I can see an easy balancing factor for certain groups...
For groups counting a 1 as a fumble, make the wielder roll again to see if he chops his own head off.
Watch the number of vorpal weapons in your game vastly decrease!
Seriously people. +5 Keen Scythe > Vorpal anything.Really? Tarn Linnorm with 385hp? One vorpal kills it. Can any single crit from the scythe kill it? Even at max damage?
Part of the argument is "You wouldn't want your PC's head lopped off!" Some one doing an average 100+ damage with a critical swing is going to FUBAR anything but a raging lvl 20 Barbarian.
For the counter PC w/ vorpal vs NPC, I have and had one rebuttal - "Wizards"
For the counter PC w/ vorpal vs NPC, I have and had one rebuttal - "Wizards"
A wizard eventually runs out of spells.
How many kills does it take before a vorpal killbot reaches its preset kill limit and shuts down?
For the counter PC w/ vorpal vs NPC, I have and had one rebuttal - "Wizards"A wizard eventually runs out of spells.
How many kills does it take before a vorpal killbot reaches its preset kill limit and shuts down?
Will a Wizard run out of spells before it does over 300 damage? No.
The point being is the Wizard will kill whatever you are fighting before a vorpal goes off, much less confirms.
Will a Wizard run out of spells before it does over 300 damage? No.
For the counter PC w/ vorpal vs NPC, I have and had one rebuttal - "Wizards"A wizard eventually runs out of spells.
How many kills does it take before a vorpal killbot reaches its preset kill limit and shuts down?
Depends on how many previous encounters the wizard has been in so far that day. How many encounters does it take before a vorpal blade is no longer vorpal?
Vorpal is nice, but it is not the end all be all for a melee fighter.
You cannot vorpal something if you cannot reach it. A invible flying archer will each the dual weilding vorpal sword guy for breakfast if the BBEG has no way of seeing invis and flying.
Not to mention if a fighter with a scimitar, improved crit, critical master, stunning critical, and exhausting critical (and other feats) would eat this guy for breakfast if he gets to go first.
Critting on a 15+ he will cause the BBEG to either be stunned if not staggered (now only one attack a round) and to top it off the guy is exhausted -6 str and dex. Have other critical feats and the BBEG is toast.
He goes from a machine of death with 8 chances a round, to a tired 5% chance a round to get a kill, as the critical master slices and dices the BBEG apart.
A single weapon does not make a character famous, it is the character that wields it that makes the weapon famous.
Another way to beat said dual vorpal BBEG.
Irresitable Dance. fail save do nothing but dance for 1d4+1 rounds make your save do nothing for 1 round. at 20+ level I am sure the mage can keep him dancing for enough rounds for the party to cut said BBEG in two. Game over.
Vorpal weapons are the least of a character's worries at high levels. By the time a fighter with vorpal weapons can autokill a single enemy 30% of the time with a full round action, the party wizard's autokills 35-60% of the time with a standard action. Hell, at that point the wizard can *quicken* save-or-lose spells.
4-5x crit range is a dangerous place to go. Just think of the fighter with his dual +4 thundering nu-vorpal short swords: d6+28/17-20/x5 plus 4d8 on a critical hit. He's got a 20% chance per swing to crit with those suckers, to deal 'round about 175 damage on a hit. And with TWF he's got what, 7 attacks to do that with? Total damage for a round starts to average more than 350. You've got a better than 35% chance to crit twice, and that's more or less instant death to any CR below 21. All told, you're in effective autokill territory with a full attack more than 50% of the time, regardless of saves and appropriate anatomy (head to sever). Fighter toe-to-toe damage output is already off the charts, and changing the vorpal enhancement just pushes them over the top; increasing threat range by 2 makes vorpal a must-have enhancement for anyone who can afford it.
You think that given how long most high level combats can last you'd enjoy the advantage of having a player with a Vorpal weapon or two to speed things up?
Of course you only have the 5% chance per swing of having it activate given that it only starts when you roll a natural 20, not simply when you critical something, and it does need to be confirmed. It doesn't work on a number of creatures and creature types and I've even seen relatively cheap neck items that completely negate the ability. Don't think there are any in the Pathfinder RPG (yet) but I know I've seen them in 3.5.
