Improved Natural
Attack Attacks made by one of this creature’s natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Improve natural attack says choose one of the creature's natural attack forms. So I assume if you picked claws it would effect both claws and not just one. If I'm wrong then the rest of the question doesn't matter.
In the case of an animal like a dire lion if you improved claws and used rake would the rake damage also go up?
yes if it you choose claws it effects both claws (or as many claws as the creature has in the case of a creature that gets more then two claw attacks such as a girallon.
technically by the book it would not increase the lions rake attacks, though I think that it would make sense to do so.
yes if it you choose claws it effects both claws (or as many claws as the creature has in the case of a creature that gets more then two claw attacks such as a girallon.
technically by the book it would not increase the lions rake attacks, though I think that it would make sense to do so.
Thanks, that's what I thought, so a special that works on the claws like rake or rend would be left up to the GM but normally makes senses to do so imo.
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I have a different question on this feat. I keep seeing people talk about stacking this feat on a monster (or worse a monk) multiple times. From what I can see, it should not stack with itself on the same natural attack.
If I am wrong on this, can someone please point me to the text?
Here is the full text on the feat from the PRD:
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms. The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
btb you can not stack INA with itself, nor can you even take the feat more then once, all feats that can be taken multiple times says so in the special section, which INA lacks completely (although I would probably allow it to be taken more then once as long as each time applied to a separate natural attack, much like weapon focus, in my games).
I have a different question on this feat. I keep seeing people talk about stacking this feat on a monster (or worse a monk) multiple times. From what I can see, it should not stack with itself on the same natural attack.
If I am wrong on this, can someone please point me to the text?
You are correct, specifically:
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
As Improved Natural Attack does not indicate otherwise, it does not stack with itself
OTOH, I do feel that the average +1 hp increase in damage dealt per attack (+0.5 for the little guys) offered by the feat is hardly worth it, compared to Weapon Focus at +2 or any number of other feats with greater benefit. I rarely use it any more in monster design. This fact does make it tempting to institute a "Half-Feat" system for "weaker" feats or else institute a House Rule that INA affects all natural attacks. Dragons will like that one, so I find making it a "half-feat" per attack form a better system.
FWIW,
Rez
Unless I'm misunderstanding you you are confusing Weapon Focus with Weapon Specialization. Weapon Focus only gives a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. There are very few feats that bump up damage it self. While something like Power Attack is normally better for damage INA has no draw back.
In the case of an animal like a dire lion if you improved claws and used rake would the rake damage also go up?
I would say no, since there's at least one creature who does less damage with its rake attacks than with its claw attacks (namely the griffon).
I would say no, since there's at least one creature who does less damage with its rake attacks than with its claw attacks (namely the griffon).
In the case of an animal like a dire lion if you improved claws and used rake would the rake damage also go up?
In the case of a griffon the rake is done with the rear claws which are 1d4. The griffon also has 2 talons in the front that deal 1d6. I haven't looked at every creature but so far every one that I've looked at that has a claw attack and rakes with it does the same damage as the claw attack.
I guess in the lion case the question would really be would INA enchant both the front and rear claws or just the front.
compared to Weapon Focus at +2you are confusing Weapon Focus with Weapon Specialization.Not confusing, just mis-typing and poorly proof-reading. My bad.
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would INA enchant both the front and rear claws or just the front.Minor point, but INA is [Ex] rather than [Su], so you probably mean "enhance" rather than "enchant". It will continue to function in an anti-magic field.
Tag ... you're it on semantics/proof-reading :-)
R.
Bah, you got me I was replying quickly and glazed over the reply, I did mean to type enhance.
Once point about Weapon Specialization you have to have Weapon Focus and be a 4th-level fighter so a lion couldn't take it or a non fighter class with a natural attack.
You have mentioned it a few times that INA is a poor feat.Maybe I'm not understanding some of the other feats out there but what would you suggest other than power attack for combat with natural weapons.
stuff about multiple stacks
It is balanced if you use it as written. Once you start having medium creatures that hit as hard as huge creatures things start to get really bad for the players. There is a reason why certain feats can only be taken once. I would definitely take INA over Weapon Focus. Going from 1d8 to 2d6 with a +1 to hit(taking wpn focus and INA), just go to 3d6(take INA twice). My money is on 3d6.My max damage just went from 8 to 18 with only two feats. The vital strike tree has a similar affect, but you are limited to one attack. With INA stacking you get the same affect for every attack.
You have mentioned it a few times that INA is a poor feat.Maybe I'm not understanding some of the other feats out there but what would you suggest other than power attack for combat with natural weapons.
Though it would not be much of a benifit to a lion (or any other creature with pounce) Vital strike can be a good feat to give creatures that have a fairly decent sized natural attack already, and it can be combined with INA quite effectively...
take a dire boar for example... it normally gets 1 attack that deals 2d6+9, replace its skill focus (Perception) feat with vital strike and it can do 4d6+9 with its attack... add 2 racial HD so it gets another feat and take INA an its gore goes up to 3d6+9 or 6d6+9 on a vital strike... that's not to shabby, and since the boar only has 1 attack anyway it doesn't lose out on anything by vital striking with every attack. (Just noticed that you need to advance the dire boar to 9 HD before it can qualify for vital strike anyway... but in any case it was just an example).
Vital strike is less desirable for creature with multiple attack, though, especially if they have pounce which allows them to move (charge) and make a full attack anyway. but it can still be worth it if one of the creatures attacks deals a lot more damage then the others.
One fun thing I wanted to do with this was have an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen (giving 2 1d6 claws and 1 1d8 bite) using enlarge person and INA.
So you could have the bite do 3d6 or the claws doing 2d6 each depending on if you buffed claws or bite.
I have a different question on this feat. I keep seeing people talk about stacking this feat on a monster (or worse a monk) multiple times. From what I can see, it should not stack with itself on the same natural attack.
I thought that monks could not take this feat, because monks use unarmed attacks, not natural ones. This only applies to creatures with claw, talon bite etc kind of attacks, as far as i see it.
I thought that monks could not take this feat, because monks use unarmed attacks, not natural ones. This only applies to creatures with claw, talon bite etc kind of attacks, as far as i see it.I have a different question on this feat. I keep seeing people talk about stacking this feat on a monster (or worse a monk) multiple times. From what I can see, it should not stack with itself on the same natural attack.
Unarmed attacks are natural attacks, but Jason said they could not use it. I allow it in my games since monks need all the help they can get.