HI all!
I've been playing the game for quite some time and for whatever reason, my groups and I have always stayed away from grapples in general - yet I see it tossed around quite a bit as some sort of game-ending maneuver. How is this? From 3.x to PF, I've yet to see any real significance to it, or only highly circumstantial benefits, so ... please explain it and handle the things I and my groups have sort of latched onto as common knowledge regarding it.
From what I've seen, unless you're an unarmed expert, it's kind of a waste. Why?
*Loss of iterative attacks - unclear, but this is at least how it seems to us. If you're grappling, it says you can use small weapons (and 3.x had a feat specifically for this to take off penalties - another that added a lot to the base inflicted damage). In any case, the implication seems to be a LOT of rolls to start a grapple (simplified greatly by PF's changes, though) - once you're in you can either pin, attack (once - see next point), or let go. If you attack, you have to maintain it - an active action, and leaves you with only 1 "hit" period, and at that not w/your primary weapon as they're too large (unless daggers or unarmed) to use in a grapple.
*taking hits unless trained in it - AoO's suck. Once trained, you get a +4 bonus to maneuver-type stuff (assuming best PF combo there vs. 3.x's 1 feat), but you're still not able to open up any new options - at all.
*It's almost like a self-inflicted disarm (ie: unable to use your weapons while doing it), so damage, to hit, all of the combat stuff goes way down.
There may be one or two other things escaping me at the moment, but you get the point - in my gaming experience, it's been a weak combat option, SO ... what am I (and my gaming groups for several years) missing?
NOTE: the above is not flame-bait, or intended to be offensive. I'm genuinely trying to figure this maneuver out and the mystique people throw behind it as being like the "One Ring" or something in combat.
HI all!
I've been playing the game for quite some time and for whatever reason, my groups and I have always stayed away from grapples in general - yet I see it tossed around quite a bit as some sort of game-ending maneuver. How is this? From 3.x to PF, I've yet to see any real significance to it, or only highly circumstantial benefits, so ... please explain it and handle the things I and my groups have sort of latched onto as common knowledge regarding it.
From what I've seen, unless you're an unarmed expert, it's kind of a waste.
NOTE: the above is not flame-bait, or intended to be offensive. I'm genuinely trying to figure this maneuver out and the mystique people throw behind it as being like the "One Ring" or something in combat.
Speaker, in all the Pathfinder sessions I've GMed grapple has only ever been used in purely role-playing situations. Things like the last man amongst an unexpected group of enemies is grappled, so he can be pinned and then tied up, and subsequently forced to give any and all useful information. Or in order to prevent a would-be thief from escaping they attempt to grapple him. (Though most thieves usually escape artist themselves right out of it). At one point our barbarian did try to grapple an ogre because he was Great Cleaving insane amounts of axe damage on the party, and he wanted to try and stop the blood loss. My regular group of gamers has never really seen grapple as a primary attack in combat, more of an available tactic for role playing situations.
There may be one or two other things escaping me at the moment, but you get the point - in my gaming experience, it's been a weak combat option, SO ... what am I (and my gaming groups for several years) missing?
In 3.5, a grapple-focused character could do very well at low levels. There were two easy ways to get a +4 bonus (Improved Grapple and Enlarge Person), and being grappled put your enemy at a genuine disadvantage (number of attacks limited to BAB only, harder to cast spells, light weapons only). At mid to high levels, it became less useful (lots of enemies who are really big+strong, or who have teleportation).
In Pathfinder, being grappled is less of a disadvantage most of the time, but at low levels it's still useful on occasion (against low-level casters or to pin/tie up a single enemy while everyone else gangs up on him). At mid to high levels, I suspect it's not very useful.
A grappled enemy cannot move very well. A grappled enemy caster has a significant chance of spell failure. A grappled enemy takes penalties on his attacks and on his defense.
So if you're fighting something that is really hard to hit, grapple it and let your friends clobber it. If you're fighting something that can hit you fairly easily, grapple it to make it less able to hit you or your friends. If you're fighting an enemy caster, grapple him and some of his spells will fizzle harmlessly. If you're fighitng a mobile skirmisher enemy who likes to run around and massacre your squishy caser friends, grapple him to hold him in place. If you're winning a fight and don't want your enemy to flee, grapple him to hold him in place. If your enemies have a healer, grapple him to hinder his spellcasting and to make it hard for him to move to any of his allies who need healing.
There's lots of good reasons to grapple. These are just a few.
I've also used grapple to get my companions under control without killing them when they've been feared or charmed. Sure, I could have hacked them to bits, then used up healing resources to revive them and heal them, but it was much more economical to grapple them and lock them down until the effects wore off.
