I wouldn't create a feat named Beast Shape IV.
I'd add Beast Shape IV to the spell-like wildshape abilities but not add magical animals immediately.
I'd allow the feats Vermin Shape and Magical Animal Shape for the druid.
What happens to your extra wildshape feats when you reach 20th level and have unlimited uses per day?
There's the idea of having a spell that grants wildshape uses at limited duration... except.. isn't Pathfinder Wildshape just based off of spells now?
My suggestion would simply to allow the Beastshape spells as Druid spells (they are 3rd through 6th level spells, gained at 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th levels, close to the same levels they gain their improvements, their natural ability being one level sooner).
I'd probably add the elemental body and plant shape spells too.
The nice thing is that this one spell list improvement kills two birds with one stone, as the spell has no limitations (so Beastshape III grants small/medium magical animals) and it would add Beastshape IV (for tiny/large magical animals).
.
One option I'd like to see come back is the "Aspect of Nature" option, allowing small changes to the body, granting claws or flight or scent abilities without changing the whole form.
This was usually balanced with limited bonuses (a single stat bonus or ability per wildshape use) and limited duration (minutes instead of hours), but it allowed keeping your normal body with regards to weapons/armor and speaking ability.
Wildshape means you get the attack forms of the critter, senses, swim, fly and a little stat boost dependent on size adopted.
If you have a STR7 Druid who shapes into a squid you have a STR9 squid (+2STR and +2Natural Armor).
You use the Druid's base stats for the critter NOT the stats in the bestiary. This has balanced the old wildshape which hasn't been nerfed but it has been made balanced and not "broken" which the old wildshape really was. You cannot wildshape to get good physical stats. Read the beast shape spell description.
To get the most out of wildshape the Druid needs to boost STR. In the game I play in the Druid is a killer. He has boosted STR over his WIS cos he uses his spells to buff so save DCs doesn't come into it. Five attacks a round doing d6+8 damage with each attack (STR+Power Attack).
An over high WIS is a trap!
A focussed Wildshaped Druid at mid levels will do more damage a round than a fighter but the power curve flattens out as everyone else "catches up". This is more down to attacks per round. Save DCs don't come into it so WIS doesn't need to be maxed out. Get enough to cast the spells and forget.
All magic items remain functional with the exception of armor (debate about shields still ongoing).
The Aspect of Nature thing was an option from Unearthed Arcana (I think, at work so I can't double check), so complete rules have already been figured out.
I'll have to go check them out and see if the balance changes much between 3.5e and Pathfinder... probably not much, although I need to compare it to the Beastshape spells now.
If I recall, +8 strength/ -4 Dex was one option, at druid level minutes per day duration. Giving up natural attacks, natural armor, etc, but you have +8 strength in your normal form... balanced?
Polymorphing has always been a tough balancing act.
To get the most out of wildshape the Druid needs to boost STR. In the game I play in the Druid is a killer. He has boosted STR over his WIS cos he uses his spells to buff so save DCs doesn't come into it. Five attacks a round doing d6+8 damage with each attack (STR+Power Attack).
An over high WIS is a trap!
I'm not sure about that. You also have the problem of spell access. If your Wis is below your attainable spell level, you lose alot of options and power. I think a balanced approach would be best for players, who are not interested in stealing the show combatwise.
5th level Druid 15 point stat buy, Human.
STR 18 (+2Racial, +1 level)CON 14
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 16 (+2 Stat boost item)
CHA 7
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Natural Spell + one other.
Deinonychus form
BAB +3
STR +4
PA -2
2 Talons +5 (d8+8), Bite +5 (d6+8), 2 Claws +0 (d4+8)
No issues will spell access, keep boosting WIS with level ups and/or Stat boost items.
Most Druid spells are WILL saves and animals have poor WILL saves (as do Fighters and Rogues. Leave Clerics and Wizards to the party Wizard) so a high save DC isn't that important. Most of the time he will be self buffing anyway.
Not the Druid's fault he is out fighting the Fighter :)
A small summary of the ideas up to this point:
Add the Beast-, Elemental- and Plant Shape spells to the druids spell list.
Add the Beast Shape 4 abilities(as another Wild Shape improvement at level 10-12), but without access to magical beasts.
Feats:
Magical Beasts
VerminDoes anybody think, that these additions would break the balance?
Beast Shape 4 lasting 10 hours is overpowered.
10th level Druid 15 point stat buy, Human.
