I'm trying to figure out some to hit numbers and I'm absolutely confused. Pertinent info: Level 6 Human Fighter.
Stat Block = STR(17) Dex(15) Con(13) Int(11) Wis(12) Cha(9)
Half-Plate Armor
Primary Hand Weapon: Longsword
Secondary Hand Weapon: Short Sword
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, and Weapon Training (Light).
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
And...
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
BAB=+6/+1
So here's my question. Can this level 6 fighter make three attacks in one round using a full attack action. Sequence: Short Sword (+8 = +6 BAB, +1 (Weapon Training Light), STR bonus +3, Two Weapon Penalty -2), Long Sword (+2 = BAB +1, STR bonus +3, Two Weapon Penalty -2), Short Sword (+2 = BAB 0, +1 (Weapon Training Light), STR bonus +3, Two Weapon Penalty -2).
I'm not sure how to interpret the words additional and extra. I know he can choose to attack with his Short Sword first, but then does he just get the one extra attack with his primary hand weapon, or does the +6/+1 mean that the rules are saying he automatically gets two attacks, and the additional extra attack is a third attack with the Short Sword? If he only had a Greatsword he'd get two attacks because
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough
means that the rules are saying at this level you've learned to strike twice in the same round, just with a lesser chance "to hit" with the second strike. In my mind that means the dual-wielding character at this level should get that third extra attack. Am I off the deep end with this, or am I right?
HELP!
You are quite right when you think about 3 attacks, just miscalculating the bonuses
First main hand attack: Long sword(+6 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +7
Firs Off hand attack: Short sword (+6 BAB +3 STR bonus +1 Light weapon Training -2 Two weapon penalty =) +8
Second main hand attack: Long sword(+1 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +2
Why is this way? Wieldin two weapons(or a double weapon) allows you to make only one attack per round with your off-hand weapon and if your off-hand weapon is light your penalty are less than the ones you get with a non-light weapon.
Further more, the extra attack is gained at the highest attack bonus that you have, +6 in this example
Naturally, you can choose to revert the order of the two first attacks, making the sequence: First off hand attack +8, First main hand attack +7, Second main hand attack +2.
Hope this helps^^
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You are quite right when you think about 3 attacks, just miscalculating the bonuses
First main hand attack: Long sword(+6 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +7
Firs Off hand attack: Short sword (+6 BAB +3 STR bonus +1 Light weapon Training -2 Two weapon penalty =) +8
Second main hand attack: Long sword(+1 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +2Why is this way? Wieldin two weapons(or a double weapon) allows you to make only one attack per round with your off-hand weapon and if your off-hand weapon is light your penalty are less than the ones you get with a non-light weapon.
Further more, the extra attack is gained at the highest attack bonus that you have, +6 in this exampleNaturally, you can choose to revert the order of the two first attacks, making the sequence: First off hand attack +8, First main hand attack +7, Second main hand attack +2.
Hope this helps^^
+1 she's got this dead right. Your damage bonus should be +3 for longsword, and +4 for your short sword. Kinda strange that your off hand weapon deals more damage than your main hand lol.
+1 she's got this dead right. Your damage bonus should be +3 for longsword, and +4 for your short sword. Kinda strange that your off hand weapon deals more damage than your main hand lol.You are quite right when you think about 3 attacks, just miscalculating the bonuses
First main hand attack: Long sword(+6 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +7
Firs Off hand attack: Short sword (+6 BAB +3 STR bonus +1 Light weapon Training -2 Two weapon penalty =) +8
Second main hand attack: Long sword(+1 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +2Why is this way? Wieldin two weapons(or a double weapon) allows you to make only one attack per round with your off-hand weapon and if your off-hand weapon is light your penalty are less than the ones you get with a non-light weapon.
Further more, the extra attack is gained at the highest attack bonus that you have, +6 in this exampleNaturally, you can choose to revert the order of the two first attacks, making the sequence: First off hand attack +8, First main hand attack +7, Second main hand attack +2.
Hope this helps^^
It helps a ton, thank you much! :)
Dude, I think I'd get rid of that longsword and wield two short swords. I may be wrong, but average damage would be the same but too hit would go up. For flavor, one short sword could be at the 'long' end of the spectrum, and the other at the 'short' end.
You are quite right when you think about 3 attacks, just miscalculating the bonuses
First main hand attack: Long sword(+6 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +7
Firs Off hand attack: Short sword (+6 BAB +3 STR bonus +1 Light weapon Training -2 Two weapon penalty =) +8
Second main hand attack: Long sword(+1 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +2Why is this way? Wieldin two weapons(or a double weapon) allows you to make only one attack per round with your off-hand weapon and if your off-hand weapon is light your penalty are less than the ones you get with a non-light weapon.