I've also used grapple to bring enemies back alive. Sometimes, you want to capture a villain so he can stand trial for his crimes. Sometimes the Wanted poster offers a bigger reward for "alive" than it offers for "dead". Sometimes the enemy is someone who is charmed or posessed or simply acting out of grief or temporary insanity, and killing them seems like an unfair punishment. Whatever the reason, it's nice to be able to take someone down and tie them up when you need to.
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I have a strong PC who's a "grapple monster". At L11 he is virtually guaranteed to hit with a grapple check. With Greater Grapple he gets to make a second check making it possible to pin the creature in a single round.
Now the opponent is pretty much done. I did notice recently that breaking a pin means breaking the grapple (very cool!) and this will help, but if the opponent doesn't break the pin he has no other actions he can use since he can't move (that requires another grapple check).
If the opponent is grappled and not pinned, a failed grapple check means the opponent has no other actions that round since he can't move.
I've found this to be a very good technique, although the player had "interpreted" some of the rules in his favor rather excessively and it has required a lot of reading on my part -- and a lot of threads here on the messageboards -- to clear them up. Such as how IUS works with Greater Grapple (you can't use flurry (obvious) but the unarmed strikes are iterative so the second grapple is at -5), and how the Animal Fury barbarian rage power combines with grappling (I treat it as a secondary attack (hence the -5) and it can only be used once per round).
Right now we have another problem: does grappling a flying creature automatically prevent it from flying? There's another thread discussing this right now...
Hmm ... interesting. So the "grapple is king" thing is more about allowing THE PARTY to win vs. the character doing the grappling. Kind of like "take one for the team, buddy!" in that. You give up your primary attack power to neutralize some enemy attacker power - as long as your team backs you this is a win.
That sound about right?
Such as how IUS works with Greater Grapple (you can't use flurry (obvious) but the unarmed strikes are iterative so the second grapple is at -5)
Beyond being a pre-req for Imp/Grt Grapple, IUS is irrelevant to Grapple. Look at the text for Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike and Grapple are considered different 'weapons': There is no way to use Grapple in combination with iterative attacks, Flurry or not, unless you somehow have access to Grab (most such ways won't use Iteratives but will use Natural Attack rules, though). Monk Flurry only allows Trip & Disarm (like normal Iteratives) and Sunder (which is normally an Attack Action), no Grappling.
How the Animal Fury barbarian rage power combines with grappling (I treat it as a secondary attack (hence the -5) and it can only be used once per round).
That line with the -5 and secondary damage is when it is being used in concert with Iterative attacks though. When you are using it in concert with Grapple, it is functioning more like the Grab ability, so I would use the normal Full BAB and full STR damage appropriate to Primary Weapons like Bite. I don't see anything barring it from being used more than once per round (e.g. Greater Grapple), but note that it can't be used when INITIATING a Grapple, only maintaining or escaping from one (though reversing an already started grapple seems in-line with the ability's flavor). The +2 bonus shouldn't stack with itself though.
Right now we have another problem: does grappling a flying creature automatically prevent it from flying?
The Grappled condition explicitly says you can't move, and everybody in a grapple is usually grappled unless they have a special ability stating otherwise (like Grab's ability to not use the whole body, taking a -20 penalty, in order to not be Grappled yourself). I think it is a GM call if the grapple 'controller' has magical movement, though.
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Right now we have another problem: does grappling a flying creature automatically prevent it from flying?The Grappled condition explicitly says you can't move, and everybody in a grapple is usually grappled unless they have a special ability stating otherwise (like Grab's ability to not use the whole body, taking a -20 penalty, in order to not be Grappled yourself). I think it is a GM call if the grapple 'controller' has magical movement, though.
So it's your assertion that if a halfing were to grapple a dragon's tail (and somehow succeed!) that the dragon wouldn't be able to fly?
Using a dragon is rather extreme. :) Use another Large-size creature who's CMD would actually be beatable by the Small halfling. Now answer the question: can the creature fly?
Next, say the Large creature is hovering just over the halfling's head and the halfling successfully grapples the creature. It makes the DC 10 Fly check and doesn't lose any altitude. Can it fly away with its legs grabbed by the halfling?
I believe that creatures larger than the grappler cannot have all of their limbs pinned due to the grappled condition (that requires the pinned condition). I don't believe the rules about grappling are inclusive of flying creatures. They certainly don't say anything about creatures who are flying magically vs. those using natural flight.
Right now we have another problem: does grappling a flying creature automatically prevent it from flying?The Grappled condition explicitly says you can't move, and everybody in a grapple is usually grappled unless they have a special ability stating otherwise (like Grab's ability to not use the whole body, taking a -20 penalty, in order to not be Grappled yourself). I think it is a GM call if the grapple 'controller' has magical movement, though.So it's your assertion that if a halfing were to grapple a dragon's tail (and somehow succeed!) that the dragon wouldn't be able to fly?
