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So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
This got me to thinking about Iron Heroes, and its philosophy of creating the BBEG. It gave guidelines as to power levels and generally said "have at it, make your bad guy the way you want."
But with 3.x and Pathfinder by extension, you need to add class levels, prestige levels, templates to get the BBEG.
I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
I can build the guy easily enough. But should I publish it, I just know everyone would complain about his lack of class levels and a player could not create a similar character therefore the GM cannot use it, etc etc etc.
Any ideas? Do you think the current model of "show your work" limits creative bad guy creation?
So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
This got me to thinking about Iron Heroes, and its philosophy of creating the BBEG. It gave guidelines as to power levels and generally said "have at it, make your bad guy the way you want."
But with 3.x and Pathfinder by extension, you need to add class levels, prestige levels, templates to get the BBEG.
I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
I can build the guy easily enough. But should I publish it, I just know everyone would complain about his lack of class levels and a player could not create a similar character therefore the GM cannot use it, etc etc etc.
Any ideas? Do you think the current model of "show your work" limits creative bad guy creation?
it does limit creativity. thats why i make special races, classes and feats that are NPC exclusive, some of which are even baddy exclusive. some are even exclusive to specific npcs or baddies due to how niche the class is. i don't show these characters off. i cover them up as much as possible, photographic memory helps with this.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Any ideas? Do you think the current model of "show your work" limits creative bad guy creation?
I agree. I think it's the most valuable lesson I learned from playing 4e. I don't advocate throwing the rules for bad guy creation out the window entirely, but I definitely think you should feel comfortable fudging things. I'm a big fan of cosmetic changes - in your example above, I'd probably start with a creature like a ghost, make a few changes (like to its type) and run with it. For the most part, changing a creature type or the way it looks isn't going to hurt your players experience.
Heck, in an upcoming pathfinder campaign, I intend to use goblins instead of kobolds, but, since I'm too lazy to restat the leveled kobols, I'm just going to describe them as goblins and be done with it. I'm not going to bother rebuilding a stat block for the sake of making it a goblin when the players won't even notice (or really have reason to notice).
Edit: The downside from deviating from the rules is that you potentially can lose out on an amazing wealth of great ideas already well-codified for you. Still, there's a significant range of ways to prepare an enemy, from strictly following the rules, to making minor tweaks, to writing down hp, saves, attacks, and calling it a day.
So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes
Then throw them out and do what you want.
It's your game.
I guess using the bestiary monster charts can give a loose guideline on what you should expect for your monsters in terms of raw stats.
There are already plenty of things players cant get for themselves, namely being monsters. If you want to make something new, go for it. When i DM, if I cant find a class, feat, ect. that fits my needs, i invent one.
to help keep it balanced, i audit my work with my players, letting them comment on various aspects of the design. To keep that from being a spoiler, I dont have them work on anything they will see soon though.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
I'm totally on board with making the bad guy the way you want, but personally I've always found a thrill in finding a way to fit a crazy concept into the rules. There's always that awesome moment when the PC's say: "What WAS that guy!?!"
It sounds like you've got a really neat and engaging idea there. Let's talk it out...I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
Librarian, to me, would be someone who had put tons of ranks into a lot of knowledge skills and who works in a library (maybe ranks in profession?). You could take a level of Bard to get some of the knowledge skills as class skills and then go rogue into shadowdancer. If you picked what few bard spells you had with an idea towards making him feel spell-less.
For example, if his bardic performance and the other abilities associated with it were based on oratory, then it might appear like he was using long dead languages to make his powers work.Just my two e.p.
So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
This got me to thinking about Iron Heroes, and its philosophy of creating the BBEG. It gave guidelines as to power levels and generally said "have at it, make your bad guy the way you want."
But with 3.x and Pathfinder by extension, you need to add class levels, prestige levels, templates to get the BBEG.
I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
I can build the guy easily enough. But should I publish it, I just know everyone would complain about his lack of class levels and a player could not create a similar character therefore the GM cannot use it, etc etc etc.
Any ideas? Do you think the current model of "show your work" limits creative bad guy creation?
What you have him do "behind scenes" does not have to be on the character sheet, or you can give him minimum ranks in stealth if you don't care about him being sneaky. The stuff that he does is combat is what needs to be on the sheet.
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If it were just for a house game it would be no problem at all... just make it and run it.
But I still have KromeDragon and am back working on some adventures to publish (had an 8 month down time due to a job... from which I got fired *sigh*) so, if it is published, it is open for all the world to see. That is the problem.
