Question 1. True or False: A fighter cannot use a wand of cure moderate wounds.
Question 2. True or False: A wizard cannot use a wand of cure moderate wounds.
According to the core rules, neither of these classes have Use Magical Device, the skill necessary to use a wand.
Fighter I kinda/sorta understand, but wizard?! That makes no sense to me!!
Am I reading this correctly?!
Thanks!
Fighter I kinda/sorta understand, but wizard?! That makes no sense to me!!
Am I reading this correctly?!
Thanks!
If they want to buy the skill, they can use it. Just because it's not on your class list does not mean you can't take the skill.
Use magic device is the skill needed to persuade/fake/cajole a magic item to work for you. Wizards don't normally need this, as they know how to legitimately use most magic items.
[bad metaphor]
If you have a key to a door, you don't need to learn to pick locks. Yes, there are doors you can't open, but you have the one for your house, and that's good enough.
[/bad metaphor]
Every class can train Use Magic Device, just for some classes it's a class skill and they get +3 on the check.
Really, read the rules people. :)
I have, multiple times, but 600 pages of rules is a sh*tload of information for a first time player to digest.
So, thanks ... I guess. A page reference would have been appreciated, but don't worry about it -- I wouldn't want to take up more of your precious time.
Thanks for deigning to type your well thought out response.
Fighter I kinda/sorta understand, but wizard?! That makes no sense to me!!
Am I reading this correctly?!
Thanks!
If they want to buy the skill, they can use it. Just because it's not on your class list does not mean you can't take the skill.
Use magic device is the skill needed to persuade/fake/cajole a magic item to work for you. Wizards don't normally need this, as they know how to legitimately use most magic items.
[bad metaphor]
If you have a key to a door, you don't need to learn to pick locks. Yes, there are doors you can't open, but you have the one for your house, and that's good enough.
[/bad metaphor]
Thank you! That makes sense, I suppose. So a wizard has no need to roll to use the wand?
A wizard would need to roll since cure light wounds doesn't appear on his spell list. To use the metaphor, he has a key but not to that door.
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Every class can train Use Magic Device, just for some classes it's a class skill and they get +3 on the check.
Really, read the rules people. :)
I have, multiple times, but 600 pages of rules is a sh*tload of information for a first time player to digest.
So, thanks ... I guess. A page reference would have been appreciated, but don't worry about it -- I wouldn't want to take up more of your precious time.
Thanks for deigning to type your well thought out response.
Page 86. Acquiring Skills. First paragraph after that heading. Right at the start of the Skills section.
A wizard would need to roll since cure light wounds doesn't appear on his spell list. To use the metaphor, he has a key but not to that door.
Ah, now I got it! Thanks!
Anyone can put skill points into UMD.
If you put in enough points you can use spell tigger items such as wands, fool magic items that you're a different alignment, etc on a skill check.
Certain classes has UMD as a class skill. They get a +3 bonus *if* they put a skill rank into UMD.
Wands and UMD:
If the spell cast from the wand is on your PC's class list you can use the wand without making a check.
Examples: A Wizard has Fireball on the class spell list (doesn't matter about not being high enough level to cast it or not being in spellbook etc.) he can use that wand without making a check.
A Wizard using a CLW wand must make a UMD to use it as CLW isn't on a Wizard's spell list.
A Ranger (1st level) picks up a wand of CLW. He doesn't have to make a UMD skill check to use it because CLW is on the list of spells a Ranger can cast.
Wizard puts ranks into UMD and gets a monkey familiar. When the Wizard casts Tongues on the monkey it can use the Wizard Master's UMD skill to operate spell-trigger items such as wands. The monkey has to make a check because he has no "spell list".
You can't take 10 on a UMD check.
Page 86. Acquiring Skills. First paragraph after that heading. Right at the start of the Skills section.Every class can train Use Magic Device, just for some classes it's a class skill and they get +3 on the check.
Really, read the rules people. :)
I have, multiple times, but 600 pages of rules is a sh*tload of information for a first time player to digest.
