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Ok, I have never felt 100% confident that I am playing this rule correctly in my games because they never seem to give any examples of what is allowed and not allowed with taking 10. Now I understand that if you are in combat taking 10 is not allowed under normal circumstances but its the distracted bit that starts to throw me for a loop.
What constitutes a distraction? Obviously if you are crafting something and an earthquake happens you have to test no 10 allowed but what about other skills? I’m especially interested in stealth, bluff, diplomacy and sense motive.
Can I take 10 on a stealth check as I attempt to sneak past a guard or up to a person or is the act distracting? I’ve always played this one yes personally but never been fully sure
Is taking 10 allowed in a social interaction? Can I take 10 on my social skills or is being involved in a conversation considered a distraction? This has always been a sticking point for me so please if you can guide help me I would be grateful.
Also things like making ride checks non-combat related, disarming a trap knowing that it could blow up in your face etc.?
Basically put if it is a contested roll you can't take 10 in it.
Otherwise so long as the situation is one where you have time to do what you are trying to do you can take 10.
A good rule of thumb: If you can try again you can generally take 10 on the task so long as it isn't an opposed check.
Taking 10 is a safety measure. A high roll won't help much so you decide to go for an average. They aren't stressed and can double check.
You can take 10 on stealth, disable device, perception pretty much every skill. The only skills I don't allow it on is UMD.
Just to make things easy for me and my players I assume they take 10 on perception checks just walking around the "dungeon". If they wish to actively use perception they can either roll or spend a couple of minutes on it and take 20.
Same with social interaction. I default to 10 for bluff and sense motive and only bother rolling dice if people state that they want to.
Ok, I have never felt 100% confident that I am playing this rule correctly in my games because they never seem to give any examples of what is allowed and not allowed with taking 10. Now I understand that if you are in combat taking 10 is not allowed under normal circumstances but its the distracted bit that starts to throw me for a loop.
What constitutes a distraction? Obviously if you are crafting something and an earthquake happens you have to test no 10 allowed but what about other skills? I’m especially interested in stealth, bluff, diplomacy and sense motive.
Can I take 10 on a stealth check as I attempt to sneak past a guard or up to a person or is the act distracting? I’ve always played this one yes personally but never been fully sure
Is taking 10 allowed in a social interaction? Can I take 10 on my social skills or is being involved in a conversation considered a distraction? This has always been a sticking point for me so please if you can guide help me I would be grateful.
Also things like making ride checks non-combat related, disarming a trap knowing that it could blow up in your face etc.?
If you couldn't take 10 in the examples you give, then you really couldn't take 10 on anything. Remember that you are giving up the chance roll good as well as bad. It does not say in the rules that you cannot take 10 on opposed checks.
Over the years, I have found that I "forget" to take 10 all the freakin time. Subconsciously I liken it to take 20. I think it is because of the abilities and feats that "let you take 10 when you otherwise wouldn't be able to". They establish a "limited" use in our heads. But you really can take 10 on A LOT of things. If you look at other d20 games, notably d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga Edition, where they spell it out for all skills, you will see how broad it is.
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I'm pretty darn liberal with Take 10. I'll allow it in nearly any circumstance short of combat. I know there are times I should not allow it, but honestly the game is about having fun and restricting it often just isn't worth the effort to say no.
I do assume the PCs are taking 10 on perception skills and such when adventuring, but not when in town usually (unless they are adventuring in town).
Sometimes running the game "by the rules" is not fun and you just have to bend the rules.
Basically put if it is a contested roll you can't take 10 in it.
I can't seem to find that particular rule anywhere. Where did you come up with it?
Taking 10 to sneak past a guard is no more a distraction than taking a 10 to jump over a bottomless pit that you know you can jump.
stuff:Ok, I have never felt 100% confident that I am playing this rule correctly in my games because they never seem to give any examples of what is allowed and not allowed with taking 10. Now I understand that if you are in combat taking 10 is not allowed under normal circumstances but its the distracted bit that starts to throw me for a loop.What constitutes a distraction? Obviously if you are crafting something and an earthquake happens you have to test no 10 allowed but what about other skills? I’m especially interested in stealth, bluff, diplomacy and sense motive.
Can I take 10 on a stealth check as I attempt to sneak past a guard or up to a person or is the act distracting? I’ve always played this one yes personally but never been fully sure
Is taking 10 allowed in a social interaction? Can I take 10 on my social skills or is being involved in a conversation considered a distraction? This has always been a sticking point for me so please if you can guide help me I would be grateful.