Where the hell are people getting dual Vorpal weapons from? Start reigning in your games.
The only problem with the immunity angle it that would annoy the player after a while. You would have to use it sparingly.
Player: Woo, I got this awesome vorpal blade!!!!
several encounter later
Player: WTF! Is everything immune for vorpal now?
Want something even nastier and cheaper than the 2 vorpal sword wielding BBEG?
1. Awaken a Dire Tiger CR 9
2. Level him up in Barbarian (1) fighter (11) (12 levels) CR 20
3. Give him an amulet of might fists vorpal 120k, Rhino Hide Armor, Belt of speed(moved from boots)
4. Name him Shere Khan
5. Let him pounce someone with 6 vorpal attacks on the charge.
6. Profit!
Want something even nastier and cheaper than the 2 vorpal sword wielding BBEG?
1. Awaken a Dire Tiger CR 9
2. Level him up in Barbarian (1) fighter (11) (12 levels) CR 20
3. Give him an amulet of might fists vorpal 120k, Rhino Hide Armor, Belt of speed(moved from boots)
4. Name him Shere Khan
5. Let him pounce someone with 6 vorpal attacks on the charge.
6. Profit!
Worst part is most parties wouldn't be able to use the amulet after they killed it.
Want something even nastier and cheaper than the 2 vorpal sword wielding BBEG?
1. Awaken a Dire Tiger CR 9
2. Level him up in Barbarian (1) fighter (11) (12 levels) CR 20
3. Give him an amulet of might fists vorpal 120k, Rhino Hide Armor, Belt of speed(moved from boots)
4. Name him Shere Khan
5. Let him pounce someone with 6 vorpal attacks on the charge.
6. Profit!
For added pleasure add a 12th level bard riding him.
So the bard can inspire competence, cast invisiblity on himself and the tiger. Then ready an action for right after Shere Khan charges to dim door out of sight.So the party hears singing coming toward them quickly. Out of nowhere a tiger pounces fighter fred, who's heads fall to the ground, then they both vanish. heck the dead body is an item now and Shere Khan is grappling it so dim door that item under SK's carrying capcity with them.
Add in few pinches of dust a dissappearance for an even more terrifying encounter.
Every few rounds another party member dies and all that is left is a head.
@OgeXam
Hilarious tiger/bard idea. Laughed hard. Very hard.
As a side note, it's not for a BBEG role that I have this, just a surprise minion role in a group fight. I just did not want some flashy cool scary ability in a fight to turn into a insta-kill "i win" for the party or the evil guys with no use limit and no ways of avoiding it.
Of course checking the multitude of ideas here dispelled that fear =).
@Charender: for immunity, it will be more like
1- Death ward: dispel it.
2- Strategy in order to get to melee for long enough.
3-Undeads, golems, etc.
All of them makign a minority of the encoutners of course.
I've never thought that Vorpal needs balancing - the Vorpal enhancement is +5. That cost (or rather, rarity, since I feel like it'd be ridiculous for anyone to be SELLING a thing like that) alone balances it, imho.
Was talking about this with a friend and he reminded me of a simple and cheap item that balances out the vorpal sword.
Fortification armor. You can have a 25%, 50% or 75% of negating the natural 20 confirm crit. Since fortification armor states:
When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit)
If the fortification armor kicks in, the confirm to crit roll never occurs so therefore never chops off the head.
Price of a bucker of fortifiation is cheap, just do not use it to AC if you are using that arm, or put it on armor you already have and vorpal is reduced in effectivness.
Some had calculated a 33% kill rate. Say creature is displaced drops to 16.5% now creature has greater fortification down to a 4% chance. With just the greater fortification it is only an 8% chance per round. Not that scary anymore.
@OgeXam
Hilarious tiger/bard idea. Laughed hard. Very hard.As a side note, it's not for a BBEG role that I have this, just a surprise minion role in a group fight. I just did not want some flashy cool scary ability in a fight to turn into a insta-kill "i win" for the party or the evil guys with no use limit and no ways of avoiding it.