So, thanks ... I guess. A page reference would have been appreciated, but don't worry about it -- I wouldn't want to take up more of your precious time.
Thanks for deigning to type your well thought out response.
Thanks! I'll read through that fer sure!!
Anyone can put skill points into UMD.
If you put in enough points you can use spell tigger items such as wands, fool magic items that you're a different alignment, etc on a skill check.Certain classes has UMD as a class skill. They get a +3 bonus *if* they put a skill rank into UMD.
Wands and UMD:
If the spell cast from the wand is on your PC's class list you can use the wand without making a check.Examples: A Wizard has Fireball on the class spell list (doesn't matter about not being high enough level to cast it or not being in spellbook etc.) he can use that wand without making a check.
A Wizard using a CLW wand must make a UMD to use it as CLW isn't on a Wizard's spell list.
A Ranger (1st level) picks up a wand of CLW. He doesn't have to make a UMD skill check to use it because CLW is on the list of spells a Ranger can cast.
Wizard puts ranks into UMD and gets a monkey familiar. When the Wizard casts Tongues on the monkey it can use the Wizard Master's UMD skill to operate spell-trigger items such as wands. The monkey has to make a check because he has no "spell list".
You can't take 10 on a UMD check.
Thanks for the in-depth reply!
It's the "trained only" moniker which is throwing me off, but I will have a read through of page 86 as stated above and report back.
Okay, just reviewed pages 86-87.
INCREDIBLY CONFUSING for the uninitiated!!
So, if you take a rank in a 'trained only' skill, you are considered trained in that skill, but you don't get the +3 bonus unless it is a class skill and you put at least one rank into it.
Correct?
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Yup.
If you put at least one rank in a class skill, you get a +3 bonus. NOTE: It's not a +3/rank bonus, it's a flat one-time bonus of +3.
I take that you are new to 3.5 in general, in that case make sure not to confuse with 3.5 skill system, which was somewhat different (and really counter-intuitive).
Yup.
If you put at least one rank in a class skill, you get a +3 bonus. NOTE: It's not a +3/rank bonus, it's a flat one-time bonus of +3.
I take that you are new to 3.5 in general, in that case make sure not to confuse with 3.5 skill system, which was somewhat different (and really counter-intuitive).
Yep, thanks. I knew about the flat +3, but the entire 'trained skills' thing was beyond me until it came up recently in play, which is really the only way to really learn the ins/outs of the rules.
I'm DEAD new to 3.5/Pathfinder, having spent the past 20+ years playing B/X and Labyrinth Lord!
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Also, remember that some skills are trained-only. Such skills can be used only if you put at least 1 rank into them. All other skills can be used without having ranks in them (usually meaning that your roll is a d20 + attribute modifier), but trained-only skills are just that. UMD is one of such skills, you need ranks in it to be able to use it.
Okay, just reviewed pages 86-87.
INCREDIBLY CONFUSING for the uninitiated!!
So, if you take a rank in a 'trained only' skill, you are considered trained in that skill, but you don't get the +3 bonus unless it is a class skill and you put at least one rank into it.
Correct?
Yes.
There are two separate rules going on there.
1st: Trained skills. Some skills require training and cannot be attempted unless you have ranks in the given skill.
2nd: Class skills. Some skills come more readily to members of one class than to others. When you are trained (i.e. have ranks in) a class skill you get a +3 bonus on rolls for that skill.
Hope that helps,
James
It does. Thanks!
Also, remember that some skills are trained-only. Such skills can be used only if you put at least 1 rank into them. All other skills can be used without having ranks in them (usually meaning that your roll is a d20 + attribute modifier), but trained-only skills are just that. UMD is one of such skills, you need ranks in it to be able to use it.
Got it.
Whew. It's unfortunate that Pathfinder is NOT written for someone who has never seen 3.5 before. It assumes a lot.
Annoying lol.
Thanks!
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You might try looking at someone else's character sheet for a 1st level character. Then look at it again when the character is 4th level. That should help some of the math jive together a little better.