STR 20 (+2Racial, +1 level)
CON 14
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 16 (+2 Stat boost item)
CHA 7
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Natural Spell, Improved natural Attack + some others .
Gorgon form
BAB +7
STR +8
PA -2
Gore +13(3d8+12) Hoovesx2 +8(d8+12) plus Breath Weapon DC 13 Fort save or turn to stone.
Now I haven't done any boosting with buffs or magic items but personally having a PC being able to create a cone 60' every d4 rounds for 10 hours a day will disrupt a game.
I haven't seen if I can frighten myself with vermin but Beast Shape 4 is a big no for me as a GM.
As for adding the various Beast/Plant/Elemental Shape spells again I would say no. That's what Wildshape is for.
EDIT
Again I will mention (as you have already) that Druids deal with natural animals NOT magical animals. Adding magical animals to the list makes no sense to me fluff wise. Adding them has balance issues Beast Shape 4 gives the PC Immunity to elemental attacks (if the magic beast has them), breath weapons(gorgon, chimera, ankheg), poison (phase spider), roar(dragonne), spikes(manticore)...
|
The problem I see here is: The wizard/Sorcerer can siumlate the wild shape ability of the druid, even in a stronger version, but the druid, which innate ability it is, cannot. If there is a deeper logic, please show it to me, because i can't see it."But the Wizard is supposed to be the best at everything!"[/meaningless argument]
I agree that the best class for turning into an animal is the druid.
On the other hand, Druids(sorcerers/wizards too) get shapechange on their 9th level list. This allows all of the other shape/form spells to be used.
1)I agree. That is very "effective" to put it mildly. How about integrating this ability into a feat, with the duration limitation of the spell?
This can't be overpowered, because so would be the access to this spell Wiz/sorc-wise.2)The problem i see here is: The wizard/Sorcerer can simulate the wild shape ability of the druid, even in a stronger version, but the druid, which innate ability it is, cannot. If there is a deeper logic, please show it to me, because i can't see it.
3)Sorry but i strongly disagree here. Why magical animals are fluff-wise nonsensical is beyond me. In FR, Mielikkis favored animal is the unicorn, which is a magical beast. If we follow your argument, it would be fluff-wise "unnatural" for druids of Mielikki to shape into a unicorn.
Sorry, this logic escapes me.
I see your balance-reasoning, but fluff-wise the druid is as near to the source of nature, nature-based magic and magical animals as anyone except pixies/dryads can get.But thats just my humble opinion.
1) Sure a Wizard/Sorcerer can "simulate" the ability but the spell lasts 1 minute per level not an hour. So a 10th level Druid can burn a feat to use Beast Shape 4 for 1 minute a level instead of one of his wildshapes per day? Are you the player of the Druid or GM?
2) So what if the arcane casters can simulate it. They can do it for 1 minute per level. They will never do it as well as a Druid. Let them go and do it with their STR8, poor hit points, rubbish BAB. They'll soon stop and leave it to those who do it best. The Druid. Fluff wise the best I can give is that it isn't on their spell lists because they don't need it, again that is what Wildshape is for. They don't need a spell. And see below for my take on why Druids have nothing to do with magical beasts.
3)Druids get to wildshape into Elementals, Animals and Plants all "natural" world stuff (okay not so much Elementals but thats the old four elements of the world thing going on). Beast Shape 4 gives access to Magical Animals which, by their nature, are not natural, they have (sometimes) greater intelligence and often have supernatural or extraordinary abilities. They don't have a place in the "natural ecology" and are created by magical means. Classic examples the Owlbear. Created by a "deranged wizard (gygax) a long time ago (early '70s)", Cockatrice (from a rooster egg), Griffin (lion/horse/eagle), Sphinx (god only knows how that happened there), Girallions (Stupid humans and their pacts with demons) and Chimera (Dragon/goat/lion hybrid) none of which have a place in "the natural world" from a Druids point of view. These creatures are NOT part of nature but have been created, magically. Hence Animal (Magical).
Now I understand its your game and all that but I believe that is why the Druid is limited to Elemental/Plants/Animals. I'm really just explaining my view point I'm not trying to change your mind.
I would be the player. But honestly your problem with the Beast Shape 4 was, that it is to powerful if you give it a duration in the hour range.