Of course checking the multitude of ideas here dispelled that fear =).
@Charender: for immunity, it will be more like
1- Death ward: dispel it.
2- Strategy in order to get to melee for long enough.
3-Undeads, golems, etc.
All of them makign a minority of the encoutners of course.
I agree, it is just that if a player just got a new shiny vorpal blade, and the next 5 encounters were against vorpal immune or resistant creatures they would be highly annoyed.
The immunity angle would be something that you would have to use sparingly unless you were trying to piss the vorpal killbot off.
Another idea. Make it where DR negates vorpal. If you cannot negate a creatures DR, it is immune to vorpal.
This make it so that players will want a +5 vorpal for the ability to overcome different DRs instead of a +1 vorpal.
Nice story. Though not all players would react the same against a BBEG sudden death. The fact that it seemed sort of hopeless was a big factor to make it go like that IMO.
Well to be honest noone on my table noticed the fortification on armor relation with vorpal...
If we integrate all of this ideas and counters like DR or deathward, vorpal would probably be used on crit and force a coup-de-grâce (which means weapons with high crit range will have a fortitude save way lower than say, an axe) in order to keep a +5 bonus. Would have to do some maths.
Well I've had way moooooore input than I ever hoped for.
And the tiger riding bard idea still tickles me.
As for quelling or mediating the power of the vorpal sword (which can and should be powerful but rare).
Somebody's noted the DR factor of a +1 vorpal weapon already, I see.
So, here's my 2cp: Make sure they're intelligent. Even a +1 vorpal sword could be pushing an ego of 21 or more with enough powers/intelligence/ability scores. A simple alignment might make it costly to wield. Then, even if two are found, they most certainly wouldn't want to share a wielder, or if their purposes are compatible, maybe they would, just to make sure the poor guy does what he's told.
Another devious suggestion: Maybe the BBEG put them out there for the PCs to find, to lure them into a trap and then disarm or turn the weapons on them. A dramatic turnaround is a great staple of adventure fiction.
Or, for cutting into the power of the vorpal sword, to make it easy, give the victim a save. Maybe equal to the wielders BAB plus the sword's enhancement bonus (plus 'skill at arms' bonuses, like weapon focus, specialization, fighter weapon training, etc.).
Also, remember that many critters aren't really threatened by decapitation: golems, undead, elementals, etc. And it's DM fiat whether or not a particular critter dies because of it. I can think of at least one Golarion example that has the head of a fiend surviving long past separation from the body...
Player: "Ha! I chop of the Balor's head! I'm going to attack the guy over here."
DM: "While you attack the other fellow, the Balor picks his head. up and puts it back on again."
For the counter PC w/ vorpal vs NPC, I have and had one rebuttal - "Wizards"Seriously people. +5 Keen Scythe > Vorpal anything.Really? Tarn Linnorm with 385hp? One vorpal kills it. Can any single crit from the scythe kill it? Even at max damage?
Ahem. I got a little bored at work, so I puzzled this one out. This assumes a cold iron Scythe +5, XX Burst (that can harm the critter in question), holy/unholy (that can harm the critter in question), vicious weapon, rolling a 19 or 20 on the attack roll (and that the 19 hits, which it probably will)
(cracks knuckles and reminds audience that these are quick and dirty calculations, and I absolve myself from legal responsibility if you try to use them in your game)
---------------------------
Example 1) Deadly Stroke attack. Assumes following feats, effects and abilities from PF Core:
Scythe Master: 20th level fighter, Heavy Blades Training +4, Focus, Specialization, Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, Deadly Stroke, Power Attack, Enlarge Person, Improved Critical
12d6 + (4*6) (Weapon Training) + (5*6) (+5 weapon) + 3d10 (burst weapon) 1d6 (burst weapon) + 2d6 (holy/unholy) + 2d6 (vicious) +15*6 (strength of 30=advancement+items+enlarge x1.5 for two-handed weapon + 4*6 (Greater Specialization) +18*6 (power attack)
12d6+3d10+1d6+2d6+2d6+276 (Plus con bleed!)
