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When you cast Grease on an item
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
To date we've been playing that grease on an item means the item is greased for the duration and the save is to avoid dropping it based on the "A saving throw must be made each round...". However on reading it again it seems like the initial reflex save can dodge the effect entirely.
When you GM does the initial save avoid the effect entirely or do you have saves each round?
I take that to mean you save every round. "Pick up or use."
The "bearer" makes a saving throw. If he fails, he drops it, and it's greased. Picking it up "or using it" requres another save. I take that to mean every round.
It could have been more clearly written. :-)
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The "bearer" makes a saving throw. If he fails, he drops it, and it's greased. Picking it up "or using it" requres another save. I take that to mean every round.
It could have been more clearly written. :-)
If he fails the save then it's pretty clear that it's greased and the rest follows. I'm more concerned with if he makes that first save.
I'd say he has to save every round, just as he has to every time he moves in or out of a greased area. The item's still greased, so grasping or using it requires a reflex save each round.
REF negates.. if the object is attended then it gets a save and if it passes it is not greased.-James
Not really a Ref negates spell but,
From d20pfsrd - Grease:
Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect.
I can't help but think that 'avoiding the effect' = object wielded or employed by a creature is NOT always affected by this spell on a made save. Not affected screams not greased to me. No more saves need be made after the first for attended items. Plenty more saves to be made for failing the first.
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REF negates.. if the object is attended then it gets a save and if it passes it is not greased.-James
Not really a Ref negates spell but,
From d20pfsrd - Grease:
Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect.I can't help but think that 'avoiding the effect' = object wielded or employed by a creature is NOT always affected by this spell on a made save. Not affected screams not greased to me. No more saves need be made after the first for attended items. Plenty more saves to be made for failing the first.
I see what you mean, but the spell description refers to two different "things" avoiding the effects. The part of the sentence before the comma refers to the object being affected. The part of the sentence after the comma refers to the bearer being affected, not the object. The phrase 'avoid the effect' refers to the bearer, not the object.
I think the object is still Greased. It is just a matter of determining if the bearer is dexterous enough to still wield it.
REF negates.. if the object is attended then it gets a save and if it passes it is not greased.-James
Not really a Ref negates spell but,
From d20pfsrd - Grease:
Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect.I can't help but think that 'avoiding the effect' = object wielded or employed by a creature is NOT always affected by this spell on a made save. Not affected screams not greased to me. No more saves need be made after the first for attended items. Plenty more saves to be made for failing the first.
I see what you mean, but the spell description refers to two different "things" avoiding the effects. The part of the sentence before the comma refers to the object being affected. The part of the sentence after the comma refers to the bearer being affected, not the object. The phrase 'avoid the effect' refers to the bearer, not the object.
I think the object is still Greased. It is just a matter of determining if the bearer is dexterous enough to still wield it.
By that translation then all objects are always affected by this spell, and 'objects not in use' is superfluous language at best. Why do the authors draw that distinction if there is no distinction to be drawn?
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By that translation then all objects are always affected by this spell, and 'objects not in use' is superfluous language at best. Why do the authors draw that distinction if there is no distinction to be drawn?
REF negates.. if the object is attended then it gets a save and if it passes it is not greased.-James
Not really a Ref negates spell but,
From d20pfsrd - Grease:
Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect.I can't help but think that 'avoiding the effect' = object wielded or employed by a creature is NOT always affected by this spell on a made save. Not affected screams not greased to me. No more saves need be made after the first for attended items. Plenty more saves to be made for failing the first.
I see what you mean, but the spell description refers to two different "things" avoiding the effects. The part of the sentence before the comma refers to the object being affected. The part of the sentence after the comma refers to the bearer being affected, not the object. The phrase 'avoid the effect' refers to the bearer, not the object.
I think the object is still Greased. It is just a matter of determining if the bearer is dexterous enough to still wield it.
So if the object is being wielded, then the saving throw is really how dexterous the wielder is at moving the object away from the blob of Grease coming at it, right? Okay, I see what you mean. An unattended object (like the ground under someone's feet) automatically fails because it just sits there. The ground is Greased at that point. Someone wielding a sword, however, can jerk it back at the last second to avoid the Grease coming at it.
Once the Grease hits the sword though, then the wielder has to make a save every round to avoid dropping it. Is that an how you see it?
So if the object is being wielded, then the saving throw is really how dexterous the wielder is at moving the object away from the blob of Grease coming at it, right? Okay, I see what you mean. An unattended object (like the ground under someone's feet) automatically fails because it just sits there. The ground is Greased at that point. Someone wielding a sword, however, can jerk it back at the last second to avoid the Grease coming at it.Once the Grease hits the sword though, then the wielder has to make a save every round to avoid dropping it....
That's my interpretation. If the targeted object/critter fails that first save for the attended object, then that thing's a b+$+! to hold onto for the duration of the spell. Otherwise it's a whiff and you can go on with your life. Seems appropriate enough for a 1st level spell.
I don't (visually) see the spell as a blob coming at you. I see it as a conjuring effect focused on the sword/staff/wand/whatever that you snatch out of the way before the magic can attach to the object.
Sorry for the delay in responding, sleepy time and all that.
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So if the object is being wielded, then the saving throw is really how dexterous the wielder is at moving the object away from the blob of Grease coming at it, right? Okay, I see what you mean. An unattended object (like the ground under someone's feet) automatically fails because it just sits there. The ground is Greased at that point. Someone wielding a sword, however, can jerk it back at the last second to avoid the Grease coming at it.Once the Grease hits the sword though, then the wielder has to make a save every round to avoid dropping it....
