battlefield. Druids, Summoners and conjuration wizards also do well because they can use pets and summons to keep from getting wailed on. But a little help from casting also goes a long way.
At mid to high levels, its all about the magic in head to head pc-class vs pc-class. Sure that fighter can dish out alot of damage, but the wizard can win the fight with a single spell, or just dominate the battle with powerful control spells like black tentacles.
Barbarian >. At 5th the base Will save is +1 (or 3 while raging), so clerics with hold person or calm emotions have a chance of shutting down this guy as he'll be exhausted. Remember too, at least 2 sorc bloodlines get a bonus to DC's for will based spells.
Bard >. Cleric with a silence spell engaging this guy/girl will end them.
Cleric >. Poor reflex here, which makes blaster mage's particularly effective. Spells like web and entangle can also shut down a combat healer since they can't reach allies.
Druid >. Same as the cleric. Wildshape can be wrench in your plans, but undead are surprisingly effective since droods have nothing to use against them.
Fighter >. Even worse off Will save wise, but no exhaustion effect from ending a rage. Blasters are good here too. Knock a fighter down to half hp in one strike and you see them act more carefully.
Monk >. Highly mobile foes that are immune to stunning. Ghosts for example.
Paladin >. Summoned elementals or other non-evil creatures.
Ranger >. Anything that isn't on his favored enemy list. Also, fast moving enemies that can take total cover. Thus guy is also weak against Will effects.
Rogue >. Even though they can SA undead they're still vulnerable to most undead abilities. Poor will and a por fort can really screw a rogue over, plus anything that drains ability scores typically drains str or con. Neither of which a rogue has in spades.
Sorcerer >. Poison effects and fast enemies that grapple are your best bet here. Why does it always have to be snakes.
Wizard > Low fort saves means poison is your best bet here. Anything Con based will make him run. Blasters can also sit back and hold onto dispels to counter his spells for a couple of rounds, then unload death.
Yeah, some of that should be obvious, but if I knew the make up of your party I could offer better suggestions. Just remember, undead never make for a bad choice. Even against a party prepped for them.
|
|
my group is.. Necromancer, Two-handed fighter charge build, Cleric, and TWF rogue.
I threw a rogue (ambushed from back on the cleric), barbarian to fighter,
Oracle throwing CC at the group as a whole, with a ranger pelting them from a far.
The fighter practically killed the barbarian in a round. The cleric rendered the rogue helpless. The ranger was feared and the oracle ended fleeing away. I had poor rolls on saves and they have great saves. This was the first group they destroyed. The second group was killed even faster.
Dopplegangers.
Before the session speak to each player individually. Inform each that two of the other players is a doppleganger. To mix it up tell one player there's only one doppleganger in the group.
Then have them attacked by a party that looks like them and fights like them. Make sure at least two of them flee. Don't forget to add a few class levels to each DG.
Sit back and enjoy the rest of the session. :)
Okay, I am a new GM/DM and I have been DM'ing for a couple of friends who are way more experienced then myself. Once in awhile I throw evil adventuring parties at them. My players slaughter my groups. They say I am building my groups very well and I play them well they are telling me I am just throwing the wrong classes at them. SO this has me thinking, what beats what on average? I just want to see people's opinions. I will list every class and then you tell me what is optimal at defeating or countering the class. Lets presume everything is 5th level. (BTW I don't want to kill my PC's just give them a run for their money).
So again... 5th level and PF classes only
Barbarian >
Bard >
Cleric >
Druid >
Fighter >
Monk >
Paladin >
Ranger >
Rogue >
Sorcerer >
Wizard >
There are so many ways to build a class that the build is important also. I was about to ask about the classes your group uses, but I see that has been covered.
my group is.. Necromancer, Two-handed fighter charge build, Cleric, and TWF rogue.
I threw a rogue (ambushed from back on the cleric), barbarian to fighter,
Oracle throwing CC at the group as a whole, with a ranger pelting them from a far.The fighter practically killed the barbarian in a round. The cleric rendered the rogue helpless. The ranger was feared and the oracle ended fleeing away. I had poor rolls on saves and they have great saves. This was the first group they destroyed. The second group was killed even faster.
I would have used another fighter to take on the fighter. One with reach and focused on damage dealing, or at least focused on damage dealing. The reach would be used to trip him if he tried to charge in.
A wizard or sorcerer would be nice to counter the necromancer, and anything else the party has.
I would bring in a druid as the counter to the cleric. I would have him being invisible and summoning things before he and his animal companion join the fray. You could also use the druid to cast entangle so the bad guys start with ranged attacks and any PC's that break free to close on the bad guys will be outnumbered.
The ranger would be a good choice to lay damage on the party from afar.
I know this has somewhat been covered a lot, but really it depends less on the classes, and more on the builds and how you use them. For instance, in a one on one a Bard Gish will always beat a Bard buffer. However, in a party situation, the gish build may be less useful to the combat than the buffer. Having been a GM a lot, and having completely destroyed the plans of other DMs as a PC, here are a few thoughts for you:
1) As a DM you have a greater chance of using better tactics, since you are thinking for all the enemies, and the players should not have oodles of time to sit there and talk about what they want to do (metagaming)
2) Putting the evil party in an advantageous situation helps. Give them all fire resistance and put the encounter near a volcano where the heat deals 1d10 dmg per round.
3) If you don't mind killing a PC here or there, remember that focusing fire always helps, especially if they have a healer. That can put them on the defensive too, if they are more concerned with healing and protecting than bashing your group.
4) There's no such thing as "wrong classes." In a one on one that matters, but in a party it's more about party function. How well they work together is huge. A monk with greater trip paired with a rogue with opportunist will kill something way faster than two defensive fighters, but not necissarily faster than a gish bard and a barbarian.
Hope that helps some, and have fun with it!
At 5th level, things are pretty slanted towards the melee classes, but
Barbarian > Straight fighter, or will save
Bard > Any melee class*
Cleric > wiz/sor blaster, or barbarian
Druid > Rnager, or barbarian
Fighter > wiz/sor or hold person
Monk > Fighter, or barbarian
Paladin > Fighter, or barbarian
Ranger > Fighter, or barbarian
Rogue > cleric, Fighter, or barbarian
Sorcerer > Barbarian or monk
Wizard > Barbarian or monk
At that level it is tough to beat the barbarian onslaught. They bring speed, massive damage, and a better will save then most of the other fighting classes. Mix them in with some wolves or hyenas, and give them a little ranged support (human hating rangers?) and the party will take a licking!
*Note: I'll bet your 5th level party could beat a 13 level bard.
At that level, it should be fairly easy to shut the spellcasters down with somebody wielding a reach weapon; a monk with a longspear can stand adjacent to the Necromancer or Cleric and keep them from 5' stepping to safety.
A fighter or barbarian with a good CMB could easily get up in the rogue's grill, too, since they don't have a full BAB progression; sneak-attacking gets a lot harder if your opponent keeps tripping/disarming you.
As for the fighter... at fifth level, rocking a two-handed style, the best you can probably do (without trying to hose him with a will save spell) would be to throw a REALLY high-hp bruiser at him; basically someone who can just keep him occupied while the other NPCs mess with the rest of the party.
You might also consider staging the fight on entirely/mostly difficult terrain, but having one or more of the NPCs have feats like Acrobatic Steps or Nimble Moves, especially if the 2H fighter likes to charge a lot.
