While contemplating possible character idea's, one idea that popped into my head was a practitioner of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido]Iaido[/link], which consists of drawing and sheathing your weapon with every strike.
I was pondering how to portray this with 3.5/PRPG rules . . .
Off the top of my head I would say a high Dexterity, Quick Draw, and Weapon Finesse at the very least. Anyone else given this any thought?
Of course, I could just label it all fluff, but what's the point of that?
While contemplating possible character idea's, one idea that popped into my head was a practitioner of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido]Iaido[/link], which consists of drawing and sheathing your weapon with every strike.
I was pondering how to portray this with 3.5/PRPG rules . . .
Off the top of my head I would say a high Dexterity, Quick Draw, and Weapon Finesse at the very least. Anyone else given this any thought?
Of course, I could just label it all fluff, but what's the point of that?
Iaido the code word is URL, not link. but what you suggested could work, now we need a way to finesse the katana.
The Aldori dueling sword functions much like a katana. It can be wielded with two hands and is usable with weapon finesse.
So were you thinking the Draw/Strike/sheathe be incorporated into EACH attack...as in the fighter swings his sword 3 times in his full attack round (no movement) and your guy does Draw/Swing/sheathe ,Draw/Swing/sheathe, Draw/Swing/sheathe.
I like the concept and I have seen it before...but I think it would be best if this was a background thing...
My guy attacks 3 times
( everyone at the table knows he is drawing and sheathing) as opposed to handling it in rules...you may run into some time issues when you get higher levels...and if you have a GM like me...you may have to roll ability checks in multiple strikes.
Out of curiosity...did you plan on having him *snap* his sword before sheathing to clear the blood off it as well?
Every previous attempt at a Samurai class has touched on Iaido. Take a look at them for inspiration. (It's usually just a combination of quick draw and an initiative bonus)
My understanding of that Art is that it is used as an 'instant reaction'/fast draw, hit the opponent, then sheathe the weapon.
The draw is fast, the sheathe is not.
The problem here is that unless you are one-shotting opponents (which you may well be doing in the real world) you wouldn't be drawing and sheathing between strikes.
In the real world Iaido has a point because of the nature of the fighting.
Two opponents go for it, and usually one of them hits. The other doesn't need to worry about sheathing his sword.
Yeah pretty much agree with the way CN has put it.
Its a 'first step', not a fighting art.
Thanks for the info all. I think between High Dex, Improved Initative, QuickDraw, the Vital Strike Line, and Weapon Finesse Feats, I've got the foundation for my character.
I understand what you are saying Cold Naplam/Shifty, so at this point I doubt I'd have him sheath the sword after each attack. Granted, if he does end up one-shotting something, There'd be no reason he couldn't (Yes, Teneck, after the appropriate 'snap').
Thanks for the info all. I think between High Dex, Improved Initative, QuickDraw, the Vital Strike Line, and Weapon Finesse Feats, I've got the foundation for my character.
I understand what you are saying Cold Naplam/Shifty, so at this point I doubt I'd have him sheath the sword after each attack. Granted, if he does end up one-shotting something, There'd be no reason he couldn't (Yes, Teneck, after the appropriate 'snap').
WOOT
3 snaps in a Z formation y'all
Also, the Samurai class in 4WFG's Paths of Power has Iaijutsu as a combat style, which evolves into Battojutsu at 11th level. There are specific techniques learned on the Iaijutsu path, such as Reverse Draw, Sitting Draw, Senbongiri, Kabuto Wari, Raijukengiri, Swallow-Tail Cut, Tameshigiri, and Turning Draw.
Page 41 of oriental adventures has the Iaijutsu Master prestige class. Granted it is 3.0, it might give you some ideas though.
Pretty much exactly, yep. Pretty complicated way of handling it (especially with vital strike feats now), but it works.
iaido is an art. It's not a fighting system. You would draw and strike, but if you didn't kill, you kept fighting normally. So all you need is quickdraw.
