In a game recently, my monk character did a flying leap and grappled a flying vrock. A few possibilities about what happens next came out of this.
1. The vrock falls with the grappler to the ground, both take damage.
2. Since grapple prevents actions with arms but says nothing about wings the vrock is free to try to hover or fly. Since the grappler is not rooted to the ground, but instead in this case rooted to the flying vrock the vrock gets to move using flight as it wishes, but is otherwise hindered.
3. DM Fiat. Actually I am not looking for anyone to offer this. We settled it at the table amicably. I'm looking for actual rules as I judge pathfinder society events very often and prefer run things as correctly as possible.
4. Some other possibility I hadn't thought of.
I'm curious to hear the reasoning of anyone who has a strong opinion of how the works. Please include page numbers for game mechanics in your arguments.
Den
I like the idea that the Vrock flies really high, then planeshifts back home.
This gives the grappler a choice.
Which would you prefer?
The game implodes.
There aren't any rules to handle what happens under these circumstances.
True.
I still like my suggestion. :D
The game implodes.
There aren't any rules to handle what happens under these circumstances.
How 'bout this.
If the grappler isn't grabbing the wings and hindering flight the first round, what if he attemps to pin the vrock in the second round by making a successful grapple check to pin one or both wings down. That would end the flight.
How much does this character weigh? Would the vrock be able to carry him off or be stuck there furiously flapping its wings?
Isn't there a rule saying you can't fly in a a medium or heavy load?
If you grapple a flying creature, and it is unable to carry your weight and stay aloft, you both fall.
I like the idea that the Vrock flies really high, then planeshifts back home.
This gives the grappler a choice.
An, all expenses paid, trip to the Abyss.
A free trip with Gravity airline. Which would you prefer?
Vrocks do not have plane shift. Please support arguments with actual rules.
The game implodes.
There aren't any rules to handle what happens under these circumstances.
How 'bout this.
If the grappler isn't grabbing the wings and hindering flight the first round, what if he attemps to pin the vrock in the second round by making a successful grapple check to pin one or both wings down. That would end the flight.
How much does this character weigh? Would the vrock be able to carry him off or be stuck there furiously flapping its wings?
Ostego. We handled it in game very much like this. First there was a fly check for the vrock because clearly there was an aerial collision. The second round it was pinned and dropped like a vrock er rock.
Den
I like the idea that the Vrock flies really high, then planeshifts back home.
This gives the grappler a choice.
An, all expenses paid, trip to the Abyss.
A free trip with Gravity airline. Which would you prefer?
Vrocks do not have plane shift. Please support arguments with actual rules.
Ravingdork,
I couldn't find a rule about medium or heavy load. We did check and my monk did not push the vrock past his max load.
Den
I like the idea that the Vrock flies really high, then planeshifts back home.
This gives the grappler a choice.
An, all expenses paid, trip to the Abyss.
A free trip with Gravity airline. Which would you prefer?
Vrocks do not have plane shift. Please support arguments with actual rules.
Alright. Vrocks do have "Greater Teleport" with a 50lbs additional weight restriction.
So, it could still (given it array of resitences) teleport to somewhere where it would be find unpleasent. But, unless the passenger is a halfling, the grappler would be left behind, for the Gravity Express.
As to load, remember that a V'rock has a Strength of 21. (medium = 306 lbs, heavy = 460 lbs.)
I like the idea that the Vrock flies really high, then planeshifts back home.
This gives the grappler a choice.
An, all expenses paid, trip to the Abyss.
A free trip with Gravity airline. Which would you prefer?
Vrocks do not have plane shift. Please support arguments with actual rules.
Alright. Vrocks do have "Greater Teleport" with a 50lbs additional weight restriction.
So, it could still (given it array of resitences) teleport to somewhere where it would be find unpleasent. But, unless the passenger is a halfling, the grappler would be left behind, for the Gravity Express.
As to load, remember that a V'rock has a Strength of 21
Since the vrocks greater teleport also limits it to objects only you are still completely missing on the teleport somewhere nasty argument. You are doing better. At least you are only misreading things rather than making things up out of thin air. You will note I did specifically ask for no DM fiat answers at the beginning of the thread.
Now as for flying up first, At best it is going to get up 50 feet higher on a double move or 25 feet if it tries to move once and then cast. Actually the character in question would load it to medium so it would be less than that. The greater teleport will likely fail to go off since it is being cast from within a grapple and is a spell like ability. The DC (10 +7 + grapplers CMB) for trying to do this against the monk character in question would have required a natural 20 to work for the vrock.
Den
Now as for flying up first, At best it is going to get up 50 feet higher on a double move or 25 feet if it tries to move once and then cast. Actually the character in question would load it to medium so it would be less than that. The greater teleport will likely fail to go off since it is being cast from within a grapple and is a spell like ability. The DC (10 +7 + grapplers CMB) for trying to do this against the monk character in question would have required a natural 20 to work for the vrock.
Well, if mememory serves, the V'rock has a "Caster Level" of 9 for it/s spell like abilites (I don't have my book handy, so check me on this.)
And, I belive that monsters cast as sorcerers unless stated otherwise, and the V'rock's charisma is 16. So its concentration check starts at a +12. Even so, given that the CMB of the opponent is still unknown, this is still likely a difficult roll for the demon. So making its own counter-grapple checks would almost certainly be a better move for the creature.
Now, you also realize that the V'rock could also hold off on the teleport until it had double moved quite a bit higher then 25ft.
I guess I would go with the house rule that the vrock could still fly at half speed without needing to make a grapple check. I just don't see how the monk could hold a flying vrock motionless without pinning him.