Also things like making ride checks non-combat related, disarming a trap knowing that it could blow up in your face etc.?
Taking 20 is the one you really have to be strict on -- if you can fail something with consequences, you can't take 20. Trying to open a lock over and over is a good example of something you can take 20 on. As long as you've got time and can fail to do something exhaustively, you can take 20.
Taking 10 is more loose and up to DM interpretation. Outside of combat (where you obviously can't take 10), the key is distraction and timing.
If you're in a hard-earned audience with the king, you don't have much time to make your case -- you can't take 10 on your bluff check. If you have all night to convince someone that you're in the town guard, you can have a long chat with them and take 10 on your bluff check. Let's say you have to convince that person in a tavern that is very noisy. This is a distraction, so you can't take 10. If you were trying to explain to someone you're *not* a town guard when they have their menacing flunkies around them looking pissed, that's a distraction.
The DM has the liberty to decide what is truly a distraction and what isn't. A good DM will be fair and accurately assess what constitutes a distraction. Taking 10 should generally be pretty common -- especially for mundane tasks.
I do assume the PCs are taking 10 on perception skills and such when adventuring, but not when in town usually (unless they are adventuring in town).
It depends on the environment -- some places are particularly threatening or dangerous. I wouldn't allow taking 10 on perception in a troll's cave -- particularly if you don't know a troll lives there or not. While traveling down a safe road or in a quiet country cottage, you can take 10 on perception.
Basically put if it is a contested roll you can't take 10 in it.I can't seem to find that particular rule anywhere. Where did you come up with it?
Taking 10 to sneak past a guard is no more a distraction than taking a 10 to jump over a bottomless pit that you know you can jump.
Sorry for some reason I thought the take 10 had the part about assuming some failure in the time you are taking 10, and took extra time (much like taking 20 does)... since that is not the case I retract the part about not taking it on opposed rolls.
I do assume the PCs are taking 10 on perception skills and such when adventuring, but not when in town usually (unless they are adventuring in town).It depends on the environment -- some places are particularly threatening or dangerous. I wouldn't allow taking 10 on perception in a troll's cave -- particularly if you don't know a troll lives there or not. While traveling down a safe road or in a quiet country cottage, you can take 10 on perception.
If you don't know if it lives there why would it be threatening or dangerous? You can't be afraid of something you don't know is there...
Sorry just an oddity to me.
You can't be afraid of something you don't know is there...
How do you know that it isn't there? The threat that it *could* be there should be enough of a threat to disallow taking 10 on the perception check. . . particularly if the cave is spooky and. . . threatening?
You can't be afraid of something you don't know is there...How do you know that it isn't there?
Well that is the whole point. How can whether you can take 10 or not depend on if you are in danger....when you aren't aware of it? And, why does it matter that the PCs are taking 10 if the road is safe?
If there isn't a battle going on around the PCs, they can take 10 on Perception. Once the Troll is clawing and biting at them, then taking 10 to notice the gold ring on his finger is not allowed....unless you have skill mastery.
You can't be afraid of something you don't know is there...How do you know that it isn't there? The threat that it *could* be there should be enough of a threat to disallow taking 10 on the perception check. . . particularly if the cave is spooky and. . . threatening?
So, because the PCs think the road is safe, they can take 10 on Perception....and because they think it's safe they succeed against the mediocre Stealth check of the Ogre.....?????
You can't be afraid of something you don't know is there...How do you know that it isn't there? The threat that it *could* be there should be enough of a threat to disallow taking 10 on the perception check. . . particularly if the cave is spooky and. . . threatening?
By that logic anything and everything is threatening and spooky. After all you don't *know* that something isn't there... watching... waiting... just aching for you to relax and then...
Pressing your though further -- just the thought that something might jump out at you should prevent you from taking 10 on clearing the lock... after all it's a strange dungeon and it's spooky and threatening... Or stop you from taking 10 on the acrobatics check to cross that ledge... after all the mountains are creepy and spooky and threatening... something could just jump out and attack you.
Guards who are actively doing their job (guarding) should be taking 10 on their Perception checks to spot potential threats. If they are distracted (a beautiful lady is trying to get directions or some such) then they cannot take 10 so long as she remains a distraction.
A rogue trying to balance on the highwire with a hummingbird flying around his head would not be able to take 10 on his Acrobatics check.
A wizard trying to make a magical item whilst a construction crew works on the floor above him cannot take 10 on his Spellcraft check.