Max: 132 + 276 = 408 points of damage
Rough Average: 76 +276= 352 points of damage
Assumes that the 'double damage' from Deadly stroke applies to all facets so the multiplier is 5 (for scythe plus weapon mastery) plus one (for deadly stroke)
-------------------------------
Example 2) For the folks that say it might be hard to stun the linnorm in question, useable once per round
Scythe Master: 20th level fighter, Heavy Blades Training +4, Focus, Specialization, Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, Power Attack, Greater Vital Strike, Enlarge Person, Improved Critical:
16d6 + (4*5) (Weapon Training) + (5*5) (+5 weapon) + 3d10 (burst weapon) 1d6 (burst weapon) + 2d6 (holy/unholy) + 2d6 (vicious) +15*5 (strength of 30=advancement+items+enlarge x1.5 for two-handed weapon) + 4*5 (Greater Specialization) +18*5 (power attack)
18d6+3d10+1d6+2d6+2d6+230
Max: 156+230 = 386 points of damage
Average: 90+230 = 320 points of damage
----------------------------------
Both will automatically critical (no roll to confirm threat) on a roll of 19-20 (weapon mastery).
So, yes, a scythe (or pick) can and does do enough damage to take down Mr. Tarn Linnorm in one critical hit, complete with auto confirm and maybe some con and bleed damage (not to mention other critical feats) to boot. Note that it ignores damage reduction and regeneration for various reasons. Also, even if it doesn't critical, the incremental damage is considerable (especially for example 2). Mr. Linnorm could only take so many of those hits.
AND even ignoring the extra damage from Vital Strikes and using multiple attacks, it can be nearly as deadly, subtracting only 68/63 points in the first example and 42/21 points in the second.
Truthfully, the amount would not be reduced that much if you subtract the extra damage dice from burst, holy and vicious.
How much damage can 20th level wizards do in one round again? 32d6 with a well-aimed meteor swarm? Empowered (not that it can be)? 193 points? Empowered Finger of Death? (if I'm calculating correctly, and again, if it's applicable) 300, if they fail the save? (And yes, I know wizards can choose to do that much, where the scythe only has a 10 percent chance per attack to do it).
And the Scyther could do this all day.
--------------------------------
Ouch. Vorpal eat your heart out.
That said, Vorpal weapons are still cooler. :)
The Vital Strike example is actually the better one, but scythe's are 2d4, not 2d6:
XX Burst (x5 crit) = 4d10
Yep. I threw in an enlarge person spell that increased the dice to 2d6 (instead of 4s).
Also, on the burst, x4 is the upper listing of RAW (though if you want to extrapolate, you're more than welcome). After all, the weapon's crit multiplier remains x4, but just happens to have an extra x1 when wielded by a Scythe Master, which may or may not bump the burst damage. I'm inclined to say that it doesn't.
Also, remember that extra damage 'dice' (such as from vicious, holy, burst, sneak attack, etc.) aren't multiplied on a hit (from the SRD):
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
And from critical hits:
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
It's already crazy enough that Power attacks, smites, and everything else gets multiplied. I had a halfling pick fighter that stunned everyone whenever he rolled criticals, just from weapon specialization and a 16 strength.
Imagine a Paladin wielding that scythe against that evil linnorm. Sure, he's minus the weapon mastery/fighter bonuses and specialization, but he adds 40 points to his damage (level*2 for fighting an evil dragon)
Holy Scythe, Batman: 20th level paladin, Smite Evil, Power Attack, Greater Vital Strike, Enlarge Person, Improved Critical:
A normal, non-vital strike attack:
10d6 + (40*5) (smite evil) + (5*5) (+5 weapon) + 3d10 (burst weapon) 1d6 (burst weapon) + 2d6 (holy/unholy) + 2d6 (vicious) +15*5 (strength of 30=advancement+items+enlarge x1.5 for two-handed weapon) +18*5 (power attack)
10d6+3d10+1d6+2d6+2d6+390
Max: 120+390 = 510 points of damage
Average: 69+390 = 459 points of damage
That'll separate yer wheat from yer chaff...
