I will suppose that your hirelings "run the shop" while you're adventuring with your buddies, because they wouldn't be productive otherwise, and you'd have to split party resources just to keep them alive.
You'll have to spend time alone with your DM to determine what happens between your visits - perhaps just a dice roll five minutes before the game, in which case you both ought to prepare a table of what could happen.
For example, do you (the character, as business owner) have a rent to pay, and taxes? Is the local guild interested (in a good or bad way) in your shop? Did they hire an arsonist to get rid of it? Is there an important market (local or in another town) soon? Were there disagreements with important clients? Did theft occur (from clients, passerbys, shop employees)? Are there other similar shops in the same area? Did concurrents hire your workers?
|
I agree with Rez that D&D (and by extention Pathfinder) is not built for economics. It tries to fake it, but it really is just a paultry work on it.
If you can get your hands on a 3.5 PH 2 from WOTC I belive they have rules on running a side business. t's not perect, but it might handle what you need.
I'd be interested if someone could come up with a system for dealing with wealth that didn't flounder the way the game works. It would be interesting to see a character that kept the standard amount of equipment so he didn't outstrip the adventure and the rest of his adventuring party, but could have the advantages of say...being a landowner, a guildman, ect...
I could imagine the benefits of wealth could be things like bonuses to chr based skill checks. Being well dressed might give bonuses to dipomacy checks in many situations, wealth might give you access to libraries for research.
Perhaps someone could combine a bit of mixture of D20M to the the current rules of PRPG. the D20M rules would only apply to non-adventuring gear. To up your D20M wealth you have to spend some of your regular wealth or perhaps a feat.
Now I do realize that this can be done, has been done, is being done in many games right now, but a guide to help others would be an interesting read.
I may have to look into this.
|
Typically earnings for such endeavers are represented with the Profession skill and you would make rolls to earn money to represent the investment in time and energy into running a business.
For running a large business with multiple interests I wouldn't rely entirely on hirelings as these can be untrustworthy. I would consider investing in the Leadership feat so that you can fill your top positions with followers and run by a skilled cohort.
The economic influence gained from such pursuits would apply a circumstance bonus to social checks within the areas of influence (a city or region) of the business. For opposing groups and factions to those areas, this could be applied as a penalty.
Clear it with the DM first, he may or may not be interested in figuring out how they would like to best represent this pursuit and/or may not be interested in the story events that could evolve from it. Any pursuit of story takes two to tango. If the DM isn't willing, don't push it.
What do other people think? What advice would other GM's give? What would other GM's require from their players?
You have multiple ways of going about this, and it will depend on how much detail you want to go into. (I happen to be a business major - and professional accountant - so I get a little wankery with this stuff. But my players like it.)
If you don't want to rely on the basic rules for the Profession skill (just make your weekly roll, get your gp, and be done with it), then you'll have to start going into more detail and start building assumptions.
As mentioned earlier, there are somewhat acceptable rules for running a business in the 3.5 DMG2. If you don't want to go into too much detail or fiddly bits, that is (by far) the best resource.
The other option is to build the rules from the ground up, probably using skill checks. Our group has a set of rules that basically breaks down to (at a very high level):
1) Determine initial capital investment. Buildings, supplies, etc. We use the Stronghold Builders Guide for most of that.
2) Determine monthly expenses. Depending on their skill, NPCs expect to be paid based on their Profession skill and rolling a "10". You can make up taxes, maintenance, and other expenses.
3) Determine maximum demand and average revenue per customer. What's the maximum number of people can you serve in x period of time, and what is the average price of your product (i.e. what is their average spend)?
4) Make some form of Profession check (we use Profession (merchant) for detailed businesses) to determine actual demand. Include modifiers based on things like: time spent working on business (instead of adventuring), location, competition, general economic conditions, etc. A DC 25, for example, could be "50% of maximum demand achieved during a month". Or whatever you want to fiddle with.
5) PROFIT!
Whew. So, uh... yeah. With all that said, unless you're a business major and partially crazy, the 3.5 DMG2 rules are your best option.
What Arnwyn said. He is instantly my fantasy book keeper for all my rich characters :).
The rules for profession assume you are in a working business. They represent a 'fun' rule for players where businesses almost never lose but don't make too much money or become so onerous that they displace adventuring. They are rules designed for success and really don't represent any interests other than the characters. With access to those sorts of virtual guarantees no NPC would simply accept a wage. This is not how any sort of working business gets to operate.
WOTC DMG2
If anyone has better rules (homebrew or any source) I'd love to hear them.