A fighter trying to intimidate a prisoner into giving up information will not be able to take 10 on his check while his bard companion is standing behind the prisoner making funny faces at him.
A monk trying to jump a large chasm in the middle of an earthquake as a landslide bears down on him would not be able to take a 10 on his Jump check.
These are all examples of distractions.
Well that is the whole point. How can whether you can take 10 or not depend on if you are in danger....when you aren't aware of it?
The rules say threats can cause you not to be able to take 10. Restated, if something is threatening, it prevents you from taking 10. If you're threatened by the possibility that a monster could be in a cave, then you're not going to be able to take 10.
And, why does it matter that the PCs are taking 10 if the road is safe?
If there's no threat, then you might be able to take 10 (time pressures/distractions could still apply). You can't take 10 if the road is threatening or particularly scary. Remember the road Aragorn took to summon the oathbreakers in the Lord of the Rings? No taking 10 on perception checks on that road q:
By that logic anything and everything is threatening and spooky. After all you don't *know* that something isn't there... watching... waiting... just aching for you to relax and then...
No, it's not always clear when something is threatening. It's up to the DM to decide how threatening something is. A character can't declare, "I'm not threatened by the scariness level of this road, therefore I can take 10". That's up to the DM.
By that logic anything and everything is threatening and spooky. After all you don't *know* that something isn't there... watching... waiting... just aching for you to relax and then...No, it's not always clear when something is threatening. It's up to the DM to decide how threatening something is. A character can't declare, "I'm not threatened by the scariness level of this road, therefore I can take 10". That's up to the DM.
Yeah I guess my overall leeriness of the situation is I've had the DM's that wouldn't EVER allow you to take 10 since you were always "threatened" etc (to solve this problem I looked at him and told him I was taking 1... since I could still succeed on a roll of 1 on the skill check, and 1's aren't auto fail I succeeded... but that's something not here or there).
I've got a real issue with a DM telling me how my character feels unless there is a spell or some such involved... just as when I'm DMing I have a problem with a player telling me how my world should work.
Well that is the whole point. How can whether you can take 10 or not depend on if you are in danger....when you aren't aware of it?The rules say threats can cause you not to be able to take 10. Restated, if something is threatening, it prevents you from taking 10. If you're threatened by the possibility that a monster could be in a cave, then you're not going to be able to take 10.
And, why does it matter that the PCs are taking 10 if the road is safe?If there's no threat, then you might be able to take 10 (time pressures/distractions could still apply). You can't take 10 if the road is threatening or particularly scary. Remember the road Aragorn took to summon the oathbreakers in the Lord of the Rings? No taking 10 on perception checks on that road q:
Yeah.....when it says "unless threatened of distracted" it means threatened, as in within a threatened square. And you cannot be "threatened" by the possibility of something, or as Abraham said, you could never take 10. Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.
Just to make things easy for me and my players I assume they take 10 on perception checks just walking around the "dungeon".
I'm pretty darn liberal with Take 10. I'll allow it in nearly any circumstance short of combat. I know there are times I should not allow it, but honestly the game is about having fun and restricting it often just isn't worth the effort to say no.
I do assume the PCs are taking 10 on perception skills and such when adventuring, but not when in town usually (unless they are adventuring in town).
Sometimes running the game "by the rules" is not fun and you just have to bend the rules.
If there isn't a battle going on around the PCs, they can take 10 on Perception.
Amazing! I didn't think so many people would agree with me on that matter.
Personally, I always take 10 for the party's Perception checks, not only because it's faster and easier, but also because otherwise, using Stealth against the party would be practically impossible. Allow every PC a Perception check, and chances are, SOMEONE will roll high.
(I always felt kind of funny about that reasoning, though, so I'm actually hoping someone will argue with me about that point.)
Anyway, my EXCUSE for always taking 10 for Perception is that the party is, presumably, ALWAYS on the alert, so the PCs have a habit of keeping their eyes peeled.
Just to make things easy for me and my players I assume they take 10 on perception checks just walking around the "dungeon".I'm pretty darn liberal with Take 10. I'll allow it in nearly any circumstance short of combat. I know there are times I should not allow it, but honestly the game is about having fun and restricting it often just isn't worth the effort to say no.
I do assume the PCs are taking 10 on perception skills and such when adventuring, but not when in town usually (unless they are adventuring in town).
Sometimes running the game "by the rules" is not fun and you just have to bend the rules.
If there isn't a battle going on around the PCs, they can take 10 on Perception.Amazing! I didn't think so many people would agree with me on that matter.