While i totally agree, i don't see why it would be a sacrifice for the druid, if he uses a WS use for BS 4 for 10 minutes. You said before a shape that can blow out breath weapons for 10 hours is killing the balance. So why should a wizard go for a melee-strong form? Or a dexterous one, if he can turn into a form with formidable EX/SU-powers like gazes, strong breath weapons and so on. I don't think BS IV was made for melee forms(also because of the size limitation "large").
As a druid with access to those forms i also wouldn't mind if the duration would be in the 10min-range. But thats just me :)
Okay, apologies for spelling throughout!
1) "I don't think BS IV was made for melee forms(also because of the size limitation "large")."
This is a false assumption I'm afraid. If there was a BS5 then that would allow diminuative and Huge sizes.
BS1 Small/med animals
BS2 Tiny/large animals
BS3 Diminutive/Huge animals. Small/Medium Magical Beasts
BS4 Tiny/Large Magical Beasts
By extension BS5 (if it existed) would include Dim/Huge Magical Beasts.
2) Lets compare the Druid and Wizard if the Druid had the Feat for BS4. For ease I'll use the Gorgon example from earlier.
10th level Druid 15 point stat buy, Human.
STR 20 (+2Racial, +2 level)
CON 14
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 16 (+2 Stat boost item)
CHA 7
HPS 77
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Natural Spell, Improved natural Attack + some others .
Gorgon form
BAB +7
STR +8
PA -2
Gore +13(3d8+12) Hoovesx2 +8(d8+12) plus Breath Weapon DC 13 Fort save or turn to stone.
Again we have no buffs going like Bull's Strength (+2 to hit/damage), Bear's Endurance (+40 hps and +2 to save DC for breath)
11th Wizard 15 point stat buy, human.
STR 8
CON 12
DEX 14
INT 24 (Stat item, Racial, levels)
WIS 10
CHA 10
HPS 49
Feats: Realistic...he ain't going to have physical stuff so I'll say nothing useful.
Again no buffs.
Gorgon form
BAB +5
STR +2
Gore +7(2d8+2), Hooves +2(d6+2) plus Breath Weapon DC12 Fort save.
The balance comes from:
Difference of hps by a third, Wizard can't cast spells in the form (which is a HUGE difference), DPR output for the Wizard (all hit average damage) 22hps, DPR output for the Druid (again all hit, all average) 58.5hps. Essentially thats why Wizards can Beast Shape 4 and Druids can't. And the Druid is a level behind.
For me the Feat would be a must have for any Druid PC which is the first step in the slippery slope. Look at the old Abjurant Warrior, it gave tons of goodies and asked nothing much in return. If you were a Wizard there was no reason not to take it. This Feat is in danger of becoming like that, there is no reason not to have it. It isn't such a big deal for the Wizard to have it as a spell but he wouldn't take three castings of it (which is what the Druid would have effectivly).
3)"So why should a wizard go for a melee-strong form? Or a dexterous one, if he can turn into a form with formidable EX/SU-powers like gazes, strong breath weapons and so on."
The real $64,000 question is why wouldn't a Druid? He gets to be a melee monster AND a whole bunch of Ex/Su powers AND still cast spells, sweet!
4)The Swarm idea I like but have an issue of a single being becoming multiples but thats just fluff and easy to address. And Vermin, the only possible issue there is poison. Try and abuse it with a few test builds and see what happens.
5) Beast Shape has a target of "you". I would suspect there is a darn good reason for this. Imagine a 10th level Paladin BS into a Chimera or a raging Barbarian as a Gorgon. Most of the DC saves are from Constituton and neither class is going to dump that stat. No one cares if a Wizard Beast Shapes because unless the form has any Ex/Su abilities he might as well summon an Erynies and let that do the dirty work. The spell is balanced because the normal user of the spell is weak in melee or has potentially better spells to cast. This is another reason why it could/will cause problems if a Druid could BS4 or wildshape into Magical Beasts. Its not the spell but who receives it that's the problem.
6) Yep the duration of one hour per level for a BS4 scared the cr@p out of me! I hope you understood why. As a GM and Player I'm always trying my hardest to squeeze any mechanical advantage out of the game that I can. I close loop holes and never twist interpretation to suit me but if you were a 20INT Wizard in a world where nasty painful death is just around the corner in your chosen career so would you :)
Can I ask why the urge for Magical Animals as a shape form?
The best suggestion I can give is do some builds and just see how you can unbalance it, really munchkin to death the idea with all the loop holes you can think of.
I hope I'm not coming across like an ar$e, I'm trying to answer this from a balanced perspective and not let any personal opinions get in the way. All the best...errr...beast!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for a reasoned polite discussion!