What CN said :) Iaido is a "way", a modern philosophic derivation of a classic combat art. Iaijutsu is the combat art / technique. And yeah, quick draw would pretty much do it. After that it's kenjutsu (the art of the sword). Nitokenjutsu if you want to use two swords. If you're interested in the Japanese feudal combat arts I would suggest finding a copy of "Secrets of the Samurai" by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. An excellent survey of the Japanese combat arts. It will give you a better overview and more in depth information than about any other single source. Imho, of course.
If you're interested in the Japanese feudal combat arts I would suggest finding a copy of "Secrets of the Samurai" by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. An excellent survey of the Japanese combat arts. It will give you a better overview and more in depth information than about any other single source. Imho, of course.
I used to have a copy of that book, and it was great. I wish I knew what happened to it.
OP: If you could find a way to incorporate the Iaijutsu Focus skill that OA had it would probably help. See if your DM will allow it.
Also, the Samurai class in 4WFG's Paths of Power has Iaijutsu as a combat style, which evolves into Battojutsu at 11th level. There are specific techniques learned on the Iaijutsu path, such as Reverse Draw, Sitting Draw, Senbongiri, Kabuto Wari, Raijukengiri, Swallow-Tail Cut, Tameshigiri, and Turning Draw.
4WFG?
flick of the wrist from races of the wild emulates iaijutsu pretty well...
I have actually been thinking of something like this for a while, just taking the Duelist class and replacing "Light or One handed Piercing weapons" with a specific weapon that then gains the benefits of Weapon Finesse and the Duelist class features. Yeah, light or 1h piercing works for rapier and dagger, but with RAW a duelist can use a halfspear while "dueling".
I orginally got the idea from the Iaijutsu Master from OA.
Not trying to hijack the thread here, but it seems like a pertinent arguement. talk to your DM and see if you can be a duelist that uses Bastard Swords.
Also, the Samurai class in 4WFG's Paths of Power has Iaijutsu as a combat style, which evolves into Battojutsu at 11th level. There are specific techniques learned on the Iaijutsu path, such as Reverse Draw, Sitting Draw, Senbongiri, Kabuto Wari, Raijukengiri, Swallow-Tail Cut, Tameshigiri, and Turning Draw.4WFG?
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. A third party publisher of materiel compatible with Pathfinder. To whit: Paths of Power (which includes a samurai class as has been mentioned above - I would call it a "bushi" (warrior) class). The techniques mentioned in LB's post are specific draws / cuts in iaijutsu. Designed to take out opponents in different orientations / positions and numbers. Battojutsu is a form of iai popularized by it's use in the Japanese military (post Meiji restoration) and several classic combat schools. Iirc the, rough, translation of battojutsu is the art of "drawing the sword" or "cutting", as is true of aiajutsu.
This turned out to be an interesting thread for two reasons. Iai could be described as "surprise, I am not surprised!" and the draws (not strikes or cuts) are lethal--meaning critical or vital. They can be stacked one after another as they all start and end at the waist. Three vital feats per round? On the other hand it is not practiced with armor, I do not know if tournaments are legal, but when they occur fighters wear only a Gi with Hakama. They stand barely more than a sword handle apart and draw with a cut similar to old west gunfighters after a momentary staredown. So, a practitioner of Iai does not need to be consider un-ready, unarmed or flat-footed--whether or not armor is involved.
And besides all that, a character succesfully completing an Iai draw (sheathing at the end of it or not) could also--possibly--be considered automatically flanking as a mid-level specific.
This turned out to be an interesting thread for two reasons. Iai could be described as "surprise, I am not surprised!" and the draws (not strikes or cuts) are lethal--meaning critical or vital. They can be stacked one after another as they all start and end at the waist. Three vital feats per round? On the other hand it is not practiced with armor, I do not know if tournaments are legal, but when they occur fighters wear only a Gi with Hakama. They stand barely more than a sword handle apart and draw with a cut similar to old west gunfighters after a momentary staredown. So, a practitioner of Iai does not need to be consider un-ready, unarmed or flat-footed--whether or not armor is involved.