Personally, I always take 10 for the party's Perception checks, not only because it's faster and easier, but also because otherwise, using Stealth against the party would be practically impossible. Allow every PC a Perception check, and chances are, SOMEONE will roll high.
(I always felt kind of funny about that reasoning, though, so I'm actually hoping someone will argue with me about that point.)
Anyway, my EXCUSE for always taking 10 for Perception is that the party is, presumably, ALWAYS on the alert, so the PCs have a habit of keeping their eyes peeled.
And as a GM I can work out who spots who first in advance so I can either spring that nasty surprise on them or adjust description to include Soontobedeadmook going about his business.
Guards who are actively doing their job (guarding) should be taking 10 on their Perception checks to spot potential threats. If they are distracted (a beautiful lady is trying to get directions or some such) then they cannot take 10 so long as she remains a distraction.
A rogue trying to balance on the highwire with a hummingbird flying around his head would not be able to take 10 on his Acrobatics check.
A wizard trying to make a magical item whilst a construction crew works on the floor above him cannot take 10 on his Spellcraft check.
A fighter trying to intimidate a prisoner into giving up information will not be able to take 10 on his check while his bard companion is standing behind the prisoner making funny faces at him.
A monk trying to jump a large chasm in the middle of an earthquake as a landslide bears down on him would not be able to take a 10 on his Jump check.
These are all examples of distractions.
This is exactly what I have been looking for, thank you for giving some examples. A appreciate everyone pitching in this has definately helped me out a great deal.
Yeah.....when it says "unless threatened of distracted" it means threatened, as in within a threatened square. And you cannot be "threatened" by the possibility of something, or as Abraham said, you could never take 10. Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.
No, the text says:
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
My use of the word "threatened" isn't the actual game term "threatened" in combat -- you're simply threatened by a threat. "Such as" implies that combat is an example of a threat. Another threat could be a particularly frightening road -- or particularly intimidating behavior by a group of thugs. This is a loosely defined definition of what constitutes a threat -- but that's by design. The DM is the only source for what defines something as either a distraction or a threat. Otherwise, the player is metagaming. ("Being scared is going to prevent me from taking 10, therefore I choose not to be scared.")
The text also mentions:
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
While the term "immediate danger" isn't defined, it's assumed that the character who makes the check knows that they can be in danger at the present time. Is going into the cave an immediate danger? Not necessarily. If you had some evidence to suggest the troll is in his cave, then yes, I'd say that's immediate danger. If you're not sure or not if the troll is in his cave -- and you know that going into a troll cave with a troll in it is dangerous -- then I'd say that's immediate danger.
Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.
Right. I was mixing up the take 10 and take 20 rules (: Taking 10 does not involve time pressures -- only taking 20 does.
Yeah.....when it says "unless threatened of distracted" it means threatened, as in within a threatened square. And you cannot be "threatened" by the possibility of something, or as Abraham said, you could never take 10. Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.No, the text says:
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.My use of the word "threatened" isn't the actual game term "threatened" in combat -- you're simply threatened by a threat. "Such as" implies that combat is an example of a threat. Another threat could be a particularly frightening road -- or particularly intimidating behavior by a group of thugs. This is a loosely defined definition of what constitutes a threat -- but that's by design. The DM is the only source for what defines something as either a distraction or a threat. Otherwise, the player is metagaming. ("Being scared is going to prevent me from taking 10, therefore I choose not to be scared.")
The text also mentions:
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.While the term "immediate danger" isn't defined, it's assumed that the character who makes the check knows that they can be in danger at the present time. Is going into the cave an immediate danger? Not necessarily. If you had some evidence to suggest the troll is in his cave, then yes, I'd say that's immediate danger. If you're not sure or not if the troll is in his cave -- and you know that going into a troll cave with a troll in it is dangerous -- then I'd say that's immediate danger.
Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.Right. I was mixing up the take 10 and take 20 rules (: Taking 10 does not involve time pressures -- only taking 20 does.
Hey, whatever man. If you and your players like it....there you go.
And as a GM I can work out who spots who first in advance so I can either spring that nasty surprise on them or adjust description to include Soontobedeadmook going about his business.
Yes. By resolving all the Perception checks ahead of time - whether taking 10 or not - the GM can figure out exactly where everyone is when the PCs first become aware, and so the GM can draw the combat map ahead of time, thereby saving valuable gaming time.
Mind you, if I ever run a PBP, then my reasoning in the above paragraph might not apply anymore. Then I'd have to reconsider my whole procedure for Perception checks...