Further more, the extra attack is gained at the highest attack bonus that you have, +6 in this exampleNaturally, you can choose to revert the order of the two first attacks, making the sequence: First off hand attack +8, First main hand attack +7, Second main hand attack +2.
Hope this helps^^
Landir could you point out to me where in the rules it explains that the off-hand weapon only gets one attack per round and that it is at the maximum BAB? I'd appreciate it, thanks.
Also, you get to choose which hand is your "off-hand" attack in any given round. In your case, you could make the short sword hand, be your main hand, and your longsword hand be your off-hand.
Landir could you point out to me where in the rules it explains that the off-hand weapon only gets one attack per round and that it is at the maximum BAB? I'd appreciate it, thanks.
Two-Weapon Fighting on p.202 states:
If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
You know, I'm not sure if it expicitly states anywhere that the off-hand attack is at your highest BAB.
Landir could you point out to me where in the rules it explains that the off-hand weapon only gets one attack per round and that it is at the maximum BAB? I'd appreciate it, thanks.You are quite right when you think about 3 attacks, just miscalculating the bonuses
First main hand attack: Long sword(+6 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +7
Firs Off hand attack: Short sword (+6 BAB +3 STR bonus +1 Light weapon Training -2 Two weapon penalty =) +8
Second main hand attack: Long sword(+1 BAB +3 STR bonus -2 Two weapon penalty =) +2Why is this way? Wieldin two weapons(or a double weapon) allows you to make only one attack per round with your off-hand weapon and if your off-hand weapon is light your penalty are less than the ones you get with a non-light weapon.
Further more, the extra attack is gained at the highest attack bonus that you have, +6 in this exampleNaturally, you can choose to revert the order of the two first attacks, making the sequence: First off hand attack +8, First main hand attack +7, Second main hand attack +2.
Hope this helps^^
I'm not sure where it states it in the book, but when you look at Improved Two Weapon Fighting, the "Normal" or "without this feat" text describes that you can only make one attack with your off-hand reguardless of base attack bonus.
also, you want to use your longsword as your main-hand, because wielding a weapon that is not a light weapon in your off-hand incurs an additional -2/-2 penalty. your main-hand weapon is the one that gets the extra attack for having a +6 BAB. That extra attack has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting, but is a result of having a BAB of 6 or higher. In order to get a second attack with your off-hand weapon, you need to take the feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
also, you want to use your longsword as your main-hand, because wielding a weapon that is not a light weapon in your off-hand incurs an additional -2/-2 penalty. your main-hand weapon is the one that gets the extra attack for having a +6 BAB. That extra attack has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting, but is a result of having a BAB of 6 or higher. In order to get a second attack with your off-hand weapon, you need to take the feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
I get the "using the longsword in the primary hand" (unless I go with Kratzee's suggestion and dual-wield Short Swords to get the +4 damage), but you can choose to strike with the offhand first, and according to Landir, that attack still happens with the full +6 BAB. That initial attack being the extra attack, and then I can take the two Longsword attacks in succession +6 BAB, +1 BAB. If I take the Improved Two Weapon Fighting (assuming of course I find a way to up my Dex by 2), as I read the language anyway, I would then get 4 total attacks, the last one with the Short Sword would be at a -5 penalty, does that also include the same -2 from Two Weapon Fighting bringing the total of that fourth attack to -7?
I see a lot of possible scenarios here First: -3 = BAB 0, STR bonus +3, Weapon Training Light +1, -5 ITW Feat, -2 TW Feat? Or Second: -2 = BAB 0, STR +3, Weapon Training Light +1, -5 ITW Feat.
OR As with the Two Weapon extra strike the Improved Two Weapon Feat gives another extra attack whose -5 is balanced by either the +6 BAB or the +1 BAB
Those last two could shake out four different ways... First: +5 = -5 ITW Feat, +6 BAB, +1 Weapon Training Light, STR bonus +3. Or "+"0 = -5 ITW Feat, +1 BAB, +1 Weapon Training Light, STR bonus +3. Or yet again +2 = -5 ITW Feat, -2 TW Feat, +6 BAB, +3 STR bonus, +1 Weapon Training Light. Or, last but not least -2 = -5 ITW Feat, -2 TW Feat, +1 BAB, +3 STR Bonus, +1 Weapon Training Light.
Holy crap I feel like I'm back in algebra. So help me out. If I go Improved Two Weapon fighting (again assuming I up the DEX somehow), what's the bonus for the other extra attack?