Using a dragon is rather extreme. :) Use another Large-size creature who's CMD would actually be beatable by the Small halfling. Now answer the question: can the creature fly?
Next, say the Large creature is hovering just over the halfling's head and the halfling successfully grapples the creature. It makes the DC 10 Fly check and doesn't lose any altitude. Can it fly away with its legs grabbed by the halfling?
I believe that creatures larger than the grappler cannot have all of their limbs pinned due to the grappled condition (that requires the pinned condition). I don't believe the rules about grappling are inclusive of flying creatures. They certainly don't say anything about creatures who are flying magically vs. those using natural flight.
Grappled creatures cannot move, so no, they cannot fly.
So it's your assertion that if a halfing were to grapple a dragon's tail (and somehow succeed!) that the dragon wouldn't be able to fly?
(...)
I believe that creatures larger than the grappler cannot have all of their limbs pinned due to the grappled condition (that requires the pinned condition). I don't believe the rules about grappling are inclusive of flying creatures. They certainly don't say anything about creatures who are flying magically vs. those using natural flight.
First, you can't cherrry pick imagery most reasonable to have the mechanical outcome you want. Clearly, if you are grappling a creature you don't have to be so polite as to only grab it's legs and not interfere with even one limb that is necessary for flight.
But yeah, the rules are kind of wierd, I mean it seems natural for there to be a limit on the Size of creatures you can Grapple (control) like there is for other maneuvers, but there isn't. /shrug
I think instituting such a limit is a very reasonable house-rule since it avoids situations like the above, and I also think it's reasonable to extend the -20 option from Grab to ANYBODY (to not be considered 'Grappled' yourself), and even to reduce the penalty, say to -10 or -15. For cases with Halflings trying just to HOLD ON to Dragons (since they actually couldn't Grapple it by these rules), I would say the Halfling needs to roll a Grapple or Ride Check (with -5 penalty unless it has saddle) vs. Dragon's CMD, repeating each round (only the Halfling would have the Grappled condition). If the Dragon wants to rid itself of this pest, 'bucking' it off could be a Bullrush or Grapple check.
I think even for cases where you want to allow a grappled creature to continue to be able to move, e.g. flyers, magical or not, it's reasonable to reduce their speed so they can only make a single Move Action, or a Double Move Action if they "Run". Again, outside of the RAW.
Aren't you limited in grapples by +1 size category larger by fiat? (or was this a 3.x thing ... ???)
On the "stop 'em from flight" wouldn't that only makes sense for a "winged" flying creature? I mean, if you grapple something with innate flight (like something telekinetically or magically based - Beholders for instance), it should be able to move w/you on it like a "weight" capacity situation I'd think.
Grapple *should* immobilize the target IF limbs matter to it's movement, IMO. Otherwise, no - it should still fly IF it can handle your added weight as encumbrance or something. If it's just really big, it should laugh at your attempts, instantly counter-grapple you and go for the 40 yard punt.
Hmm ... interesting. So the "grapple is king" thing is more about allowing THE PARTY to win vs. the character doing the grappling. Kind of like "take one for the team, buddy!" in that. You give up your primary attack power to neutralize some enemy attacker power - as long as your team backs you this is a win.
That sound about right?
That is pretty much right for an adventuring group.
It's somewhat different for monsters.
I lost a rogue once to a Remorrhaz - I was in front, searching for traps, and it nailed me from ambush. As a little bitty gnome, my ability to outgrapple such a big huge monster, particularly one that was built for grappling and constricting, was negligable. Before the party could rescue me, the critter had constricted me to a pulp. A dead pulp.
After the resurrection, I got a tattoo of the Remorrhaz on my shoulder, and dumped all my skill points next level into Escape Artist, and spent almost all my remaining gold on an item, I can't remember what, that gave a huge bonus to escaping grapples a few times per day (probably a MIC item - I wish I could remember it now).
He never got grappled again, so those points were wasted, and that item was never used, but at least he was ready...
Right now we have another problem: does grappling a flying creature automatically prevent it from flying?The Grappled condition explicitly says you can't move, and everybody in a grapple is usually grappled unless they have a special ability stating otherwise (like Grab's ability to not use the whole body, taking a -20 penalty, in order to not be Grappled yourself). I think it is a GM call if the grapple 'controller' has magical movement, though.So it's your assertion that if a halfing were to grapple a dragon's tail (and somehow succeed!) that the dragon wouldn't be able to fly?
Using a dragon is rather extreme. :) Use another Large-size creature who's CMD would actually be beatable by the Small halfling. Now answer the question: can the creature fly?
Next, say the Large creature is hovering just over the halfling's head and the halfling successfully grapples the creature. It makes the DC 10 Fly check and doesn't lose any altitude. Can it fly away with its legs grabbed by the halfling?
