I'm likely going to be playing a Diviner Wizard for the first time next week. I love the Forewarned power, but I do have some questions regarding its implications. For the purposes of this example, lets assume the following:
A) Enemies are in a standard ambush. They've hidden in bushes or other concealment/cover/whatever.
B) None have actual invisibility or other magical hiding methods. Just mundane Stealth checks. (and let's not have this devolve into a discussion of Stealth mechanics please)
C) All PCs in the party have missed their perception checks to notice them.
So as I understand it, when the ambushers decide to attack they would roll initiative. Even though the Diviner has not noticed them, he would also be permitted to roll initiative, though he'll still be flat-footed until he takes an action.
My question is, what can the Diviner do if he rolls higher initiative than the ambushers? Presumably this is kind of like a 'Spidey Sense'. He can't see any danger, but he knows something is up. With his Standard action in the surprise round he could presumably cast a defensive spell of some sort. Or use a Move action (in place of the Standard) to make another Perception check to try and see what the danger is. Can he shout a warning to his party (speaking being a free action), and if so, what mechanical benefit does that give?
I don't think it's a good idea to get into using Move Actions for Perception checks, it just isn't supported by the rules (for one, there's several ways to get an extra Move Action/round, which would then allow 2 Perceptions/round routinely)
In this case, if the Wizard is acting first (but doesn't know the exact location/ identity of attackers), he can't do anything requiring targetting or specific knowledge of attackers unless he delays the micro-second after they have completed their action (giving up Initiative advantage) but anything that doesn't require that (Invisibility, etc) can happen before hand.
If you want to rationalize this as "Spidey Sense" (essentially acting before his senses have formed an image yet, but have registered the danger), that seems completely in-line with the flavor of the ability, and in any case it doesn't seem like a problem in actual game play: The Diviner player is simply aware of the fact that Initiative Combat has started and that they have won Init yet don't have Perception information to target enemies yet - not that different in play than a Fireball exploding amidst your group, and you don't know their location of it's caster. I would go with the "Spidey Sense" explanation to tell players what their character has perceived, i.e. that Initiative/Combat has started but from where/what distance they can't tell yet.
Good Question though,
and of course at high levels Diviners will almost always win Initiative (esp. with the Nat 20 ability)
I don't think it's a good idea to get into using Move Actions for Perception checks, it just isn't supported by the rules (for one, there's several ways to get an extra Move Action/round, which would then allow 2 Perceptions/round routinely)
Actually, its supported explicitly by the rules (italics mine):
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
I would go with the "Spidey Sense" explanation to tell players what their character has perceived, i.e. that Initiative/Combat has started but from where/what distance they can't tell yet.
And what would be the affects of yelling out "Ambush!" or whatever, in-game? I can see reasonable arguements both for and against everything from the PCs all getting to roll Initiative (perhaps with a penalty) to also act in the surprise round, a circumstance bonus to Reflex/AC (though still flat-footed, and no more than normal AC), or nothing at all. Thoughts?
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Yes.
And what would be the affects of yelling out "Ambush!" or whatever, in-game? I can see reasonable arguements both for and against everything from the PCs all getting to roll Initiative (perhaps with a penalty) to also act in the surprise round, a circumstance bonus to Reflex/AC (though still flat-footed, and no more than normal AC), or nothing at all. Thoughts?
The only thing with this, is how does it differ that much from a non-Diviner situation where, say, only the party Ranger has made their Perception check to notice the ambush and act on the Surprise Round and then wins Initiative? I've never seen anybody play that as the Ranger can shout to let others act in the Surprise Round. I also think flat-footed should definitely apply unless you have taken an action.
I think that that does get to the point (which I cut from my previous post) that combat events are supposed to really be happening nearly simultaneously, the differences in Initiative are only the slightest micro-seconds for the most part, though for ease of play we ignore that. If a character isn't acting in the Surprise Round, being informed there is an ambush mid-way thru the Surprise Round doesn't let them act in the Surprise Round because everyone able to act HAVE been moving/doing their thing the entire round, Initiative just represents speed or micro-seconds of reflex, etc.
Being able to always do your own action (on top of a scaling Init bonus) is good enough on it's own.
(I'm playing a Diviner right, myself) :-)
By the rules, it has no effect at all. The benefit applies only to the Diviner, no matter how much yelling he or she does.