You are making it too complicated - let's assume a simpler scenario for illustration:
main-hand: longsword
off-hand: short sword
feats: two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting
base attack: +6/+1
strength bonus: 0
your iterative attacks will be thus:
longsword(first attack) - +4 (+6 bab, -2 for twf);
short sword(first attack) - +4 (+6 bab, -2 for twf);
longsword(second attack) - -3 (+6 bab, -2 for twf, -5 for second attack);
short sword(second attack) - -3 (+6 bab, -2 for twf, -5 for second attack);
Thus, you can see, on the second attack with each weapon, you are suffering a cumulative -7 attack penalty: -2 for two-weapon fighting, -5 for it being your second iterative attack with that weapon. From this point, you can easily figure out the attack bonuses with various feats/class features and strength bonuses, simply by adding them to the numbers above (in your case, +3 str on both attacks and +1 weapon training class feature on your off-hand, resulting in these numbers: +7/+8/+0/+1). In your current situation, not having improved two-weapon fighting yet, your iterative attacks are: longsword, short sword, longsword (+7/+8/+0)
I hope this was clear and understandable.
Your question should not be 'Why DO I get my normal BAB with my off hand attack" but why WOULDN'T I?
Your off hand is it's own arm. It's first strike in the round would be at full BAB just like any other first strike in a round of melee. Wielding a second weapon allows another attack. What are attacks based on? BAB.
The only penalies you take are for using two weapons at once, since it is plain hard to do. If you want to get better at it you train more (IE take feats). The more training you invest the more accurate all your attacks get and the more offhand attacks you get.
But all melee combat is based on BAB and your first attack with any and/or both hands starts with your BAB plus appropriate mod's.
You are making it too complicated - let's assume a simpler scenario for illustration:
main-hand: longsword
off-hand: short sword
feats: two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting
base attack: +6/+1
strength bonus: 0
your iterative attacks will be thus:longsword(first attack) - +4 (+6 bab, -2 for twf);
short sword(first attack) - +4 (+6 bab, -2 for twf);
longsword(second attack) - -3 (+6 bab, -2 for twf, -5 for second attack);
short sword(second attack) - -3 (+6 bab, -2 for twf, -5 for second attack);Thus, you can see, on the second attack with each weapon, you are suffering a cumulative -7 attack penalty: -2 for two-weapon fighting, -5 for it being your second iterative attack with that weapon. From this point, you can easily figure out the attack bonuses with various feats/class features and strength bonuses, simply by adding them to the numbers above (in your case, +3 str on both attacks and +1 weapon training class feature on your off-hand, resulting in these numbers: +7/+8/+0/+1). In your current situation, not having improved two-weapon fighting yet, your iterative attacks are: longsword, short sword, longsword (+7/+8/+0)
I hope this was clear and understandable.
Simpler scenario yes, but where'd my +1 BAB attacks go? Assume I have Improved Two Weapon fighting, then at level 6 I have +6/+1 BAB the setup you showed has four +6 BAB attacks listed. That can't be right. Landir's setup showed +6 Longsword, +6 Short Sword, then +1 Longsword. Wouldn't that then in your explanation be +6 Longsword, +6 Shorsword, +1 Longsword, + 1 Shortsword? At least for the BAB anyway, and I can add the relevant bonuses. OR does that new extra attack afforded by Improved Two Weapon Fighting also happen with the highest attack bonus which would make it +6 Longsword, +6 Short Sword, +1 Longsword, +6 Short Sword (though that would then be mostly negated by the -5 penalty for the extra fourth attack). I'm not trying to make this complicated, I'm just trying to understand which of the multiple attack bonuses applies to the new extra attack afforded by Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
1) I noticed that the intial computation had the same damage for main hand and off-hand weapon. Don't forget that Light weapon deal only half the Strength modifier.
2) As Mabven said, if you really want to use a longsword and a shortsword, you have the following choices:
- longsword as main weapon, shortsword in off-hand. You get two attacks with your longsword and one with the shortsword.
- shortsword as main weapon, longsword in off-hand. You get two attacks with your shortsword and one with the longsword. All attacks get an additional -2 to attack due to the fact that your off-hand weapon isn't a Light weapon.
3) The +1 attack comes from your +6 BAB and -5 cumulative modifier for iterative attacks. And the result of -3 is wrong: +6-5-2 = -1
1) I noticed that the intial computation had the same damage for main hand and off-hand weapon. Don't forget that Light weapon deal only half the Strength modifier.
2) As Mabven said, if you really want to use a longsword and a shortsword, you have the following choices:
- longsword as main weapon, shortsword in off-hand. You get two attacks with your longsword and one with the shortsword.