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I'm a new GM, and the rule I have applied so far is that characters can Take 10 if they are not distracted. I have applied this to a wide array of skills. But the following bard class traits make Taking 10 sound like the exception instead of the rule:
Quoting from the Core Rulebook, p. 38:
Lore Master: At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in.
There are several traits similar to this in the APG. But I had always assumed a character could Take 10 on
ARCHIVIST (p. 81)
Magic Lore: At 2nd level, an archivist gains a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items or decipher scrolls and may take 10 on such checks...STREET PERFORMER (APG p. 85)
Quick Change: At 5th level, a street performer... can take 10 on Bluff or Disguise checks...
So, if the bard can acquire these abilities, does that mean no one else can take 10 on these skills?
Thanks in advance.
Yeah.....when it says "unless threatened of distracted" it means threatened, as in within a threatened square. And you cannot be "threatened" by the possibility of something, or as Abraham said, you could never take 10. Oh, and there is no time involved in taking 10, it is the same as a normal check.No, the text says:
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.My use of the word "threatened" isn't the actual game term "threatened" in combat -- you're simply threatened by a threat. "Such as" implies that combat is an example of a threat. Another threat could be a particularly frightening road -- or particularly intimidating behavior by a group of thugs. This is a loosely defined definition of what constitutes a threat -- but that's by design. The DM is the only source for what defines something as either a distraction or a threat. Otherwise, the player is metagaming. ("Being scared is going to prevent me from taking 10, therefore I choose not to be scared.")
Threats =/= Threatened. There is a distinct difference between someone making threats against me and me feeling threatened. The former can be clearly adjudicated, the latter cannot. Threat is an objective term. Feeling threatened is subjective.
Further, a threat is something you are clearly aware of. Otherwise as a DM, I could simply say that Xykon wants you dead, thus you, Mr. Greenhilt, feel threatened every hour of every day and can never take a 10. A paranoid person could never take 10 because they always feel threatened. Does a paladin's immunity to fear make the immune to feeling threatened?
Example: I am a level 20 fighter, and a level 1 soon to be dead mook is looming over me, slapping his sword into his palm, and telling me he is going to cut my heart out. He is an obvious hostile threat, even though we are not in combat. Due to the massive level difference, I would not feel threatened. In that situation, I cannot take a 10 because I am under a direct threat, even though I do not feel threatened. I am most likely distracted by trying to decide which sword stroke I want to disembowel him with.
Guards who are actively doing their job (guarding) should be taking 10 on their Perception checks to spot potential threats. If they are distracted (a beautiful lady is trying to get directions or some such) then they cannot take 10 so long as she remains a distraction.
So the Distracted Guards take the distracted penalty and cant take a 10?
When my PCs walk into a room or hallway not inhabited by enemies, they tend to take 20 on Perception, which I take to mean that they're carefully observing every nook and cranny in the room, for the possibilities of traps or hidden treasure.
The way I see it, when you're taking 10, you're trying to get it right the first time, meaning you don't necessarily take any extra time to accomplish a task. On the other hand, with taking 20, you're assuming continual failure.
Which brings me to a question - if a Rogue take 20 to open a lock (say she has a Disable Device bonus of say, 15), but the lock happens to be rigged with a trap that triggers when someone attempts to pick the lock, is the skill check used to disable the trap, or do you assume that by taking 20, the Rogue accidentally triggered the trap, as per previous failures?
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When my PCs walk into a room or hallway not inhabited by enemies, they tend to take 20 on Perception, which I take to mean that they're carefully observing every nook and cranny in the room, for the possibilities of traps or hidden treasure.
The way I see it, when you're taking 10, you're trying to get it right the first time, meaning you don't necessarily take any extra time to accomplish a task. On the other hand, with taking 20, you're assuming continual failure.
Which brings me to a question - if a Rogue take 20 to open a lock (say she has a Disable Device bonus of say, 15), but the lock happens to be rigged with a trap that triggers when someone attempts to pick the lock, is the skill check used to disable the trap, or do you assume that by taking 20, the Rogue accidentally triggered the trap, as per previous failures?
If the rogue did not know about the trap (did not search for it or did and did not find it) then yes, they set off the trap. (at least in my opinion. )
For perception specificall, I tend to use Take 10 as a passive use of the skill. You aren't really using the skill in an active sense.
So guards using perception should be using take 10. If they are alerted for some reason then they switch into active skill use. If you absolutely have to find something then you switch to take 20, which active use x20, meaning you are going to use that skill actively until you are find something or you fail to find something (no auto-win with skill usage).