Rather than giving a bonus or some other benefit, you could simply say that since both sides are now aware of each other, that no surprise round takes place and combat proceeds normally.
I would just go with the rules, however. If you allow the diviner's ability to totally disrupt surprise for everyone, or even have a chance of doing so, your DM is likely to start using the ban hammer. The diviner's ability is cool enough already. If you push it, you might lose it.
Hope this helps.
Thanks folks. For the record, I agree that there shouldn't be any mechanical advantage for the rest of the party. Stuff just happens too fast. Probably enough time for him to throw up Mage Armor, along with an "Oh Shi-".
I posted the question because I know my group, and the first time this comes up they'll be clamoring for the DM to let them act, or at least get some kind of bonus. Now I can have a little ammo in my pocket to backup the DM. :)
For what it's worth, this is actually an Arcane Archer build I've been working on. Looks pretty decent on paper, especially once he gets a few more levels under his belt.
Thanks folks. For the record, I agree that there shouldn't be any mechanical advantage for the rest of the party. Stuff just happens too fast. Probably enough time for him to throw up Mage Armor, along with an "Oh Shi-".
I posted the question because I know my group, and the first time this comes up they'll be clamoring for the DM to let them act, or at least get some kind of bonus. Now I can have a little ammo in my pocket to backup the DM. :)
For what it's worth, this is actually an Arcane Archer build I've been working on. Looks pretty decent on paper, especially once he gets a few more levels under his belt.
In this situation where your party is all huddled around the campfire about to be beset upon by ambushing goons, a great spell to cast would be Haste.
For the record I don't believe you get swift actions on a surprise round, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Your diviner could always use the ready action during the suprise round to react to the incoming ambushers offensively as well, assuming you win initiative.
Invisibility plus 5' step.
Invisibility plus 5' step.
+1
This is what I thought, I just wish you could quicken the invis and cast haste.
Well, I've always been under the impression that you can use a swift action in the surprise round, so quicken should work. You can also try to talk your DM into allowing a caster to research Swift Invisibility from 3.5. It only last till the beginning of your next round, but should still allow the forewarned diviner to avoid the ambush in most cases.
Swift Invis. is also a fantastic spell for martial diviners (F/MU), since it allows for a full attack, go invis., then take a 5' step. A couple of rounds of "I can hit you, but you can't hit me!" is enough to put the fear of gish into even the most hardened martial opponents.
Just to sate my own curiosity I looked it up:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Iffy I suppose. Says you can take a standard or move action, as well as free actions. Does not mention swift, though I do suspect this language might be so old as to be from a time before swift actions were a thing, like Feather Fall used to be cast as a free action IIRC.
Well, maybe one of the lovable, talented, and oh so appreciated Paizo folks will wander by....
Surprise rounds happen for many reasons. The most obvious two are:
1. Your PCs are unaware of an ambush (but the ambushers are aware of you).
2. At least one of the PCs are aware of the enemy when they are not aware of you.
Note that Forewarned should always work for both cases - if the enemy is aware of you but you are not aware of them, at least you are forewarned and able to act, but in the second case when no enemy is aware of you, but at least one of your allies is aware of the enemy, you are still forewarned and able to act in the surprise round.
And finally, the one that probably will happen the most:
3. Nobody is aware of anything. Both sides (PCs and monsters) blunder into each other unaware. But - you are forewarned and you get your very own surprise round.
The ability says "always act in the surprise round" so that means "always" because it says "always" and there is always a surprise round when at least some members (even if it is only one member) of even just one side is unaware of the start of the encounter. Or to put it another way, if even just one monster doesn't know about your group, or if even just one PC doesn't know about the monsters, there is a surprise round unless EVERYBODY on both sides is unaware - and that will never happen because you are always Forewarned.
So, the only time you should not have a surprise round is when all the PCs know the monsters are there and all the monsters know the PCs are there, and even then, I could possibly mount an argument that your Forewarned diviner still gets a surprise round because you know the fight is going to start just a moment before everyone else, but I could also lose that debate.
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Invisibility plus 5' step.
Fighter: How did you know there was an ambush?
Wizard: I'm a wizard. I have a sixth sense about these kinds of things.
Fighter: You know who else has a sixth sense about these kinds of things...
...traitors.