- shortsword as main weapon, longsword in off-hand. You get two attacks with your shortsword and one with the longsword. All attacks get an additional -2 to attack due to the fact that your off-hand weapon isn't a Light weapon.3) The +1 attack comes from your +6 BAB and -5 cumulative modifier for iterative attacks. And the result of -3 is wrong: +6-5-2 = -1
Actually the Double Slice feat allows full Strength damage to the off-hand weapon which is why I took it. I also put the shortsword in the off-hand so that the total penalty was 2 for each weapon. Taking Light Weapon Training gives me an additional +1 to both hit and damage rolls with the shortsword. All this I understand, and Landir explained the fact that the extra attack provided by the Two Weapon Fighting Feat is taken at my maximum BAB (in this case +6). My new question is: if I now were to take Improved Two Weapon Fighting. I get another extra attack. This attack is taken at a -5 penalty, but what does the -5 apply to, my full attack bonus of +6, or my additional attack bonus provided at sixth level of only +1. In addition does the -5 already encompass the -2 for dual wielding with Two Weapon Fighting, or does it get added to (or more to the point subtracted from) that -2 penalty, making the total penalty for this new extra attack -7?
Actually the Double Slice feat allows full Strength damage to the off-hand weapon which is why I took it. I also put the shortsword in the off-hand so that the total penalty was 2 for each weapon. Taking Light Weapon Training gives me an additional +1 to both hit and damage rolls with the shortsword. All this I understand, and Landir explained the fact that the extra attack provided by the Two Weapon Fighting Feat is taken at my maximum BAB (in this case +6). My new question is: if I now were to take Improved Two Weapon Fighting. I get another extra attack. This attack is taken at a -5 penalty, but what does the -5 apply to, my full attack bonus of +6, or my additional attack bonus provided at sixth level of only +1. In addition does the -5 already encompass the -2 for dual wielding with Two Weapon Fighting, or does it get added to (or more to the point subtracted from) that -2 penalty, making the total penalty for this new extra attack -7?
If you take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 6th level, when fighting with two weapons, your BAB sequence on a full attack is:
+6/+6/+1/+1
Add modifiers as needed.
Or, if you prefer it with the -2 penalty for two-weapon fighting added in:
+4/+4/-1/-1
Tut mir leid für Double Slice
For an example of attack values for *TWF, take a look at the Monk Table.
The attack bonuses listed correspond to a Fighter using TWF from level 1, ITWF from level 8, and GTWF from level 15.
dude, your making this harder then it is.
forget the +6/+1, because that is totally confusing you in the first place. There is no algebra needed to to this cause it simple long addition and subtraction.
Your BAB is +6, not +6/+1, because you have a +6 you get to make a second attack at -5 to BAB. That is where the +6/+1 come from.
Now fighting with a second weapon, whether or not you have the TWF feat, gives you an Off Hand attack at your current BAB. Of course apply bonus and penalties. When you get Improved TWF, your Off Hand gets the -5 to make another attack.
so:
Primary Hand: +6/+1
Off Hand: +6/+1
those are your bases, then apply what ever bonuses and penalties.
Its simple math.
dude, your making this harder then it is.
forget the +6/+1, because that is totally confusing you in the first place. There is no algebra needed to to this cause it simple long addition and subtraction.
Your BAB is +6, not +6/+1, because you have a +6 you get to make a second attack at -5 to BAB. That is where the +6/+1 come from.
Now fighting with a second weapon, whether or not you have the TWF feat, gives you an Off Hand attack at your current BAB. Of course apply bonus and penalties. When you get Improved TWF, your Off Hand gets the -5 to make another attack.
so:
Primary Hand: +6/+1
Off Hand: +6/+1those are your bases, then apply what ever bonuses and penalties.
Its simple math.
Thank you to Anthony, Louis, and Darkon. Your explanations have most decidedly cleared it up for me. As Darkon said, I was confused by the fact that the BAB table showed the +6/+1. I didn't understand that that meant because my BAB was +6 I got the second attack with the -5 factored in. If I'm understanding this correctly then, at 6th level even without two weapon fighting, I get two attacks. Factor in dual wielding even without the Two Weapon fighting feat, I would get three attacks, but would have to factor in the penalties. WITH Two Weapon fighting, I still only get the three attacks, but the penalties are lessened (then lessened even more because the off-hand weapon is light). If I added in Improved two weapon fighting I would get four attacks (two with the off-hand) and then just factor in the appropriate penalties.
Thank you all very much for helping to simplify what I made complicated!
:)
That's it.