The draw and the cut are one. The strikes are lethal *if* they connect. Almost every blow in any Japanese sword technique is pretty much lethal or will lead to a messy bleed out (well, except maybe yadomejutsu -- arrow cutting, deflecting / cutting arrows with a sword iirc). If they connect. They are very offence oriented. Two practitioners of iaijutsu can even manage a "mutual slaying" if they connect. In real life. In an RPG involving levels and hit points I don't see too many auto-kills coming out of a single attack on a regular basis. Or every fighter would be using the same ability. It would be like allowing Assassinss to whip out their instant kill ability at will multiple times a round. Not too likely.
As for the surprise, or lack thereof, combine Quickdraw and Improved Intitative (and maybe Combat Reflexes and a few others) and you're as close as D&D / PF will take you to iaijutsu imo. In the end, I think anyone can be surprised even if it is unlikely.
|
Even in real life, you can connect and still not have a fatal or even fight ending blow...especially with armor involved. All Iaijitsu does is give you quickdraw in all honesty. The noto (sheathing) of the blade is never done very quickly...and there is no evidence that chiburi (the snap) was done in real sword fights. More likely, they wiped their blade of blood and guts before putting their sword back into the saya (scabbard) as blood is highly corrosive...and even a small amount of it soaking into the saya would be horrible for the blade. Forget what you see in pop culture if you wanna know what is real. However there is nothing wrong with trying to recreate what is in pop culture in a fantasy game...you just have to realize the difference.
Based on the discussion here and a back-and-forth with my groups resident "crunch" guy, I pretty much have the stats firmed up for this character.
High Dex Rogue with Improved Initiative feat, Quickdraw feat, the Vital Strike feat line, Weapon Finesse as Rogue talent, Weapon Focus as Rogue talent, and the Keen Weapon Enhancement.
Rogue will have slower BAB than fighter, but having Sneak Attack damage added to that first strike (opponent most likely flat footed when I beat their initiative, right?) will be nice.
Now just to decide on the fluff . . . probably more important. Though, I have been considering naming him Paladin, and have his business card read "Have Sword, Will Travel" . . .
Even in real life, you can connect and still not have a fatal or even fight ending blow...especially with armor involved. All Iaijitsu does is give you quickdraw in all honesty. The noto (sheathing) of the blade is never done very quickly...and there is no evidence that chiburi (the snap) was done in real sword fights. More likely, they wiped their blade of blood and guts before putting their sword back into the saya (scabbard) as blood is highly corrosive...and even a small amount of it soaking into the saya would be horrible for the blade. Forget what you see in pop culture if you wanna know what is real. However there is nothing wrong with trying to recreate what is in pop culture in a fantasy game...you just have to realize the difference.
In all honesty this is an example of why nobody is out there using "instant kill ability." It does exist and it does work. All in the same vein, where are all the flying elbows and body slams in RPGing? I swear to you, there are some dangerous people out there who really can do these things. Besides that, do you think they are surrounded with competitors? No, they eliminate the competition. Just because something is flashy, graceful, and promises a quick end everytime people are always saying it is fake. Iai, just like Professional Wrestling, is not truly represented. IMHO :)
The elven curveblade is functionally a katana, save that it's finesseable.
There is also a feat (in Draconic Compendium I think) that allows you to draw and strike your foe sans their dex bonus - great for getting in that sneak attack.
Know what you guys mean about these techniques IRL - I too have seen some real masters in action.
Which weapon?
In anycase, if your gonna make use of vital strike, you may wanna get the miss chances feats in as well.
At this point, due to laziness to do research, I'm leaning toward short sword or rapier. Not quite the exact same imagery as iaido/jutsu, but I think the theme of what I'm trying to do stays intact.
