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A duelist can add Int bonus to her "Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class." Does this modify her CMD in any way, by letting her add the same Int bonus to her CMD?
It seems clear that because she's adding this Int bonus to her "Dex bonus to AC" that it would be basically limited by the Max dex bonus available from armor, such that a 3rd lvl duelist with 16 Dex and 16 Int wearing a chain shirt would have an Ac of 18 (4 from armor, 4 from Dex/Int) rather than 20 (4 from armor, 3 Dex, 3 Int). Also, if denied her dex to AC she loses the Int bonus to AC as well.
CMD works similar to that in that she loses her Dex to CMD if denied her dexterity to AC.
Still, CMD says to add "any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to CMD." This doesn't specifically include "Int bonus to Dex bonus to AC."
This also raises another question, in that does the Max Dex bonus permitted by armor cap the amount of Dex that can added to CMD? (i.e. would a character with 16 Dex wearing Full Plate add +1 or +3 to her CMD from Dexterity?) The entries on CMB/CMD don't seem to suggest this, but its not clear.
So, two questions basically. Does Canny Defense allow the duelist to up her CMD with her Int? And does armor limit the amount of Dex that can be added to CMD?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
it applies to CMD as the "DEX bonus to AC" applies to CMD, and this modifies that amount.
the amount is subject to max DEX of armor unfortunately - i don't see why it should be since it goes against the whole concept of INT to AC as 'wiles', 'battle smarts' and against max DEX as the limits of physical flexibility (your DEX score is the same, you aren't more flexible), so I am fine to houserule that it applies on top of whatever armor you're wearing.
who knows, maybe we will see this errata'd in the next update?
This all just raises the question, "why in hell is Canny Defense not listed as a Dodge bonus?"
Only reason I can see is so that if you do where light armor, you limit your benefit from Canny Defense. Which, might sound like a fair trade off....except for bracers of defense.
Great, I didnt even know that about CMD...I missed the small print there about adding certain AC bonus types to CMD. Now I'll have to go into the campaign I made up and recalculate every NPC and PC's CMD modifier.
>.<
I think that canny defence can be treated as a doge bonus, definitely - it is to all intents and purposes, and I suspect it will get errata'd at some point.
Well I went and looked at the 3.5 version of the Duelist, and the language is pretty much identical, except the 3.5 version lost the Int bonus whenever wearing armor or using a shield. Its the same wording though: "Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class." So it seems clear that this was a 'cut and paste' carryover from 3.5 to the PF version.
So basically its just like treating her Dexterity higher for purposes of AC (and not reflex saves or Dex based skills and checks).
This works simply enough for 3.5--armor doesn't come into play and it applies to touch AC.
Against 3.5 type combat maneuvers, this bonus worked against some but not others...those requiring touch attacks to initiate would benefit. This included grapple and trip attacks, but not bull rush, sunder, disarm, or overrun. But it also wouldn't apply if making a dex check to defend against a trip attack once the touch attack had been made.
The class was also used in Neverwinter Nights 2. It worked just as it says for 3.5, the Int bonus applies to AC just like Dex would.
But now, here in PF, its just confusing, and not at all clear how it should interact with armor and CMD.
Consensus here seems to be to treat it as a dodge bonus. Which I have no problem with, except thats just not what it says. I think I'm closer to simply treating the Dex as being higher for both purposes of AC and CMD, but subject to armor limitations as well.
But then that raises the other question of how does max dex from armor apply to CMD? Anybody seen an answer to that question? Does a Fighter with 16 dex wearing Full Plate add +1 or +3 to his CMD from Dex?
Well I went and looked at the 3.5 version of the Duelist, and the language is pretty much identical, except the 3.5 version lost the Int bonus whenever wearing armor or using a shield. Its the same wording though: "Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class." So it seems clear that this was a 'cut and paste' carryover from 3.5 to the PF version.
So basically its just like treating her Dexterity higher for purposes of AC (and not reflex saves or Dex based skills and checks).
This works simply enough for 3.5--armor doesn't come into play and it applies to touch AC.
Against 3.5 type combat maneuvers, this bonus worked against some but not others...those requiring touch attacks to initiate would benefit. This included grapple and trip attacks, but not bull rush, sunder, disarm, or overrun. But it also wouldn't apply if making a dex check to defend against a trip attack once the touch attack had been made.
The class was also used in Neverwinter Nights 2. It worked just as it says for 3.5, the Int bonus applies to AC just like Dex would.
But now, here in PF, its just confusing, and not at all clear how it should interact with armor and CMD.
Consensus here seems to be to treat it as a dodge bonus. Which I have no problem with, except thats just not what it says. I think I'm closer to simply treating the Dex as being higher for both purposes of AC and CMD, but subject to armor limitations as well.
But then that raises the other question of how does max dex from armor apply to CMD? Anybody seen an answer to that question? Does a Fighter with 16 dex wearing Full Plate add +1 or +3 to his CMD from Dex?
I had a similar query once, wether wearing restrictive armor that reduced your dex bonus thereby also reduced your initiative and dexterity adjustment to reflex saves.
I assume that it does, because it restricts your movements with regards to AC and Dexterity skills it should also hamper Reflex saves, CMD and Initiative. That being said, it would also in theory hamper someone with Weapon Finesse/Agile Manuvers in theory but it doesnt by the RAW, so maybe I am spitballing there.
Though I do feel that a reduced dex adjustment from armor should affect CMD, Dex Adjustment to Reflex saves and Initiative too since those are all abilities where movement is part of how it works.