Sigurd
So I am playing in a campaign where I want to turn my character into a business mogul. I want to own a bunch of businesses and make a decent amount of money.
As a caveat, I am not looking to break the game by getting more cash to buy magical items, but I want to use the extra money to live in a higher lifestyle and to buy more businesses.
Well, Profession: Investor is probably a good start - because you're hiring other people to run the business, you're basically an owner/investor.
As other people have noted, D&D is bad at economics. Since running businesses is NOT what the game is supposed to be about, I'd suggest the following:
Make it a feat. You want to own/operate a business beyond the Profession/Craft rules for moneymaking, pony up a feat to encompass all the intangibles rather than trying to make a complicated set of rules to govern the whys and wherefores. Something like this:
Businessman (General)
You own/operate a business with many employees to earn a profit.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: Invest an amount of money in your business. This money represents the assets of the business. You may manage assets equal to 1000gp x Ranks in appropriate Profession skill. Each year, your business generates a percentage of profits equal to your Profession skill roll (you may take 10). Circumstances may alter your skill roll or devalue your assets in the course of the game.
So a character with Profession: Merchant 8 ranks, 14 WIS and Skill Focus could manage a business worth 8000gp. If he takes 10, he gets a 23% profit margin for the year (8000gp x .23 = 1840gp). This is a high-level non-adventurer, btw, and definitely a wealthy merchant.
You could roll dice, and I'd allow a natural 20 to double profits, while a natural 1 wipes out the business. C'est la vie.
You might allow the Leadership feat to alter this value (YMMV), though I think having Leadership would just help you steer clear of many of the pitfalls of running a business (graft, fraud, theft, etc).
If you want a feat tax on this, you could have him invest in a Skill Focus type feat. Then you say that the benefit he derives from the feat is really the benefit he got from managing those businesses. So if he's managing them to improve his Diplomacy skill, have him take Skill Focus (diplomacy) and don't worry about circumstance modifiers.
(this isn't how I would adjudicate the situation, but if you wanted to charge him a feat, this seems more natural to me than inventing a new feat)
If you want a feat tax on this, you could have him invest in a Skill Focus type feat. Then you say that the benefit he derives from the feat is really the benefit he got from managing those businesses. So if he's managing them to improve his Diplomacy skill, have him take Skill Focus (diplomacy) and don't worry about circumstance modifiers.
(this isn't how I would adjudicate the situation, but if you wanted to charge him a feat, this seems more natural to me than inventing a new feat)
Well, the feat 'tax' is there so you don't have to go through the actual time and trouble of setting up a business. This is something adventurers do when they retire. Otherwise, take Leadership and have the cohort do it - running a business is a full time occupation, and without loyal minions you'd lose your shirt in no time.
The reason I'd use a 'new' feat is so that people below 7th level could take it (rather than Leadership). It's basically a Leadership-lite; you're getting honest, if not 'loyal' employees who do the bulk-work of the business. You just provide the capital and steer the course from time to time, and reap the rewards. Keeps it simple and a ONE feat 'tax' to earn lots more money (in the example I give, the merchant is making 3x what a normal Profession roll would make over the course of a year, though it should've been 26% not 23% - I forgot class skill bonus). Though it's not perfect b/c it breaks down a the low end (16% on 1000gp at 1st level = 160gp for the year, where straight Profession rolls would make 416gp for the year). Though there should be nothing to stop you from doing BOTH; manage the investment and/or make your own weekly Profession checks.
Probably the BEST way to have a PC run a business is to make running the business THE adventure. Buy a merchant ship/caravan and go from there.
An old issue of Dragon magazine had some rules for PCs owning businesses. Since that was one of the things I always wanted to do as a player, I started running some numbers. Here's what I worked out:
The amount of money that a PC invests gets paid back over the course of 20-25 years. That's without interest. So, if Bob the Barbarian drops 1000gp on a tavern, and "takes 10" on the business, he will end up with an income of . . . 10000/25 = 400gp per year, or about 33gp per month. Basically, (according to the DMG p 130 upkeep table) that puts him at just under "Middle Class." This makes sense, because the primary job of the PC is to go out and be a hero, not sit around and count the coppers as they flow in.
This would also account for hiring decent employees who don't rob you blind, because if you don't pay the help more than what they can earn running their own business, they're gonna walk.