"Miss Chance" feats?
In all honesty this is an example of why nobody is out there using "instant kill ability." It does exist and it does work. All in the same vein, where are all the flying elbows and body slams in RPGing? I swear to you, there are some dangerous people out there who really can do these things. Besides that, do you think they are surrounded with competitors? No, they eliminate the competition. Just because something is flashy, graceful, and promises a quick end everytime people are always saying it is fake. Iai, just like Professional Wrestling, is not truly represented. IMHO :)
Nobody is saying iaijutsu is fake. I'm familiar with the range of Japanese feudal combat arts. In combat, unlike practice, things often don't go perfectly. In theory every blow should land and everyone should drop an opponent. Doesn't happen. The other guy generally has his own plans. They involve you doing the dying rather than him :)
Which weapon?
In anycase, if your gonna make use of vital strike, you may wanna get the miss chances feats in as well.
At this point, due to laziness to do research, I'm leaning toward short sword or rapier. Not quite the exact same imagery as iaido/jutsu, but I think the theme of what I'm trying to do stays intact.
"Miss Chance" feats?
I would definitely recommend the Elven Curveblade. It screams "twohanded katana/wushu blade" style. It's finessable, and it has an extended crit range (so with Improved Crit or Keen, it's going to critical 30% of the time). Two handed so Power Attack gives more (for those times when you are fighting lightly armored foes and need less attack bonus).
The only drawback compared to other twohanded weapons is that it is only single dice damage, so it's a little behind in the Vital Strike curve.
The Quickdraw/Improved Initiative feats are, of course, mandatory. Some other suggestions however:
- Lunge: This allows you to gain reach with that first strike, and surprise your opponents even more. Nice option to have overall (although keep in mind, it only counts for attacks during your turn, so you won't threaten that reach after your turn).
- Spring Attack: For the same reasons as Lunge, only even further for that single attack. Does it stack with Vital Strike or not? I can't remember the outcome of that thread...
Dodge and Mobility are thematically nice as well.
- Whirlwind Strike: If you are getting Spring Attack anyways, then go for this. Make that one draw strike everyone around you.
- Cleave: Similar to Whirlwind Strike, and easier to obtain. If you are getting a two-handed weapon and Power Attack, it just makes sense anyways.
.
Getting all these feats will be a bit hard as a full Rogue. As a full Fighter, you could gain all these options quite a bit quicker, have full movement and Dex bonus even in medium/heavy armor (imagining a fully armored samurai doing iaido), you'd have a higher chance to hit things between both full BAB and Weapon Training (which also increases damage nicely).
It would also give you more options/alternatives to that single strike. Vital Strike for when you want to make that one big hit, but then faster/more iteratives when you want to make the lightning strikes after a quickdraw, etc.
Fighter and Rogue are a very good combination, losing little in the multi-class (since chance to hit improvement offsets lower sneak attack, and vice versa). And levels in Rogue can give additional options not normally available to a Fighter, like Surprise Attack or Stand Up.
|
|
In all honesty this is an example of why nobody is out there using "instant kill ability." It does exist and it does work. All in the same vein, where are all the flying elbows and body slams in RPGing? I swear to you, there are some dangerous people out there who really can do these things. Besides that, do you think they are surrounded with competitors? No, they eliminate the competition. Just because something is flashy, graceful, and promises a quick end everytime people are always saying it is fake. Iai, just like Professional Wrestling, is not truly represented. IMHO :)
Your honestly comparing iaido to professional wrestling? I have done iaido and I practice iaijitsu now and I...well I feel rather insulted by that comparison. Yeah it works...but you know what else works? Armor. A katana is not some magical thing that cleave through armor. Oh and there is dodging attacks...blocking and binding. Iaido is quickdraw. As for the flying elbow...well the last time somebody tried that on me, he ended up getting slammed into the ground by my axe kick. Body slam...yeah perfect position to crush the guy´s nards. Those don´t actually work...please don´t use them as examples when compared to iaido.