Combat and other forms of threats is simply too distracting for passive skill usage.
Thus if two groups of NPCs are fighting the PCs can often traipse past them unless someone is using active perception.
Which brings me to a question - if a Rogue take 20 to open a lock (say she has a Disable Device bonus of say, 15), but the lock happens to be rigged with a trap that triggers when someone attempts to pick the lock, is the skill check used to disable the trap, or do you assume that by taking 20, the Rogue accidentally triggered the trap, as per previous failures?
In my mind you can only attempt to disable the trap port of the lock if the character is aware of it, so unless he's made a successful perception check to find the trap trigger then he's not really aware of where it is.
As such I assume that he automatically triggers the trap even though it's tied to the lock mechanism.
However personally I tend to dislike take 20 on open lock (3.x)/disable device (3.P) because I do tend to think there is a consequence to failure. While I could say sure you can use take 20 on most doors but not this one (consequences for failure) it basically removes any suspense because now the PC knows the door it trapped (thus defeating most of the purpose of a trap).
As such I really dislike incorporating take 20 for Disable device even though by Raw it should be allowable.
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Here is the rule precedent I just set in my game on this subject. It is is PBP, so just putting the spoiler tag on the whole post I just sent them. I used Abraham Spalding's basic rule of thumb.
I am clarifying the rules regarding taking 10 and 20, as I interpret them. They are not 100% clear so I am setting a precedent as to how it works for this game. The basic rule is that if it is that skills that do not allow an immediate retry or rolls that are direct opposed checks(like diplomacy) do not allow the taking of 10 or 20. Taking 20 is being limited to observation based skills and has a time factor. You will also note there are three skill checks (Disable Traps, Disguise and Linguistics) that are made only by the GM since they have a chance of giving wrong information or going worse than you think the will.
I am still uncertain about Stealth, whether is should be a secret roll (You think you are being quiet or hidden) or a regular check. I am leaning towards making it like perception, with “taking 10” being your normal noisy self, thus, by default, allowing the taking of 10 even though it is an opposed check. Let me know what all your stealthy folks think of this, as it treads on your territory.
In general, you cannot take 10 or 20 during combat
Skill----------------------Take 10 / Take 20
Acrobatics (Jump):---------Yes/No
Acrobatics (Tumble) :------No/No
Appraise:------------------Yes (1 minute)/Yes(10 minutes)
Bluff:---------------------No/No
Climb:---------------------Yes/No
Craft:----------------------No/No
Diplomacy:-----------------No/No
Disable Device*:------------Yes (1 minute)/Yes(10 minutes) (Locks only,” No/No” for traps)
*Rolls to disable traps and Sabotage are rolled in secret by GM, roll declared by player
--
Disguise:--------------------Special (This roll is made secretly by GM only, roll declared by player)
Escape Artist:---------------Situational
Fly:-------------------------Yes/No
Handle Animal:---------------Yes (except for rearing a wild animal)/No
Heal:------------------------No/No
Intimidate:------------------No/No
Knowledge (any):-------------No/No
Linguistics:-----------------Special (This roll is made secretly by GM only, roll declared by player)
Perception (spot, free action):----No*/No
*Passive Perception: PCs are assumed taking 10’s when traveling as their general attentiveness
--
Perception (Search):------------Yes (1 minute)/Yes (2 minute per 5 ft square)
Perform:-----------------------No/No
Profession:--------------------No/No
Ride:--------------------------Yes/No
Sense Motive:------------------No/No
Sleight of Hand:---------------No/No
Spellcraft:--------------------No/No
Stealth:-----------------------Yes/No
Survival:----------------------No/No
Swim:---------------------------Yes/No
Use Magic Device:---------------No/No
Guards who are actively doing their job (guarding) should be taking 10 on their Perception checks to spot potential threats. If they are distracted (a beautiful lady is trying to get directions or some such) then they cannot take 10 so long as she remains a distraction.So the Distracted Guards take the distracted penalty and cant take a 10?
Since this thread got revived, I'll point out that preventing someone from taking 10 means they have a 50% chance to do better than they otherwise would (and only a 45% chance to do worse). So, on average, preventing a distracted guard from taking 10 makes them slightly more likely to notice something, unless you also apply a distraction penalty... but unless the penalty is a -10, there's still the chance that they'll do better by rolling than they would by taking 10.
It just doesn't make sense to prevent taking 10 on anything unless you're actively in combat. And even then, it's more of a game balance reason to prevent it than anything else.