HOWEVER! Sebastian gave me an idea! A GHOST! It works! It is supposed to be creepy and scary anyway!
See that is why I LOVE this messageboard! When I get stuck you guys come to my rescue! lol
But... back on to the problem (as if I had not found a work around THIS time)...
If you bought a published adventure and the BBEG was a human (as an example) and had special abilities like shadow walking and throat cutting or whatever, and was statted out (and balanced)but purposely left out the "class" info, would that be a problem?
If it were just for a house game it would be no problem at all... just make it and run it.
But I still have KromeDragon and am back working on some adventures to publish (had an 8 month down time due to a job... from which I got fired *sigh*) so, if it is published, it is open for all the world to see. That is the problem.
HOWEVER! Sebastian gave me an idea! A GHOST! It works! It is supposed to be creepy and scary anyway!
See that is why I LOVE this messageboard! When I get stuck you guys come to my rescue! lol
But... back on to the problem (as if I had not found a work around THIS time)...
If you bought a published adventure and the BBEG was a human (as an example) and had special abilities like shadow walking and throat cutting or whatever, and was statted out (and balanced)but purposely left out the "class" info, would that be a problem?
Yes. A published adventure should have everything. Ghost don't normally kill though unless their area is disturbed in most D&D games. A wraith is not tied to an area so that might work. Give him a ghost touch dagger, and use DM/Writer-Fiat to say he remembers certain things from his past life. How much he remembers is up to you. You could even give him a plot device item if you wanted him to still be living.
Yes. A published adventure should have everything.which in this case, with the original idea, I would have had to create an entirely new base class to make it work the way I originally envisaged it. Ugggg!!!!
I prefer the Iron Heroes method myself! lol
What powers will it have in combat, and what level is it supposed to be?
If you can't give that much away since you are trying to publish an adventure I understand.If you dont want to give it the ability to walk through shadows at will then give it an item that allows it to do so a limited number of times per day. I am assuming that is the only strange ability it has though. That way if the PC's get it at a low level it will be harder for them to abuse it.
If you bought a published adventure and the BBEG was a human (as an example) and had special abilities like shadow walking and throat cutting or whatever, and was statted out (and balanced)but purposely left out the "class" info, would that be a problem?
I would (personally) have no issue with a 'cinematic' BBEG, though as a GM I'd like some parameters set about how the guy operates, and some guidelines to apply with rgards to what does which.
I dont need a class based 'stat block' - I'd merrily accept him using some kind of monster template or whatever.
Come to think of it, I could chuck all that out too if he was supposed to be a latter day Jason/Freddy type that needed to be stopped some 'other way' than by sword and spell.
It was one of the redundancies of 'Call of Cthulhu' - why give a stat block to something that can TPK by scratching its nose?
It was one of the redundancies of 'Call of Cthulhu' - why give a stat block to something that can TPK by scratching its nose?
I agree with things like DemonLords, Deities, and any other monster that is not really supposed to be fought or has a ridiculous CR that means the players will never be able to defeat it anyway.
If the monster is meant to be fought in a normal manner then it should have a statblock. Most of the people that buy published modules don't have time to write or rewrite creatures, even if they have the talent to do so.
My 2C.
So, I have an idea for a BBEG. Problem is I can't do it using the standard classes.
This got me to thinking about Iron Heroes, and its philosophy of creating the BBEG. It gave guidelines as to power levels and generally said "have at it, make your bad guy the way you want."
But with 3.x and Pathfinder by extension, you need to add class levels, prestige levels, templates to get the BBEG.
I want a librarian that can walk through shadows, and cut throats. That is about it! He doesn't cast spells. He doesn't pick locks, he doesn't wield a great sword.
I can build the guy easily enough. But should I publish it, I just know everyone would complain about his lack of class levels and a player could not create a similar character therefore the GM cannot use it, etc etc etc.
Any ideas? Do you think the current model of "show your work" limits creative bad guy creation?
Not sure if it's already been posted, but have you looked at the Phantom template from Monster Manual 5? It is a quick and easy template that allows a creature to go ethereal temporarily, and more often based on HD if I recall. Also, maybe the Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic. It allows Hide In Plain Sight and gives a substantial bonus to Hide and Move Silently. Either of those help with your BBEG being able to stalk through shadows...
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Lots of reasons for a DM to give powers to a BBEG that player's can't get. Librarian: read a tome penned by Orcus and became infused with dark powers, a lust for death; made a pact with evil gods for some reason; etc. You don't need a template for those. Just make sure you contemplate the challenge rating when it comes time for that final confrontation...