I think James Jacobs said that the way he'd run it is that Spring Attack and Vital Strike CAN be used together - you leap in, do a massive cut, and leap out.
Yes, he definitely has.
Cold Napalm; So you personally disproved Pro Wrestling with use of an "Axe-Kick?" I am not sure if I would respect that claim more or less if you used Korean. NIU was a long time ago, it seems, you mean Dooki-Chigi? What did you do the last time someone switched you standing into the Hurricane Arch? Professional Wrestling is awfully real, my friend. And also, I certainly mentioned armor in my post and gave a suggestions for simulating Iai against an armored opponent. Besides that, not everybody who can wear armor does. Chainmail versus a Katana would not be so wonderful for the guy who thinks drawing cuts don't work on armor. It is a matter of speed, leverage, strength and force--not to forget experience.
Actually, there are few armors that would be better against the drawing slices used in eastern swordplay. Chainmail was designed to stop a blade or an arrow from injuring. It's weakness, however, lied in blunt force attacks. Hit a man in chainmail with a mace, and he is down for the count. however, trying to slice him open like an orange would work only if his chainlmail was made of aluminum foil.
|
I didn't notice anyone else mention it, but Dazzling Display (and the next feat on that tree) would also be something to look at in keeping the fluff side.
Forget Weapon Finesse, unless you need it for your character, but it hasn't anything to do with the fighting style.
I would suggest, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes (AoO if you haven't acted yet), Imp Initiative, Power Attack/vital Strike/Cleave, Dazzling Display as feats to go for.
|
|
Cold Napalm; So you personally disproved Pro Wrestling with use of an "Axe-Kick?" I am not sure if I would respect that claim more or less if you used Korean. NIU was a long time ago, it seems, you mean Dooki-Chigi? What did you do the last time someone switched you standing into the Hurricane Arch? Professional Wrestling is awfully real, my friend. And also, I certainly mentioned armor in my post and gave a suggestions for simulating Iai against an armored opponent. Besides that, not everybody who can wear armor does. Chainmail versus a Katana would not be so wonderful for the guy who thinks drawing cuts don't work on armor. It is a matter of speed, leverage, strength and force--not to forget experience.
And grabbing the nards...don´t forget that. And an axe kick isn´t something that is ONLY used in korean martial arts...in fact there are some euro martial arts that use such an action as well...not that it is generally a good thing to use. I´m sure a professional wrestler could kick my butt...but not because of the techniques of professional wrestling, but because he is bigger and faster and in MUCH better shape then I am.
As for your idea of cutting through chain...HAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, pretty much any tests that has actually been done says no. Even tests using butted chain on deadliest warrior says no. Much less tests me and other serious students of the sword have done with riveted chain. Hell even axes have trouble cutting through riveted chain. And this is before you add plate and leather and padding to the mix. Even against the lacquered japanese armor, your not cutting through the armor...your gonna try to BYPASS the armor. Not even your professional wrestler will generate the power needed to cut steel with a sword. If you honestly believe that a katana can cut steel, I know for a fact that you don´t study iaido or iaijitsu from any respectable source and quite frankly you think pro wrestling is real so that kinda just drives the point home.
Some axes were designed to penetrate chainmail, and could. With any kind of sword, it was better to thrust than hack. A western sword was optimised for thrusting, a katana wasn't, although it could thrust effectively. The best way of striking armour was to aim for the parts that weren't armoured - all sword styles focussed on this, be they eastern or western.
The katana was without doubt the most lethal sword vs an unarmoured opponent. It's advantage was not just it's cutting power - other swords could cut as well - but the combination of cutting power, speed and control. These factors compensate for the lack of weight when facing armour because of your ability to find chinks in the armour more easily.