Now, if a PC wanted to do an "Aid Another" roll, that might beef up the income, but it would require that the character not adventure. Instead of going out and defeating the bandit lord, the character is busy mopping the floors, talking with customers, etc. THIS DOES NOT PAY AS MUCH! I'm not gonna allow the players to have an option of "Buy a feat, get 1000gp per year." The characters are not running the business, so they don't get the rewards that go with owning a business. They get a small amount of money to pad their retirement.
If you want to turn Dungeons & Dragons into Derivatives & Dividends, you won't succeed well, because the rules are not meant to simulate economics.
Now, here's my plan for such a simulation: Take time out and play a boardgame. Seriously, play Acquire to simulate real estate development. Why? Because the rules are geared towards economic activity. If you win, you get a bonus to your yearly take. If the DM wins, you get a penalty.
Failing that, go with RezDave's ideas and incorporate the problems the managers/employees have into the campaign.
But don't try to create economic simulation in D&D. Even the DM's Guide (for 3.5) just says "if PCs spend money freely, the prices for everything go up." THERE ARE NO SET RULES FOR A REASON.
This comes down how much time you are willing to invest in the venture of running the business. This is both out-of-game time between you and your DM deciding how things are going to run, and in-game time with your character actually running the business.
In my current campaign my character is running a small magic shop, I sell the items that i make and the items that our party finds from encounters. I have a merchant that works for me commission based, as well as for the right to use my shop to sell his own scrolls and items. Essentially I give the DM a list of what we put in the shop, and he gives each one a percentile of success of being sold, rolls for each one, and next week or month I know how much I have and split with the shopkeeper. This is about as much as my DM really wants to work with it. I still have to invest in game time to check the books of the shop every time I visit, check to see if anything has to be done to keep it running, etc.
If you want to spend your entire time running a business and determining suppliers, employee wages, taxes, rent, "protection" money from local thieves guild, repair bills, and literally figure every cost out to determine how much you will be making, you character is not going to be adventuring. Playing CEO of Fantasy-Mart stores is going to take all of your time, and your DM's and the play time of the entire group. Once you determine that you aren't going to run absolutely everything you have to determine the generic cost of everything that you do, chances of various things going wrong, and you get a generic estimate of how much profit you make. This should be far less than what you would get from adventuring. You can invest adventuring time to get more money out of your business, roll playing though business encounters, and make more money, but then you aren't adventuring.
|
|
I have to wonder if using a hybrid of d20 modern wealth system and the Pathfinder wealth system might be the best way to handle this sort of work. I was going over this last night and while I haven't worked it all out, here is how I would work it out.
Character adventuring gear is capped as per the wealth guidelines provided the PRPG book. This is to keep the character balanced and prevent the GM from going crazy trying to keep their game balanced.
Anything beyond that is converted to wealth which is monitored much like a leadership score. The difference being that wealth is something that everyone has at level one and would essentially work much like it does in d20 modern.
Players can use wealth to acquire gear so long as they don't overcome the cap.
But player can buy and stock pile anything as long as it’s not on their adventuring person. Players can by gear for their allies and henchmen as long as they don't overcome their cap.
So what can players do with wealth? Well they can purchase land, businesses, services, just about anything you can think of. Some things they buy (like a business) might just give them bonuses to their overall wealth score and profession/crafting skills so they could increase their wealth. Using wealth to buy membership in a guild might also increase a wealth score and a circumstance bonus to Diplomacy checks.
Thinking about this has kept me up all night. I really need to right this all out.
One other thing . . . from the d20srd.org website:
Under Hireling, Trained, this: "This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay."
Therefore you aren't getting a great merchant for 3sp/day. You're getting someone who isn't a complete idiot to run your store. Think, Wal-Mart cashier. They can operate a cash register and (might) be able to make change, but they simply don't have the expertise to operate a business by themselves.
On the other hand, the guy running the local Car Dealership makes considerably more than 3sp/day.
A scribe would cost 3sp/day, because he is "trained" to read and write. But if you want an illuminated manuscript, you aren't gonna get that for 3sp/day.
A quarryman can cut stone for 3sp/day, because he knows how to make basic blocks of stone. The 1sp/day guy gets to carry the stone. And the mason gets considerably more than base wage for doing the final cuts (smoothing the stone) and fitting of that stone to a wall so that the wall doesn't fall over.
An "average" merchant (profession: merchant) can make just under 40gp/month (no bonus from an assistant, unless that person is also a merchant). From that, the merchant gets to pay for the building, whatever wages the assistant needs, inventory, any taxes the local ruler imposes. If you were to take this into real life (yes, that's dangerous, I know), you will find most "profession" classes earning a middle class salary. Looking at the DMG (p130, I think), you find that 40gp/month is "middle class." So an average merchant earns a middle class lifestyle. Just as the average craftsman does. Hire someone for 3sp/day, and you should get a new, incompetent, or otherwise undesireable employee.