I'd also apply the Attacked While Flying/Collision While Flying rules as well, of course.
In a game recently, my monk character did a flying leap and grappled a flying vrock. A few possibilities about what happens next came out of this.
1. The vrock falls with the grappler to the ground, both take damage.
2. Since grapple prevents actions with arms but says nothing about wings the vrock is free to try to hover or fly. Since the grappler is not rooted to the ground, but instead in this case rooted to the flying vrock the vrock gets to move using flight as it wishes, but is otherwise hindered.
3. DM Fiat. Actually I am not looking for anyone to offer this. We settled it at the table amicably. I'm looking for actual rules as I judge pathfinder society events very often and prefer run things as correctly as possible.
4. Some other possibility I hadn't thought of.
A monk character did this in a 3.5 game of mine with a wyvern. The rules in PF aren't all that different as far as the principles go so I'd do what I did with that game and that is mainly result #1.
Grappling in PF imposes the grappled condition which precludes movement. I'd include flying with that unless the character had some means of flight that didn't require vigorous motion (like magical flying or levitation). Maybe the wings aren't entirely restrained, but I don't think it matters. Movement is fouled by the grapple, the exact means is flavorful description. I wouldn't take the lack of reference to wings (as opposed to actions requiring two hands) in the grappled condition on page 567 as being of any significant import. No reference is made to feet either yet the creature still can't move. Let it be the same with wings. And let the characters fall where they may...
Actually, in my 3.5 game, I gave the monk a grapple check to be able to make sure he landed on top of the wyvern, knocking off some of the falling damage. There's no set rule for that, but I figured it made sense.
I couldn't find a rule about medium or heavy load. We did check and my monk did not push the vrock past his max load.
Den
The fly SPELL has a reference to medium or heavy load.
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load).
Perhaps this is what people are thinking of ?
The fly SPELL has a reference to medium or heavy load.The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load).Perhaps this is what people are thinking of ?
In the 3.5 SRD, it said (under Special Abilities - Fly): "A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load."
I would argue that it must make a DC25 check for a collision. If it passes, it cannot move, so to avoid falling he must make a hover check each round, DC 15. I would not allow it to avoid falling damage, as I would consider that movement. With only a +7 to its fly check, it will come down in a couple rounds (12-2 dex from grappling - 3 medium encumberance)
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Firstly, as a Vrock I find this highly offensive... now on to the silly mortal trying to cling to my back. The Collision while Flying doesn't apply as the monk is merely a medium creature and a typical Vrock is large. A combat manuever check would have to be made vs my CMD of 27, barring any AoO's if said monk does grapple me I get the chance to break free, turn the grapple, or do any other thing with one free limb.
Seeing as you can't do anything significant till the second round of a grapple I'd have to make an easy DC 12 fly check to hover. With a +12 Fly check it's almost assured I would however Spore the hell out of you if it was available! If not a stunning screech would make the monk let go (as per stun).
The grapple would continue until the monk pins me, at which time I would fall, though I could make a check to avoid any falling damage. Or I would eat his face. Just sayin'...
As for encumbrance and flying, the fly spell references being slowed while encumbered, the barding rules state a flying mount cannot fly in medium or heavy barding (which the monk is not). So at best my speed would be reduced while flying, but not negated. especially with a STR 21 being able to hoist 153 lbs in my light load. Unless said monk is a half orc or dwarf or atypically fat, I got him all day!
--Figure 4 leg Vrock!!!
Firstly, as a Vrock I find this highly offensive... now on to the silly mortal trying to cling to my back. The Collision while Flying doesn't apply as the monk is merely a medium creature and a typical Vrock is large. A combat manuever check would have to be made vs my CMD of 27, barring any AoO's if said monk does grapple me I get the chance to break free, turn the grapple, or do any other thing with one free limb.
Seeing as you can't do anything significant till the second round of a grapple I'd have to make an easy DC 12 fly check to hover. With a +12 Fly check it's almost assured I would however Spore the hell out of you if it was available! If not a stunning screech would make the monk let go (as per stun).
The grapple would continue until the monk pins me, at which time I would fall, though I could make a check to avoid any falling damage. Or I would eat his face. Just sayin'...
As for encumbrance and flying, the fly spell references being slowed while encumbered, the barding rules state a flying mount cannot fly in medium or heavy barding (which the monk is not). So at best my speed would be reduced while flying, but not negated. especially with a STR 21 being able to hoist 153 lbs in my light load. Unless said monk is a half orc or dwarf or atypically fat, I got him all day!
--Figure 4 leg Vrock!!!
I missed the part in collision about large, but armor check and encumberance penalties affect the fly skill. Your +12 to hit a DC15 hover (not DC12 that you have) are reduced for encumberance, and grapple gives you a dex penalty. You drop down to a +7 fly check, or a 35% chance of failure.
As for the weight... 153 pounds is one light human male. Determined randomly, they need 6 or less on 2d10 to be that light, and carrying no equipment. The elf is the only medium creature whose average is less than that. Now, if the monk were smart, he would have enlarge cast on himself so that he brings you down because of your carrying capacity and no fly checks are needed.
Ignore this post... what i originally said was repetitive.
I think... if the Monk can't bring the Vrock adjacent to him every turn, the hold is breaks. Because you can't grapple something that you can't bring adjacent to you.
Also if you grapple a flying vrock, you use your immediately granted "move them anywhere adjacent to you" ability to place them under you and then begin to cajole the GM into letting you sky surf on its back.