As for axe-kicks, I can recall from my own martial arts training that they could be effective - but you had to set them up, typically by pining the other guy with a lock or hold or having him on the ground first.
Or wait til a moron flying elbows you, side step and kick him to the curb :) .
As for axe-kicks, I can recall from my own martial arts training that they could be effective - but you had to set them up, typically by pining the other guy with a lock or hold or having him on the ground first.
That works too!
I didn't notice anyone else mention it, but Dazzling Display (and the next feat on that tree) would also be something to look at in keeping the fluff side.
Interesting . . . very interesting.
Forget Weapon Finesse, unless you need it for your character, but it hasn't anything to do with the fighting style.
I think the reason I added Weapon Finesse to the list is my initial thought was to have high dex for the initiative modifier and therefore it's plausible that the character's dex would be higher than strength.
But I do take your meaning.
I would definitely recommend the Elven Curveblade. It screams "twohanded katana/wushu blade" style. It's finessable, and it has an extended crit range (so with Improved Crit or Keen, it's going to critical 30% of the time). Two handed so Power Attack gives more (for those times when you are fighting lightly armored foes and need less attack bonus).
The only drawback compared to other twohanded weapons is that it is only single dice damage, so it's a little behind in the Vital Strike curve.
Stats I see for Elven Curved Blade have a normal Crit range with higher multiplier . . . not sure where you're looking.
Stats I see for Elven Curved Blade have a normal Crit range with higher multiplier . . . not sure where you're looking.
Curve blade, elven 80 gp 1d8 1d10 18–20/×2 — 7 lbs. S
Here or in the Core Rulebook.
Its not a body slam, but try and watch some footage of Cung Le. He was the K-1 champion for a bit, I think. I remember watching him in one match where he used a belly-to-back suplex on his opponent several times in the match. Ref had to call it when the other guy couldn't stand up straight after the fourth or fifth one.
You don't see it often, but wrestling techniques can be very dangerous.
On the other hand, 'professional wrestling' is a soap opera with badly choreographed fights. I used to atch a lot, and have two friends who can usually predict a match move for move on a live broadcast.
Wow. There have to be more ninjas and bad asses in D&D groups than I've ever seen. It's a wonder jocks ever got a chance to pick on nerds, considering how many Rambos there are in the gaming community, apparently.
;)
LOL, well, not just nerds play D&D, although I certainly was in school. I didn't do martial arts until my mid-twenties, and only for a few years. I'm now in my forties and that expanding middle of mine denies that I was ever a clean, lean, fighting machine <sigh> age is so unfair ...
Curve blade, elven 80 gp 1d8 1d10 18–20/×2 — 7 lbs. S
Here or in the Core Rulebook.
Hmmm. . . I had looked at the Campaign Setting Book first . . . I stand corrected.
|
|
LOL, well, not just nerds play D&D, although I certainly was in school. I didn't do martial arts until my mid-twenties, and only for a few years. I'm now in my forties and that expanding middle of mine denies that I was ever a clean, lean, fighting machine <sigh> age is so unfair ...Wow. There have to be more ninjas and bad asses in D&D groups than I've ever seen. It's a wonder jocks ever got a chance to pick on nerds, considering how many Rambos there are in the gaming community, apparently.
;)
Me, I spent my youths as a hooligan so I learned to fight first, be a nerd later in life. That works out best as being a nerd when your older is fine...being a holligan when your young is also fine...so I just did it proper like is all :) .
|
|
Which weapon?
In anycase, if your gonna make use of vital strike, you may wanna get the miss chances feats in as well.
At this point, due to laziness to do research, I'm leaning toward short sword or rapier. Not quite the exact same imagery as iaido/jutsu, but I think the theme of what I'm trying to do stays intact.
"Miss Chance" feats?
Wind stance...gives you 20% miss chance vs missile attacks when you move more then 5 feet. Combined with leap attack and vital strike for full effect.