That's my interpretation. If the targeted object/critter fails that first save for the attended object, then that thing's a b@@#& to hold onto for the duration of the spell. Otherwise it's a whiff and you can go on with your life. Seems appropriate enough for a 1st level spell.
I don't (visually) see the spell as a blob coming at you. I see it as a conjuring effect focused on the sword/staff/wand/whatever that you snatch out of the way before the magic can attach to the object.
Sorry for the delay in responding, sleepy time and all that.
I don't really see it as a blob either. It was late when I typed that. Something like you would see in a Harry Potter movie perhaps. A fast bolt of energy targeted at the ground, sword, whatever...
I think the language is pretty clear.
If the object is employed or used by a creature, the bearer of the object can make an initial saving throw to negate the effect. If he makes this save, the object is not greased.
If he fails the initial save, the object is greased and the bearer immediately drops it. Any attempts to pick up or use the object by anyone requires a reflex save each round for the duration of the spell.
Some things to note:
- Its always the bearer's saving throw, not the objects even if the object is magical or even intelligent.
- If the object is not being employed by the creature, it doesn't get a saving throw. Thus, a weapon in a sheath can be greased with no saving throw required, also a wand tucked in belt or a sheild strapped to one's back.
I think the language is pretty clear.
If the object is employed or used by a creature, the bearer of the object can make an initial saving throw to negate the effect. If he makes this save, the object is not greased.
If he fails the initial save, the object is greased and the bearer immediately drops it. Any attempts to pick up or use the object by anyone requires a reflex save each round for the duration of the spell.
Some things to note:
- Its always the bearer's saving throw, not the objects even if the object is magical or even intelligent.- If the object is not being employed by the creature, it doesn't get a saving throw. Thus, a weapon in a sheath can be greased with no saving throw required, also a wand tucked in belt or a sheild strapped to one's back.
Anything on their person is considered to be attended. The person can turn away to protect a sword in a sheath for example.
A sword lying on the groud would be unattended. Disarm + grease could be a nice combo since it would negate the initial saving throw.
True, but look at the language in the spell. Its pretty clear that the object must be 'employed' or 'in use' by the bearer in order to get a saving throw, so its an exception to the 'attended items get saving throws' rule.
Its also an explicit exception to the 'magic items always get saving throws' rule.
I always saw it as one save, and so have other gamers I have met.
I've seen it played both ways.
I would recommend that the text "avoid the effect" to mean that the item is not covered in grease. The effect is that it creates "a greasy coating on an item". The effect isn't "dropping the weapon".
I see it that the first save avoids entirely, but after a failed save, continue to save each round to deal with the grease that is now coating the item. Unfortunate langauge, but I do believe that was their intent.
I also had the same impulse to check Father Dale's assertion, and went looking to wave the "attended" language around to counter him...and found not "attended" but "used and employed", so he is right on target, and a nice subtle aspect of the spell (grease the sword just before the dude tries to draw it...and because he does not get the save to avoid, it's greased for sure).
I was specifically referring to this section under equipment
Saving ThrowsNonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).
Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
By that, I would think a magical sword lying on the ground would get a saving throw, as would anything that is grasped, touched, or worn. Those are the general rules for item saving throws.
Unfortunately, Grease is not a standard save negates spell, so it muddies up the water a lot.
I think the intent is for grease to adhere to the standard rules on items getting saves and the wielded or employed section is the basis for immediately dropping the item. If you grease a sword in a scabbard, I think it would get a save because it is an attended object, but if the save was failed, it would not immediately be dropped because it is not being wielded or employed. That is just my best guess in trying to adhere to both the letter of the spell, and the rules for objects getting saving throws.
By that, I would think a magical sword lying on the ground would get a saving throw, as would anything that is grasped, touched, or worn. Those are the general rules for item saving throws.
Unfortunately, Grease is not a standard save negates spell, so it muddies up the water a lot.
I think muddied water is certain in this case. When a spell description specifically states an effect that counters the general rule, I take that to mean that it is an intional breaking of the general rule, ostensibly because the general rule does not quite do the specific case justice.
I would therefore read this spell as doing exactly what is says regarding targeting an object in possession, i.e., "wielded or employed" vs. the general "attended" rule. However, in the case of magical objects being harder to affect, maybe you do give it the save it would normally get in the general case, whether attended or unattended, worn or wielded or employed. Note, this would have to be its own save if unattanded, because in that case there is no creature wielding it to give it their save in its place.
Definitely muddy waters.
Yeah, I gave the way I would rule it as a DM, but I figure I got a 50/50 chance of being wrong. It all hinges on whether the specific wording in the spell is meant to override the general rules on item saving throws or not.
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Thanks everyone for your comments. At my table it's going to be save to negate for held items and items that are in scabbards, etc are fair game.
Seems reasonable to me, particularly in light of the fact that grease is already one of the better 1st level spells even without the super disarm capability.
Even at its weakest interpretation, the grease spell is incredibly powerful for a 1st level spell:
I just had a 6th-level monster get defeated by this spell:
Monster has and massive two-handed (magic) weapon (with multi-attacks). It was a real meat-grinder.
PC casts grease on the weapon. Monster's SR doesn't count (I guess monster can avoid fireballs but not a blob of grease????). Monster fails with poor initial REF save (weapon could be magic or even an artifact, but that doesn't help). Now monster has to use a move action and hope to make REF save just to pick up and use greased weapon. Repeat EVERY ROUND for the next SEVERAL MINUTES!
If that monster doesn't have natural weapons - it is almost an automatic win for the PCs for every melee-based encounter (and face it: most melee monsters have crappy REF saves).