I believe that creatures larger than the grappler cannot have all of their limbs pinned due to the grappled condition (that requires the pinned condition). I don't believe the rules about grappling are inclusive of flying creatures. They certainly don't say anything about creatures who are flying magically vs. those using natural flight.
When my children were small, they liked to sit on my foot and grapple my leg. I would walk around the room with them laughing and giggling as they thumped along for the ride.
Sure, I didn't fly. But I would venture that, since my childrens' diminutive size and mass was insufficient to stop me from walking, it would likewise be insufficient to stop me from flying were I normally capable of doing so with ease.
As someone has mentioned, there's a big difference between grappling a dragon's wing and grappling its tail. It's also been mentioned that grappling a beholder shouldn't have any effect on its flight unless you exceed the maximum wieght it can lift.
All of which seems true but is unsupported by current rules.
So, each DM is required to make a ruling on this stuff, at least until such time as Paizo offers an official one. Maybe they already have in an errata somewhere, or maybe a post on these forums - but I am unaware of one.
Until then, for me, I'll use the lesson learned from my small children. I was Medium and by Pathfinder standards, they were Small (about gnome-sized), and they couldn't prevent me from moving, even if two of them ganged up on me.
Using that, I would say that even one size category is sufficient to still be able to move, albeit encumbered. Of course, we already have rules for Encumbrance. If we houserule to only use that for determination of whether a creature can move, then Grapple would never prevent any creature larger than the grappler from moving - it would only slow him down (maybe) due to encumbrance.
Me, I am inclined to give Grappling the benefit of the doubt, and say that you can prevent movement of foes one size larger than you, but you must grapple their means of movement (legs for walking, wings for flying, etc.
Quite frankly, a Medium man riding a Large horse is grappling the horse, using his legs and maybe his hands to hold onto the horse. But the horse can still run. However, give that man a good grip on the horse's legs, and the horse can't run. Probably can't walk. It would, of course, buck and kick (making CMD checks to break the grapple) until the man lets go, then it would run free.
So that seems reasonable to me.
1. Foe is same sized or smaller - he can't move.
2. Foe is one size category larger - he can move (might be slow from encumberance) unless you grapple his limbs, wings, fins, etc., in which case he can't move.
3. Foe is two or more size categories larger - he can move no matter what you grapple, though he might still be encumbered.
4. Nothing can grapple a Tarrasque!!!
Yep, pure houserule, but it seems workable.
When my children were small, they liked to sit on my foot and grapple my leg. I would walk around the room with them laughing and giggling as they thumped along for the ride.Sure, I didn't fly. But I would venture that, since my childrens' diminutive size and mass was insufficient to stop me from walking, it would likewise be insufficient to stop me from flying were I normally capable of doing so with ease.
As someone has mentioned, there's a big difference between grappling a dragon's wing and grappling its tail. It's also been mentioned that grappling a beholder shouldn't have any effect on...
I'd say that you succeeded your grapple check, and you made the check to move, not wanting to break the grapple.
dnd explains life!!!
I'd say that you succeeded your grapple check, and you made the check to move, not wanting to break the grapple.
dnd explains life!!!
LoL :)
Maybe, but the rules-lawyer in me cannot help but point out that if I were the grappler, then I ignored the fact that I must use both hands to grapple, or one hand at a -4 penalty, but I cannot grapple without using at least one hand.
Since I used no hands, it was not I that was the grappler here. It was the little rugrats. And only they have a choice, per the grapple rules, of whether to move us or not, given a successful maintain-grapple CMB check.
Life 1, DnD (Pathfinder) 0
heh, you're right, you must've made a grapple check to become the grappler first - then move.
Hehehe!
Fun examples, man! Kudos!
On a more game-based note, the *only* thing I'd add into your house rule vs. "small" (probably not Tiny or Diminutive, though) is that you need to account for relative strengths. A strong, small thing (say like a little person wrestler) would certainly give you a HELL of a time by comparison to your kids.
Your kids are both small AND weak (at least I'm assuming they're not weight-lifters in training or something), so I'd hesitate to disallow -1 size character to completely hinder the +1 size character's outright as a change to the rules. Let it be resolved by a check as it stands with size modifiers as they are as the only real variable in favor one way or the other. Once you get to a medium trying to pin down a Huge - it just doesn't make sense short of literally overbearing and dog-piling to bring the Huge thing down. I think 2-sizes in any direction is too much to effectively grapple against basically, but +1 is doable as the size disparity isn't that great just yet.
(why's it sound like I'm talking about fashion???)
Anyway, grapple does allow for the grappler to "pin" the opponent = fully immobilize. I think the size difference thing should probably go by fiat of +2 sizes for larger things/smaller things in that they can not "pin" by grapple, but merely add weight by encumbrance. It would seem more fair, IMO, and likely to bear things out mechanically.