Oh, and D&D/Pathfinder is not designed to simulate economic situations. Did that get mentioned already?
Honestly, I think the issue that is at the root of my problem is the prices for hirelings.
If any NPC level 1 character with 1 rank in profession and no stat bonus has a +4 to his profession check then he will (on average) earn 7gp a week. How on earth did Pathfinder (and previous incarnations of DnD) come up with 3sp a day for a skilled hireling (who probably includes a +1 stat bonus and skill focus as a logical feat choice)????
Thye price for a skilled hireling should be 8sp to 1gp a day basic. Maybe a little less if you are offering them a longer contract, job security, or benefits.
Unskilled hirelings should be making half that 4-5sp.
I think that fixes the problem.
As overhead are you including lifestyle costs (pg. 405 of the core)? Its entirely possible that "normal" adventurers with a profession or craft work out of their homes, or travel from town to town living in inns, and working from the street. If you are however owning/operating a separate building as your storefront, its likely that it has its own lifestyle cost (and thus an indicator as to how nice its facilities are). You still are probably making "bank" hand over fist, but that is at least a way in the RAW to track business expenses.
A lot of good advice has been given already, so I'll focus on additional supplemental info.
The DMG 2 section, is ok, but bare bones. As others have stated, you'll need to expand the rules or pillage from other sources.
Although I agree that PF isn't focused on running a business, it can be useful for introducing subplots & other story ideas that lead to adventure in much the same way governing can (see Kingmaker).
Additional RPG materials I've found useful for making sense (or at least applying some logic beyond accounting for magic item costs) of D&D/PF economics:
A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe - supply/demand expansion & manorial/barony/kingdom economics.
Silk Road - caravans, trade routes, etc.
Fantasycraft - holdings, including businesses that generate income and can be a source of PC-fleecing, er, investment. :)
Now while Fantasycraft holdings are driven by game mechanics whereby reputation awards are convered to holdings/prizes, the mechanics for what a business could provide and additional income it could generate are there. You'd have to decide if obtaining the value of the holding is achieved strictly through gp expenditure or through some in-game mechanic (i.e. reputation rules, story awards, leveling, etc.)
Also, the ownership of land and businesses in ancient and medieval times was not nearly as capitalistic as it is today. One of the main controls on who owned businesses were various guilds, which doled out a limited number of charters/licenses. They also supported price-fixing and other practices (i.e. potential story conflicts). You certainly don't have to go that route in a fantasy RPG but it's low-hanging fruit if you wish to do so.
Comparing the amount of money an individual could make with his practicing his profession or craft independently to what he could get hired to do long term isn't a relevant economy. After all if you have a job you are obviously making less money than you are making your employer, otherwise they would be out of business. While it is true that D&D and by extension PF is based more on medieval economics which aren't based on big businesses and mass production, businesses with large numbers of employees weren't unheard of. Specifically for military production and international trade, companies often had substantial numbers of employees. Of course you would still have to pay these people enough to provide them consistent income, and that would require large contracts not running a medieval-mart that sold all the household appliances that a NPC could want. After all your average peasant is quite poor, and trained greatly into self sufficiency, able to make and maintain most household necessities.
And there are other direct and indirect costs of running a business.
The approach I've used most often, and one that has been made easier in Pathfinder, is making a player interested in a non-party capital venture to invest some of their xp in maintaining it.
With the different xp tracks I put a recent antiquities dealer character (a way for them to sell their loot) on the slow xp track. We figured he was spending a lot of time outside adventuring not becoming a better paragon of his class and as such he just advanced more slowly. To counter this sacrifice he was able to aquire quite a nice nest egg of dough, and he was the conduit through which the group's characters achieved expensive spell components, crafting materials, world travel, etc.
It takes some of the excitement out of being Donald Trump, but it also allowed us to keep from constantly derailing the group's efforts or running into the innevitable problems of estimating market conditions in a world with transmuters, alchemists and plane walking wish granting genies/devils/etc. And I didn't have to deal with a character that was, via wealth, exponentially more powerful than the others.
The merchant prince character was thrilled to the gills, and the others enjoyed having a wealthy friend between adventures. It also gave him an out if he decided he was tired of lagging in stats and power he could let the business slide to ruin and resume a faster leveling pace.
But that was my group, so mileage may vary.