Here is the rule precedent I just set in my game on this subject. It is is PBP, so just putting the spoiler tag on the whole post I just sent them. I used Abraham Spalding's basic rule of thumb.
** spoiler omitted **...
Why can't you take 10 crafting?
Ok, I have never felt 100% confident that I am playing this rule correctly in my games because they never seem to give any examples of what is allowed and not allowed with taking 10. Now I understand that if you are in combat taking 10 is not allowed under normal circumstances but its the distracted bit that starts to throw me for a loop.
Relax. Deep breaths. This is something that's MEANT to be a DM's call. its hard to go wrong with something that subjective.
I’m especially interested in stealth, bluff, diplomacy and sense motive.
The two conditions that put a kibosh on taking ten are distraction and immediate danger.
Stealth: take 10 to sneak up on the barmaid and goose her as a joke: yes, no real immediate danger.
take 10 to sneak up on the barmaid while paying attention to the bard on stage telling the obvious story hook to the crowd so you know how not to set loose the zombie apocalypse once you enter the dungeon: no, distracted.
take 10 to sneak up on a pack of wolves: no, immediate danger.
Bluff: "Of course these gems are real! Would i sell you something that wasn't Mr Shopkeeper" Yes.
"Of course these gems are real, would i try to bribe you with fake jewels while hanging upside down? I always go for the real ones when I'm in a hurry!" No, distracted
"Of course these gems are real! Would i try to pawn fake gems on an angry dragon?" - No, immediate danger.
Diplomacy
Negotiate a trade settlement: Yes.
Negotiate your release from the goblin tribe while being placed in the boiling cookpot: No, distracted
Negotiate your release from the goblin camp with a knife at your throat: no, immediate danger.
Sense motive: Someone is trying to sell you a lame horse: Yes.
Someone is trying to send you on a route that will take you to his bandit friends: Yes, the danger is not immediate.
Its a busy marketplace and one of the merchants is ripping his customers off blind: no, distracted (by the other 30 merchants doing the same thing)
The "orphan" begging for change is actually a halfling assassin thats been watching you come down the street about to use death attack on you: No, immediate danger.
Can I take 10 on a stealth check as I attempt to sneak past a guard or up to a person or is the act distracting? I’ve always played this one yes personally but never been fully sure
I would say no under the immediate danger clause.
Is taking 10 allowed in a social interaction? Can I take 10 on my social skills or is being involved in a conversation considered a distraction? This has always been a sticking point for me so please if you can guide help me I would be grateful.
Being in a conversation is not distracting to bluff or diplomacy because both are part of a conversation. When you take 10 it could be explained that you talk about small stuff, chit chat, discuss the weather, and don't risk anything that might be controversial.... or all that interesting. When you roll you bring up more interesting stuff.. but the conversation might drift into offensive territory.
Also things like making ride checks non-combat related, disarming a trap knowing that it could blow up in your face etc.?
If the trap blows up, no. If the trap shuts a door yes.
Relax. Deep breaths. This is something that's MEANT to be a DM's call. its hard to go wrong with something that subjective.
Absolutely! Totally agree. . .
If the trap blows up, no. If the trap shuts a door yes.
Uhoh, now we're being threatened by things that we're unaware of -- which doesn't make any sense. You can take 10 on your perception checks to find traps (as long as you could normally take 10).
It's one thing when the source of a threat is arguably a threat or not. For instance, A stormy night *might* be a threat if it's stormy enough. The pack of wolves is obviously a threat if you're aware of them. But if you're unaware of the wolf pack, you can't be threatened by something that you don't know is there. That's more "common sense" than anything q:
Edit: Ooops your example was disable device, not perception. . . yeah, in that case you wouldn't be able to take 10. So yeah, disregard most of my post (:
Example: I am a level 20 fighter, and a level 1 soon to be dead mook is looming over me, slapping his sword into his palm, and telling me he is going to cut my heart out. He is an obvious hostile threat, even though we are not in combat. Due to the massive level difference, I would not feel threatened. In that situation, I cannot take a 10 because I am under a direct threat, even though I do not feel threatened. I am most likely distracted by trying to decide which sword stroke I want to disembowel him with.
And there's the metagaming ):
I've got a real issue with a DM telling me how my character feels unless there is a spell or some such involved... just as when I'm DMing I have a problem with a player telling me how my world should work.