Yes, but you'll reap what you sow...
Or, if you're as hard on clothes as I am, you'll sew what you rip...
(sorry)
Paladin stuff
Whoops. Just realized that the crit multiplier is actually x4, not x5. We'll just assume he's using Deadly Stroke and call it good.
(otherwise it's 78 points less, whoops--I'm sure he'll make it up with spells or something.)
If it bothers you, why not take a cue from 1e and bring back the shapness effect? If a vorpal result is obtained, roll 1d6 to see what gets severed:
(1) Left arm/foreleg/tentacle (loses use of that limb)
(2) Right arm/foreleg/tentacle (loses use of that limb)
(3) Left arm/rear leg/tentacle (-50% speed)
(4) Right arm/rear leg/tentacle (-50% speed)
(5) Head (dies)
(6) Chest cut (no severing, but increase crit multiplier).
Warning to players in my campaign: I'll probably make it so that any confirmed crit severs a limb, and a confirmed natural 20 crit beheads. Watch out for vorpal weapons!
I don't want any of my PC or NPC go around and have a nearly 50% chance to chop whoever's head in one single round just because they happen to dual wield 2 vorpal weapons and do a full attack.
I was thinking of this variant, Vorpal: The weapon's crit multiplier is augmented by TWO steps 9\(ie a battle axe has a crit of 20/x5, a longsword of 19-20/x4).
Not sure it's balanced. It pennalizes warriors with little crit-multipliable damage (rogues, paladins... their smite damage does not multiply on a critical, does it??) and makes warriors with high extra damage insane (specialized fighter, frenzied berserker on power attack or paladin if the smite damage multiplies)
Option number 2: A crit adds another 50 damage. Balanced but untasty and boring.
If the damage done brings the creature to 0hp or less, it is decapitated.
If I knew I would be facing an opponent with not one, but TWO vorpal weapons and 8 attacks a turn, I would take some precautions, like using hit and run tactics(vital strike maybe?) and limiting him to a standard action each turn. Heavy fortification armor, disarm, battlefield control, flight, tanglefoot bags, mirror images, and the like. You get the idea. The running part may be the best option here. Vorpal's kind of cool, but it doesn't hitm e as the end all be all ability. It works only on a natural 20. Just like the elemental burst effects, that's not really that impressive in my mind. Now if you charge up to an ancient wyrm the first round and cut it's head off yes, that is extremely cool, and it's boiling blood should cook you, but that's the way it goes sometimes. The thing could have rolled a 1 on a fort save and died, or a will save and became a pet, and I think how to tame your dragon showed us all what would happen in that circumstance. Anyways, just a goofy post, but I wouldn't worry about a player getting 2 vorpal weapons so much as two +5 wounding speed weapons, because vorpal doesn't cause me to do any extra math, and wounding does.
Seriously people. +5 Keen Scythe > Vorpal anything.Really? Tarn Linnorm with 385hp? One vorpal kills it. Can any single crit from the scythe kill it? Even at max damage?
Doesn't a Tarn Linnorm have TWO heads?
Doesn't a Tarn Linnorm have TWO heads?
Yeah, but they can only think with one at a tim... oh... sorry, wrong discussion.
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I'm not sure really which side I agree with.
The main problem though is.. How do you know Bob the Barbarian has twin vorpal swords? (axes, whatever). Its not like there is a label floating above it saying "warning, this blade is VORPAL!". Generally speaking, you'll know its vorpal when 1) your (or your buddy's) head is laying beside your feet, or 2) when you kill him, loot him, check the loot and "hey neat, this guy had two vorpal blades".
Selgard,
I learned a lesson from Champions. I think their in-house magazine was called "Adventurers Quarterly," and one issue had a Champs adventure set in an eerily quiet research facility. When the PCs enter, they are faced with several deep clawmarks gouged into concrete and steel walls. A sidebar explained that those were intended to warn the players that something actually deadly was up ahead. That was a design lesson I took to heart.
Likewise, if a Pathfinder NPC is heading to rumble against the PCs, armed with two vorpal weapons, it's incumbent on the GM to provide some sort of cue to the players.