Using the logical advancement of the BS spells the only reason I can think of that Druids don't get the equivilant of BS4 is that there isn't anything smaller than Diminuative. The BS4 for animals would read "The Druid could change to Miroscopic/Gargantuan animals at 10th level as per Beast Shape spell.
So how about approaching your GM with this suggestion. 10th level Druid can Wildshape like BS4 but it allows him to adopt Swarm/Gargantuan size? The extension is logical and fits with the previous advancment of BS. It might be too much but like I said do a few builds and abuse the hell out of it and see what happens. Just a thought.
Using the logical advancement of the BS spells the only reason I can think of that Druids don't get the equivilant of BS4 is that there isn't anything smaller than Diminuative. The BS4 for animals would read "The Druid could change to Miroscopic/Gargantuan animals at 10th level as per Beast Shape spell.
I think the real reason you can't get "fine" form from the spells is because that would allow the caster to sit on the Paladin's head as a flea. No real chance to attack or detect, and Druids can still cast spells as flea's.
You could even hide among other fleas, like on the Ranger's dog or the Druid's own Wolf. It's basically just too exploitable.
That's really good point!
What about the Swarm suggestion?
I'm not sure about this (not a designer), but I imagine the decision to not include vermin as a potential wildshape target was intentional. Same with constructs, undead, oozes, outsiders, aberrations, etc. It's very difficult to balance PCs as these particular exotic creature types, so it's much easier to limit choices to this list.
That said, I don't think it's completely ridiculous to allow monstrous scorpion forms and the like. Just be specific to what you'll allow if you do allow vermin.
I think the real reason you can't get "fine" form from the spells is because that would allow the caster to sit on the Paladin's head as a flea. No real chance to attack or detect, and Druids can still cast spells as flea's.
You could even hide among other fleas, like on the Ranger's dog or the Druid's own Wolf. It's basically just too exploitable.
That's really good point!
What about the Swarm suggestion?I think BS-IV should be high enough to justify a mediun swarm. You can get into places similar to a Gaseous Form, but have a variety of drawbacks. Druids can still cast, and I suppose you could hide yourself among a Summon Swarm spell, but it still is just prime for a Fireball.
Seeing as how no medium swarm is going to be effective in combat vs CL appropriate encounters, I think it's just fine. And very cool.
Yea, the OP BS4 as Wildshape which in itself is fine without Magical Animals in the mix. I pointed out various reasons why as a GM I would say no to it and I think he understands the reasons why.
He also fancied a Swarm form so I think BS4 allowing swarm/gargantuan wouldn't be too OTT. Having said that I haven't tried munchkining it to death yet so I don't really know.
I just envision the Druid becoming a Locust Swarm and directing other such swarms as retaliation against local farmers for draining the swamp where the Sacred Grove was...
Flavorwise I think it is great.
But I would like to see what you could do with the opposite end of the BS4 spell! How nasty would a Druid be wildshaped into a T-Rex be? Would it be OTT? If not then I can't see any reason why any GM would disallow it as a houserule.
Hi,
to be honest: I don't see a big problem.
The gargantuan animal list is very short, and the T-Rex don't seem to be a good choice. It has only one attack, modified by the druids own strength and con, he would make a single +12 attack with 4d6+6 damage.
This is based on my character(including a potential st-bonus from a magic item or spell AND the BS4-Bonus).The Roc is far more powerful, with 3 attacks in the 2d6+x range.
But even that doesn't strike me as overpowered, considering that the druid has to keep his own stats.At level 12 most fighters have a higher melee, 3 attacks, and do comparable, or more damage.
In any case, if someone is concerned about fighting power, why not cancel the attack-option? Invent some reason why you can't attack in these forms. Handling is to awkward, because ist so much different from the other forms size-wise, or some other reasonable explaination.
I'm interested in the versatility, not the combat :)
The Roc is a situational as is T-Rex. 10' corridor is the GMs friend!
As a GM I would have no problem with wildshape as BS4 at 10th lvl with the swarm/gargantuan options.
The Roc is a situational as is T-Rex. 10' corridor is the GMs friend!
As a GM I would have no problem with wildshape as BS4 at 10th lvl with the swarm/gargantuan options.Exactly! Gargantuan creatures or even huge/large are only of any use, if you have enough space. Underground, in ruins, cities etc. this is definately not good idea ;)
Spacelard, maybe you can help me with another druid-topic.