Well I went and looked at the 3.5 version of the Duelist, and the language is pretty much identical, except the 3.5 version lost the Int bonus whenever wearing armor or using a shield. Its the same wording though: "Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class." So it seems clear that this was a 'cut and paste' carryover from 3.5 to the PF version.
So basically its just like treating her Dexterity higher for purposes of AC (and not reflex saves or Dex based skills and checks).
This works simply enough for 3.5--armor doesn't come into play and it applies to touch AC.
Against 3.5 type combat maneuvers, this bonus worked against some but not others...those requiring touch attacks to initiate would benefit. This included grapple and trip attacks, but not bull rush, sunder, disarm, or overrun. But it also wouldn't apply if making a dex check to defend against a trip attack once the touch attack had been made.
The class was also used in Neverwinter Nights 2. It worked just as it says for 3.5, the Int bonus applies to AC just like Dex would.
But now, here in PF, its just confusing, and not at all clear how it should interact with armor and CMD.
Consensus here seems to be to treat it as a dodge bonus. Which I have no problem with, except thats just not what it says. I think I'm closer to simply treating the Dex as being higher for both purposes of AC and CMD, but subject to armor limitations as well.
But then that raises the other question of how does max dex from armor apply to CMD? Anybody seen an answer to that question? Does a Fighter with 16 dex wearing Full Plate add +1 or +3 to his CMD from Dex?
I had a similar query once, wether wearing restrictive armor that reduced your dex bonus thereby also reduced your initiative and dexterity adjustment to reflex saves.
I assume that it does, because it restricts your movements with regards to AC and Dexterity skills it should also hamper Reflex saves, CMD and Initiative. That being said, it would also in...
I agree with your opinion that Max Dex should affect Reflex saves and Dex based abilities and calculations. However, it specifically does not. In 3.0 it was an open interpretation, but since 3.5 it explicitly states in the Max Dex entry under the Armor section of the Equipment chapter that it does not affect anything but AC.
I do think it absolutely should affect your CMD. CMD allows you to "add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC." And, "any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD."
I think we're going to go with treating the Int as an increase in Dex for both AC and CMD. Thus, a 3rd lvl Duelist with a +5 Dex mod and +3 Int mod would basically have a +8 Dex mod for purposes of AC and CMD. Like with Dex, this is subject to the Max dex bonus provided by armor. And we'll apply the Max dex bonus to CMD as well (this will admittedly affect very few creatures and players).
We reached this conclusion after looking at how the Monk's AC bonus from Wis works, where it clearly applies both to AC and to CMD. Of course, that has specifically different mechanics, but it seems similar enough to justify adding the Int to CMD for the duelist.
Thing is, I don't think it is the same as dex - it's not about moving faster, it's about moving smarter. I'm for calling it a dodge bonus.
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Huh. I don't think of dex as moving faster for the most part.
I think of dex as moving more accurately. I'd say str is more along the lines of moving faster, in regards to attacks anyhow. As in you swing so hard that your blade hits them before they move out of the way.
Whereas dex would be more along the lines of aiming at a point and being able to compensate for movement during swinging.
Huh. I don't think of dex as moving faster for the most part.
I think of dex as moving more accurately. I'd say str is more along the lines of moving faster, in regards to attacks anyhow. As in you swing so hard that your blade hits them before they move out of the way.
Whereas dex would be more along the lines of aiming at a point and being able to compensate for movement during swinging.
Double huh?
We're talking about bonuses to AC not attacks.
I believe it (limiting canny defense to your max dex) was done for balance purposes. Even if it makes more sense to use it as a dodge bonus; at mid-high level play it keeps the AC of the character a bit lower.
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the mention of attacks was merely to show where I would put speed in the scheme of things.
If you'd prefer--moving so an enemies sword barely misses you would be dex to me. Not moving so fast that an opponent can't land a blow. That just sounds... exhausting :D
Anyhow, CMD is calculated using your dexterity modifier. Not your dexterity bonus to modify armor class.
Differences are as follows:
Armor can cause your dex bonus to ac to be different than your actual dexterity bonus.
You add your dex bonus to skills and saving throws as well. Since canny defense doesn't mention any of these other elements, it shouldn't be treated as a dexterity bonus.
Also, the canny defense ability mentions that the int bonus/duelist level is added "to her dexterity bonus to modify armor class.
It's still an int bonus. It just combines with dex to create a total bonus.
The armor listing is quite clear that only the dex bonus has a cap. So your int bonus will stack on top of whatever dex gets through your armor limitation.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I would like to hear official word about this ability. I am rebuilding my favourite character to be Fighter Dualist and Dexterity based tank (the person who can reliably take hits for others).
Does armor's Maximum Dex Bonus prohibit the use of this ability?
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I too would like an official ruling, as it does appear to be something to help against maneuvers in 3.5, and considering how the miscellaneous modifiers were an afterthought to CMD.
The max dex thing would be nice to know as well, what is odd to me is wording "When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield" as that makes it sound like something that is added so long as the armor is light. That is not particularly important for my kensai, as I plan on no armor other than magic stuff, but still is something I think should be clarified.
I agree that it should apply to CMD.
To all those that are calling it a Dodge bonus, we would not need to ask if it can be used with CMD if it was a dodge bonus, but it is not.
Looks like This thread has seen its last days one final bump from me, and I'll leave it to die if we get no word. :(
