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I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.
I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.
It negates the penalties only for the shield bash. The main hand still receives normal penalties (-2 with a light shield / -4 with a heavy shield).
You could arguably use the shield as your main hand weapon and a light weapon for off-hand attacks, therefore reducing the penalty to -2 with a heavy shield. But the possibily of using shield bash as a main hand attack is unclear still. As many people saying you can as there is saying you cannot. No clarification from Paizo on that particular bit yet as far as I know.
I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.It negates the penalties only for the shield bash. The main hand still receives normal penalties (-2 with a light shield / -4 with a eavy shield).
Actually, with a light weapon like a short sword you can TWF with a heavy shield with only a -2 penalty.
Actually, with a light weapon like a short sword you can TWF with a heavy shield with only a -2 penalty.I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.It negates the penalties only for the shield bash. The main hand still receives normal penalties (-2 with a light shield / -4 with a eavy shield).
:)
Was editing my post to mention that part when you posted. I personnally agree with you on this, but have yet to find the official answer to that point. As far as I know that ruling is still contested. Did I miss the memo?
Actually, with a light weapon like a short sword you can TWF with a heavy shield with only a -2 penalty.I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.It negates the penalties only for the shield bash. The main hand still receives normal penalties (-2 with a light shield / -4 with a eavy shield).:)
Was editing my post to mention that part when you posted. I personnally agree with you on this, but have yet to find the official answer to that point. As far as I know that ruling is still contested. Did I miss the memo?
I missed the argument. It seemed apparent that the shield bash rules are merely an extension of the TWF rules. A light shield bash is listed as a light weapon and heavy shield bash is listed as a one-handed weapon.
When TWF you can have any combination of 2 light, 1 light/1 one-handed, and 2 one-handed weapons. The only time you take the larger penalty is if neither hand is wielding a light weapon.
You do have to treat the light weapon as your off-handed weapon in terms of number of attacks. Meaning your heavy shield will have the number of attacks as your BAB allows while your short sword or other light weapon is limited by your TWF feats.
Edit: Hmm. In the armor section it DOES specify that a shield bash is an off-hand attack. I'd still let a fighter lower the penalty by letting them use a light main weapon, but that'd be house ruled I guess.
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Actually, with a light weapon like a short sword you can TWF with a heavy shield with only a -2 penalty.I don't remember how exactly it played out, but we had a warlord type in our group that took the shield "chain" of feats that allowed him to do a shield bash without TWF penalties. Does this negate the TWF penalties for the main hand as well or just for the shield bash? I'll peruse the PRD and see if i can find linkage to the specific feat, but until then i'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.It negates the penalties only for the shield bash. The main hand still receives normal penalties (-2 with a light shield / -4 with a eavy shield).:)
Was editing my post to mention that part when you posted. I personnally agree with you on this, but have yet to find the official answer to that point. As far as I know that ruling is still contested. Did I miss the memo?
I missed the argument. It seemed apparent that the shield bash rules are merely an extension of the TWF rules. A light shield bash is listed as a light weapon and heavy shield bash is listed as a one-handed weapon.
When TWF you can have any combination of 2 light, 1 light/1 one-handed, and 2 one-handed weapons. The only time you take the larger penalty is if neither hand is wielding a light weapon.
You do have to treat the light weapon as your off-handed weapon in terms of number of attacks. Meaning your heavy shield will have the number of attacks as your BAB allows while your short sword or other light weapon is limited by your TWF feats.
Edit: Hmm. In the armor section it DOES specify that a shield bash is an off-hand attack. I'd still let a fighter lower the penalty by letting them use a light main weapon, but that'd be house ruled I guess.
You caught where I'm getting my reasoning. If there was no restriction, then it would just say you could shield bash by treating a light shield as a light weapon and a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. By saying 'as an off-hand attack' it adds a new restriction in.
I'd personally be just fine with someone using their shield bash as the only attack in the round, but would keep the restriction on off-hand str bonus/power attack.
My ruling is that if the shield bash is their only weapon attack, I'd resolve it just as I would any other weapon.
I see no difference, not one bit, between a fighter who uses a battleaxe and power attack and one who uses a heavy shield. They're both 1 handed weapons, so the 2:1 power attack ratio applies.