There are very few feats for the druid available.
Are they any indications for a supplement in the near future which could include more feats for the druid?If not, are there any good conversion rules regarding druid feats? I know its very difficult, because the wild shape ability has been changed so radically.
For help in this regard i would be grateful :)
What style of Druid do you want to play?
Or would you just like for me to make assumptions and create a list of feats and why?
What style of Druid do you want to play?
Or would you just like for me to make assumptions and create a list of feats and why?I thought about a mixture of shapeshifter and summoner. I know, if i try both, i won't be very effective at both, but thats ok.
I've taken Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning.
The next ones would be Thoughness and the Vermin feat we talked about. But are there any further summoning-strengthening feats, or feats like Extra Wild Shape i could use from 3.5 books, without breaking the game?Stuff like that..:)
BUT, if you have a list of feats YOU think would be a good idea, and why, i would really like that too.
Feat wise I think you are going to be spot on for a Nature's Ally spammer. This is a great route to take for a Druid as you can take a wide selection of spells as you can swop out anything not used for NA.
Stats WIS>DEX>CHA>CON>INT>STRPersonally I would start with a WIS16, you won't need anything higher really as the focus won't be on save spells. Let the party Wizard worry about that. A good CHA is needed to help "push" NA summoned animals to do exactly what you want. Good DEX for a ranged weapon. Other stats can be dumped as you don't want to be in combat. Let your NA or Animal Companion do that.
Use a NET!
Accept the -4 penalty to hit from non-prof its a touch attack and can entangle (-2 for them to hit and -4 to DEX) its a ranged weapon so you DEX will help out.
Think about giving up your Animal Companion! Take Weather Domain. Have a look, seriously.
Feat wise you're spot on for that type of Druid. Anything else is gravy
Agile Maneuvers: Help with CMB if you wildshape into a critter with lots of grapple.
Animal Affinity
Improved Initiative: Always handy
Heavy Armor Prof: For when you get your ironwood/dragonhide plate with "wild" enchantment.
Natural Spell: Obviously!
Point Blank Shot Feat Tree: If you plan to use ranged weapons a lot.
Power Attack: If you want to give your Wildshapes a boost.
Toughness: Always good.
Bestiary Feats
Ask first if your GM will allow them.
Quicken SLA: 3xQuickened Wildshapes?
Improved Natural Attack
Improved Natural Armor
Skills
Knowledge Nature
Perception
Handle Animal
Magic Items:
Druid's Robes for extra wildshape.
I try and stick to PF core as 3.5 stuff can be overpowered or just don't work the same way in PF.
Search the boards for DRUID'S CODE. Its a brief write up which I gave out to the party's Druid for some background fluff.
My personal 1st level Druid would be Human
15 point buy. Racial Bonus into STR or DEX (depending on style)
STR:18 CON:12 DEX:14 INT:10 WIS:14 CHA:8
Feats: Spell Focus(Conj), Augment Summoning.
Focussed on Buffs and Summoning. Later levels can wildshape into a decent combat form (medium dino). Using a net and with a decent CMB he can entangle critters or wildshpe into a grapple form.
Downside is his animal handle skill which will be a bit gimped so "pushing" them will be harder to do something other than attack.
Pump the WIS up as the Druid goes up levels and he can by a Headband to give a boost later.
DEX Druid would focus on stealth and scoutyness in wildshape.
If playing a higher stat buy game push WIS higher or CON dependent on Toughness feat and style of play.
We are using the 20 point buy, so i had a little more freedom.
My stats are: St 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16 Ch 8
A jack of all trades so to speak ;)Maybe i can work an St later. Buffs and items will help later on.
Thanks again for your insights.
No problem.
I think you'll have a blast playing a Druid.Personally I think the Net is a neat "weapon" as it is a touch attack. Give it a go in game and just see.
No problem.
I think you'll have a blast playing a Druid.
Personally I think the Net is a neat "weapon" as it is a touch attack. Give it a go in game and just see.The net is neat, but there are a few problems. Its exotic, so i get a -4 penalty for using it. Even with the ranged touch-advantage i won't hit s#&@ the first 5 or so levels. But maybe its an option for later.
Will try it ;)
Touch AC is generally a lot lower than a "normal" AC. Mr Nasty Fighter with an AC24 probably has a touch AC around 11-13. That is when the net gets thrown about. Even with a -4 NWP your odds of hitting are improved.
And it will give your GM a surprise!