I know for me, it took awhile for the class skill thing to gel: It's a class skill (something your type of char does well) so you get a bonus. Okay, that makes sense. Trained skills are those you have put some time and effort into learning. Represented by spending skill points on them. Okay, got it. Then I can look at the numbers on the sheet and compare them to what I think they should be.
There are some sample sheets all over the place, but getting one from an official source is probably best so as to minimize mistakes and "house rules". Paizo has 1st and 4th level PCs pregenerated for their Pathfinder Society games available here on their site. Search for "pfs pregen" and you should find them.
You can't take 10 on a UMD check.
Really? It makes sense that in combat you can't take 10 (or 20 for that matter) but out of combat? I don't get that... unless on a '1' the Magic Device backfires on you.
Anybody got a page ref on this?
You might try looking at someone else's character sheet for a 1st level character. Then look at it again when the character is 4th level. That should help some of the math jive together a little better.
I know for me, it took awhile for the class skill thing to gel: It's a class skill (something your type of char does well) so you get a bonus. Okay, that makes sense. Trained skills are those you have put some time and effort into learning. Represented by spending skill points on them. Okay, got it. Then I can look at the numbers on the sheet and compare them to what I think they should be.
There are some sample sheets all over the place, but getting one from an official source is probably best so as to minimize mistakes and "house rules". Paizo has 1st and 4th level PCs pregenerated for their Pathfinder Society games available here on their site. Search for "pfs pregen" and you should find them.
Thanks!
You can't take 10 on a UMD check.Really? It makes sense that in combat you can't take 10 (or 20 for that matter) but out of combat? I don't get that... unless on a '1' the Magic Device backfires on you.
Anybody got a page ref on this?
I actually know the answer to this! =P
Page 109, "Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check."
You can't take 10 on a UMD check.Really? It makes sense that in combat you can't take 10 (or 20 for that matter) but out of combat? I don't get that... unless on a '1' the Magic Device backfires on you.
Anybody got a page ref on this?
I actually know the answer to this! =P
Page 109, "Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check."
Ninja!
Saved me copy and pasting, thank you :)
Obrigado, gents on the Take 10 stuff... any idea on the logic behind it?
I assume it's an attempt to keep UMD from becoming 100% dependable, except at the highest of levels. If you need a 20 to activate a wand, IIRC, then 4 ranks in UMD plus 3 for a class skill plus three for an attribute bonus plus taking 10 would mean a 100% chance to use any wand in the game. As opposed to a 50/50 chance if you have to roll for it.
My thought is that its supposed to be highly random, but only a vestigial rule...
Grand! UMD... the 'Appendix' of the Pathfinder 'Body'. :)
CAW!
Obrigado, gents on the Take 10 stuff... any idea on the logic behind it?
I guess the logic behind it is that once you triggered the "it" there is no going back.
Personally I see Taking 10 and 20 as trying hand holds before climbing, gulping a mouth full of water when swimming, waiting for that exact moment to cross the court yard in darkness...
With UMD its all or nothing.
Whew. It's unfortunate that Pathfinder is NOT written for someone who has never seen 3.5 before. It assumes a lot.
Annoying lol.
Thanks!
The 3.5e skills were even more complex. For someone coming from 3.5e, it's a matter of learning what is no longer true. I spent a half-hour trying to find the rules for "cross-class skills" in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. (So-called "cross-class skills" don't exist as a Pathfinder rule.)
3.5e skill stuff that doesn't apply to Pathfinder:
The skill system is much simplified from 3.5e, both because multiple skills have been combined into single skills (Hide+Move Silently combined to Stealth, Jump+Tumble combined to Acrobatics, Spot+Listen+Search combined into Perception, Speak Language+Forgery combined into Linguistics, etc.) and because the rules for skill points and their distribution have been significantly simplified.
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I don't think it's that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was necessarily written for someone with a background in 3.5e, I think the book puts too much in the glossary/appendix that should be initially explained in the main rule text. I have a background in 3.5e and I've bounced all over the book trying to clarify a rule before. (Don't get me wrong, I think the game system is great, I just think the book's arrangement isn't always very user-friendly for rules clarity.)