*Replying to ancient threads! Woohoo!*
You have a good point. I think typically a GM and a player would work together to come to some middle ground. Yes, the threats have to be substantial enough to warrant the "threat" clause, so a GM needs to take that into consideration. Basing whether something is "scary" or not needs to be done with minimal gray area by the GM. But ultimately it is the GM's call. If you trust your GM enough, that shouldn't be an issue.
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Why can't you take 10 crafting?Because many DMs don't like take 10 at all. So they just say no, almost always for no real reason. They don't like that it is part of the skill system.
It's fairly simple.. if you're in initiative because it matters (combat, volcano erupting, etc) then you can't take 10, otherwise you can with the sole exception of Use Magic Device.
-James
I appreciate you speaking for me. It is nice to know I am represented when off working. </sarcasm>
I base that exclusion off the fact that uses a monetary system. You have good days crafting and you have bad days crafting. The fact that is isn't specifically called out does not mean it meant to be in the "taking 10" category. Knowledge checks are not listed as exclusions, but the bard ability lore masterthat allows taking 10 presents a fact that it can be assumed excluded but not listed. This fact alone makes the whole part of the system vague and having nothing that can be assumed set in stone by just looking at that section of the rules alone.
Uhoh, now we're being threatened by things that we're unaware of -- which doesn't make any sense.
Two things
1) LOTS of things in the rules don't make any sense. A fighter with great cleave and 8 orcs around him can slice through all 8 orcs, but for some reason cannot slice through a mere 4 orcs if they are placed north south east and west.
Since step up is not limited by your speed for this round, A fighter facing a conga line of kobolds encircling the equator could theoretically go around the world in 6 seconds if they took a 5 foot step back from him one at at time.
2) That the character is not the player. The characters don't take 10 on things like perception. The players take 10. The lack of being able to take 10 is not something that tips off the character in any way shape or form.
It's one thing when the source of a threat is arguably a threat or not. For instance, A stormy night *might* be a threat if it's stormy enough. The pack of wolves is obviously a threat if you're aware of them. But if you're unaware of the wolf pack, you can't be threatened by something that you don't know is there. That's more "common sense" than anything q:
What about the definition of threat precludes it from being something you don't know about?
Why can't you take 10 crafting?Because many DMs don't like take 10 at all. So they just say no, almost always for no real reason. They don't like that it is part of the skill system.
It's fairly simple.. if you're in initiative because it matters (combat, volcano erupting, etc) then you can't take 10, otherwise you can with the sole exception of Use Magic Device.
-James
I appreciate you speaking for me. It is nice to know I am represented when off working. </sarcasm>
I base that exclusion off the fact that uses a monetary system. You have good days crafting and you have bad days crafting. The fact that is isn't specifically called out does not mean it meant to be in the "taking 10" category. Knowledge checks are not listed as exclusions, but the bard ability lore masterthat allows taking 10 presents a fact that it can be assumed excluded but not listed. This fact alone makes the whole part of the system vague and having nothing that can be assumed set in stone by just looking at that section of the rules alone.
Why was under the impression that it was spelled out that (normally) you can't take 10 on knowledges?
Was that true in 3.0/3.5?
Why was under the impression that it was spelled out that (normally) you can't take 10 on knowledges?
Was that true in 3.0/3.5?
If it was true in 3.5, it certainly wasn't spelled out anywhere. I can see no reason why it would be true. In fact, taking 10 on knowledge checks would be a pretty common occurrence for most people in real life.
The take 10 rules really are that simple. If you are in rounds then you can't take 10, otherwise you can.
While I agree that crafting is the penultimate example of when someone should be allow to take ten, the idea that combat is the only place you can't take 10 is simply not what the rules say.
The rules say you cannot take 10 when you are 1) in combat 2) distracted 3) in immediate danger. If distractions and immediate danger were to be interpreted as "only when in combat rounds" they would be completely redundant, unnecessary, and misleading.
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Why was under the impression that it was spelled out that (normally) you can't take 10 on knowledges?
Was that true in 3.0/3.5?If it was true in 3.5, it certainly wasn't spelled out anywhere. I can see no reason why it would be true. In fact, taking 10 on knowledge checks would be a pretty common occurrence for most people in real life.
Considering you can use knowledge untrained up to DC 10, and going by the logic of taking 10 being allowed by all, every single man, woman and child in the entirety of Golarion knows the following:
All minerals, stones, metals
All dangerous construction
All accents and ethnicities
All recent historical events
All local laws rulers and popular locations
All common plants and animals
All current rules and their symbols
All names of existing planes
All common deity symbols and clergy
A basic ability or weakness of every single creature below CR1
The education system in Golarion is FANTASTIC!