Same thing with light shields and other light weapons, like a short sword or dagger. 1:1 power attack ratio.
It is scarcely unbalancing to allow a character to shield bash and still retain use of any other feats like power attack or cleave. They sacrifice their shield bonus to AC unless they take yet another feat, whereas by using a mace, flail, sword... hell, anything other than a shield they'd have no drawbacks.
Unless specifically built around, shields are still a sub-par option compared to the rest of the weapons list.
So what about if you dual wield shields?
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You shield bash 'as an offhand attack'. So when using both, the non-shield has to be the primary weapon. Having a light weapon in your non-shield hand will still be at a -4 if using a heavy shield, or a -2 if using a light shield.
Note that shield master lets you use the shield bonus to AC, so you go from:
1. light shield: -2 twf penalty to a +1 bonus due to shield armor bonus => that's a net gain of +3 from the shield master feat
2. heavy shield: -4 twf penalty to a +2 bonus due to shield armor bonus => that's a net gain of +6 from the shield master feat
--> Is shield master worth it? name another feat that grants +6 to hit, and by extension due to the shield slam feat, a +6 to hit enemies' CMDs to bull rush them!!!
:)
NOTE: I have a PC with shield master, and despite the heavy shield goodness, I have equipped him with a light shield as of late, 'cause he's also a longsword specialist and I'd rather have -2 in the main hand than -4... the "damage hand" is the longsword, so I didn't want to gimp it too much, as I might not always be so lucky as fighting my foes with their back against a wall! :) (i.e. the free bullrush from shield slam feat makes enemies prone if they hit a wall before the end of their "bullrush" movement)
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You shield bash 'as an offhand attack'. So when using both, the non-shield has to be the primary weapon. Having a light weapon in your non-shield hand will still be at a -4 if using a heavy shield, or a -2 if using a light shield.Note that shield master lets you use the shield bonus to AC, so you go from:
1. light shield: -2 twf penalty to a +1 bonus due to shield armor bonus => that's a net gain of +3 from the shield master feat
2. heavy shield: -4 twf penalty to a +2 bonus due to shield armor bonus => that's a net gain of +6 from the shield master feat
--> Is shield master worth it? name another feat that grants +6 to hit, and by extension due to the shield slam feat, a +6 to hit enemies' CMDs to bull rush them!!!
:)
NOTE: I have a PC with shield master, and despite the heavy shield goodness, I have equipped him with a light shield as of late, 'cause he's also a longsword specialist and I'd rather have -2 in the main hand than -4... the "damage hand" is the longsword, so I didn't want to gimp it too much, as I might not always be so lucky as fighting my foes with their back against a wall! :) (i.e. the free bullrush from shield slam feat makes enemies prone if they hit a wall before the end of their "bullrush" movement)
Yup! Love the combo. Sadly you're still stuck with the -4 or -2 on your non-shield weapon, but hey, your shield will be smacking your enemies around!
So what about if you dual wield shields?
Possibly the awesomist character I have ever seen did this. She was a Dwarven Fighter in spiked superheavy plate (the Dwarven armor that is so heavy it slows down Dwarves) who dual wielded spike shield gauntlets - and all the spikes were enchanted. Her full attack routine was use all but one of her attacks to shield bash with both shields, and then attempt a grapple to get the spiked armor in on the action.
So what about if you dual wield shields?
Well, the shield bonus won't stack, so you're not going to have any higher AC than a character with only 1 shield- let's make that clear right away.
Other than that there's not really any point to having two shields. Even with improved shield bash and the shield master feat, there's just not enough to be gained from it. Shield bashing can be a pretty effective technique, but it is by no means a game-breaker.
I would be far more worried about the fighter character who used a flail and shield and relied on a combination of shield bashes, trips, disarms, and just plain damage. They'd be a very versatile and effective combatant. Granted, only a fighter could pull this off, because they're the only class with the feats available.
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So what about if you dual wield shields?Possibly the awesomist character I have ever seen did this. She was a Dwarven Fighter in spiked superheavy plate (the Dwarven armor that is so heavy it slows down Dwarves) who dual wielded spike shield gauntlets - and all the spikes were enchanted. Her full attack routine was use all but one of her attacks to shield bash with both shields, and then attempt a grapple to get the spiked armor in on the action.
According to RAW, you can't dual wield two shields. Shield bashes are always offhand attacks... so you get one shield bash with TWF, two shield bashes with ITWF, and three shield bashes with GTWF. That's it. You can't make main hand attacks with a shield by RAW (unless you treat them as improvised weapons, of course).
Cheers!
PDK
--> Is shield master worth it? name another feat that grants +6 to hit, and by extension due to the shield slam feat, a +6 to hit enemies' CMDs to bull rush them!!!
Just want to note that two-weapon fighting grants +2/+6 to hit, for a total of +8 :3
So what about if you dual wield shields?Possibly the awesomist character I have ever seen did this. She was a Dwarven Fighter in spiked superheavy plate (the Dwarven armor that is so heavy it slows down Dwarves) who dual wielded spike shield gauntlets - and all the spikes were enchanted. Her full attack routine was use all but one of her attacks to shield bash with both shields, and then attempt a grapple to get the spiked armor in on the action.According to RAW, you can't dual wield two shields. Shield bashes are always offhand attacks... so you get one shield bash with TWF, two shield bashes with ITWF, and three shield bashes with GTWF. That's it. You can't make main hand attacks with a shield by RAW (unless you treat them as improvised weapons, of course).
Cheers!
PDK
"You can bash an opponent with a
heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."Not must... not always... you can use a shield as an off-hand weapon if you have one in your off-hand. Nothing about using it in your main hand at all.
Nothing about a shield "always being an off-hand weapon" or "must be used as an off-hand weapon," like we see with other entries such as "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." or "A net must be folded to be thrown effectively."
If we begin reading "can" as "always" and "must", you run into some issues... such as the heavy crossbow, which says "However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls." which means you must or always use one hand to fire a heavy crossbow at a -4 penalty. Or in the rapier description, which reads "You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon." which, given the same treatment as the shield bash entry, means that you must always use Weapon Finesse to apply your desterity modifier to attack rolls with a rapier and if you cannot use Weapon Finesse you cannot wield a rapier.
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So what about if you dual wield shields?Possibly the awesomist character I have ever seen did this. She was a Dwarven Fighter in spiked superheavy plate (the Dwarven armor that is so heavy it slows down Dwarves) who dual wielded spike shield gauntlets - and all the spikes were enchanted. Her full attack routine was use all but one of her attacks to shield bash with both shields, and then attempt a grapple to get the spiked armor in on the action.According to RAW, you can't dual wield two shields. Shield bashes are always offhand attacks... so you get one shield bash with TWF, two shield bashes with ITWF, and three shield bashes with GTWF. That's it. You can't make main hand attacks with a shield by RAW (unless you treat them as improvised weapons, of course).
Cheers!
PDK
"You can bash an opponent with a
heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."Not must... not always... you can use a shield as an off-hand weapon if you have one in your off-hand. Nothing about using it in your main hand at all.
Nothing about a shield "always being an off-hand weapon" or "must be used as an off-hand weapon," like we see with other entries such as "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." or "A net must be folded to be thrown effectively."
If we begin reading "can" as "always" and "must", you run into some issues... such as the heavy crossbow, which says "However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls." which means you must or always use one hand to fire a heavy crossbow at a -4 penalty. Or in the rapier description, which reads "You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon." which, given the same treatment as the shield bash entry, means that you must always use Weapon Finesse to apply your desterity...
While you can read it that way, the problem with this is that it specifies it at all. Heavy Shields and Light Shields are listed as one-handed or light weapons in the table, and you can use *any* one-handed or light weapon as an off-hand weapon already. The fact that they felt the need to specify that 'you can shield bash as an off-hand attack' makes it seem like that's all it was intended.
It's also the only context in which a shield bash is mentioned, which is the only way to attack with a shield. I'm of the same mind, shield bashing can only be used as an off-hand attack.
But there are already so many threads with this same argument that I'ma stop here. :D
It's all RAI vs. RAW and it's all up in the air. It's why I hate it and love it.
I'm playing a paladin a game right now who main hands her shield and off-hands a short sword, so maybe I'm a bit biased... but it really could go either way, I see what you mean.