I'm building a sword and board TWF paladin for a campaign we're starting this weekend. Rolls for stats are done, I have the following:
17,16,16,15,13,8
I'm playing a human. I'm hoping to have decent defensive abilities as well as a potent offence. I'm thinking of having my starting stats as the following:
Str 19
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 16
(we are going to receive +1 to two stats every 4 levels- also, our DM has ruled that stat bonus items do not count towards feat prerequisites)
(additionally my DM has allowed the force of personality feat, hence dropping Wis)
I'm thinking of adding to Str and Dex at level 4 to allow access to Imp TWF.
Would it be wise to continue adding to Dex to hit 19 for Greater TWF? Otherwise I could leave Dex at 17, and stick a point in Con, and the rest in Cha, or pump them all into Cha.
Feats wise I was thinking of:
1: TWF, Imp Shield Bash.
3: Force of Personality
5:Power Attack
7:Imp TWF
9:Shield Slam
11:Shield Master Or Greater TWF
Any suggestions/improvements appreciated.
Yeah I would replace Force of Personality with Double Slice, come second level your will save will be a +5, thats pretty good and only gonna get better.
How do you see the low wisdom playing out for the character? Is he a sort of "rush in without thinking" sort character. Not saying all Paladins should be fonts of wisdom. Just wondering how it fits in with your idea for the character.
He's going to be egotistical in the extreme, headstrong and arrogant. Unobservant, in that he takes the criticsms thrown at him as compliments, and brave to the point of stupidity.
Regarding the stats, do you think I should bump Dex to 19 or get Con to 16 or boost Cha?
He's going to be egotistical in the extreme, headstrong and arrogant. Unobservant, in that he takes the criticsms thrown at him as compliments, and brave to the point of stupidity.
Sounds like a Knight of Solamnia. ;)
Hmmm... I like the Paladin. A lot. Considering I hated him a game's generation ago, that accounts for a lot.
Featswise, I understand the advice of dropping Force of Personality - you're going to gain Auras for your weak, weak front-fighter will. Oh wait, it's the good progression, so what was I thinking?
Your Will save will be decent-to-great and you're going to become immune to fear/charm/compulsion. So, what are you boosting it for? ;-)
Boosting Con will increase your Fort saves and your hit points - but only marginally. Boosting Cha will give you better smite, better spells, better overall saves, better skill efficiency (or didn't your headstrong, arrogant, egoistical Knigh... Paladin want to become a polit... party spokesperson?), better Lay on Hands/Channel Energy and whatever I forgot to mention. Charisma it is. Definitely.
Speaking of skills and swerving right to the question of favored class bonus: were you going to choose skills or hit points? You've already got 4 SkP/lvl, FavClass bonus not included. Will that be enough for you?
As a finishing note to any damage-eager paladin: always boost Strength and Charisma.
Just my kind of advice.
(p.s.: Con is the one stat my own characters almost never raise. You just can't do enough with it. ;-) )
Hmmm... I like the Paladin. A lot. Considering I hated him a game's generation ago, that accounts for a lot.
Featswise, I understand the advice of dropping Force of Personality - you're going to gain Auras for your weak, weak front-fighter will. Oh wait, it's the good progression, so what was I thinking?
Your Will save will be decent-to-great and you're going to become immune to fear/charm/compulsion. So, what are you boosting it for? ;-)Boosting Con will increase your Fort saves and your hit points - but only marginally. Boosting Cha will give you better smite, better spells, better overall saves, better skill efficiency (or didn't your headstrong, arrogant, egoistical Knigh... Paladin want to become a polit... party spokesperson?), better Lay on Hands/Channel Energy and whatever I forgot to mention. Charisma it is. Definitely.
Speaking of skills and swerving right to the question of favored class bonus: were you going to choose skills or hit points? You've already got 4 SkP/lvl, FavClass bonus not included. Will that be enough for you?
As a finishing note to any damage-eager paladin: always boost Strength and Charisma.
Just my kind of advice.
(p.s.: Con is the one stat my own characters almost never raise. You just can't do enough with it. ;-) )
The main reason I wanted to boost Con is that in the party i'm going to try and be the main damage-soaker, so any extra HP should come in handy. However, I am leaning toward Charisma over Constitution. But what about Dexterity? I haven't done the maths, but getting an extra attack through Greater TWF would be a sizeable DPR increase, and each attack is another opportunity to land another smite hit.
RE force of personality, with my stats it works out at +4 will for a feat, which seems pretty decent, but true, it will be pretty high anyway.
I was thinking of taking the skill point. I'd like to have 2 craft skills (weapons and armour), as well as diplomacy and possibly 2 knowledge skills.
Alright then, you might take Toughness instead of ForOPerso. Personally, I'd not invest too heavily in TWF - your attack bonus with the last few attacks ist not very high and you'll be missing a feat for it. Rather, I'd advance to Imp TWF at most and then do something about my attack bonus with the weapons. Weapon Focus maybe.
Maybe even go the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip feat chain and planning on toppling Tyrants and giving them a good ol' Power Attacked Smite to the Face while lying on the ground. Granted, this is not the nice way. But Smite makes right. Right? ;-)
Damage-Soaking is nice and fine, but remember: using your Lay on Hands ability on yourself is a swift action you still can combine with a full attack and leave the enemy steaming - where the Nine Hells did that hit he just landed on you go?
Nether Saxon - Scoundreling the Paladin since Pathfinder Core Rulebook I. ^^
One Question:
Where can i find the Force of Personality Feat.
It is not in the Core Rules.
And if you want to do the "Main Tank" :D with Sword and Board i would recommend Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Focus, Improved Shield Focus etc.
Many players claim that AC is less important but i disagree AC is not avoiding the first primary attack but avoiding any following attacks. And in this context having many HP will let you take the first attack with ease and for some combat rounds.
One Question:
Where can i find the Force of Personality Feat.
It is not in the Core Rules.And if you want to do the "Main Tank" :D with Sword and Board i would recommend Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Focus, Improved Shield Focus etc.
Many players claim that AC is less important but i disagree AC is not avoiding the first primary attack but avoiding any following attacks. And in this context having many HP will let you take the first attack with ease and for some combat rounds.
Force of Personality lets you add you Cha to will saves instead of Wis, it was in Complete Adventurer I think.
For a Paladin, I don't think the Imp and Greater TWF feats are worth the dex investment. Better use for the feats would be Imp and Greater Bull Rush.
You are already stat dependent in two areas (Str and Cha). Thats already tough. Trying to add a third important stat is too much for anybody. Sure the extra attacks are nice, but they are at -5 and -10 respectively, cost two feats, and cost a butt load of attribute points to get.
I like the Shield Slammin paladin build a lot. But you really only need the one extra attack to make it work well. See, do a full attack, get the shield attack, and then the free bull rush. (Hopefully) you knock the opponent back 10 or more feet. That means they can't respond with a full attack, and would have to close again to attack you.
Greater Bull rush gives a net +4 to the Bull Rush check, AND causes the opponents movement if bull rushed to provoke attacks of opportunity from your allies.
Also, as I understand the Combat Maneuver rules, you would get any bonuses from your shield attack to your CBM check to bull rush, including not only weapon enhancements to the shield, and Shield Master, but also Smite Evil bonuses to hit. This can lead to some great increases in your CBM to bull rush with the shield.
If I were you, I'd do stats like this:
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 16
15 Dex is all you need for TWF. Str and Cha are most important. Con third most. But I wouldn't put any more points into Con. Cha will give you more staying power than Con will. +2 Con gives 1 hp per level. +2 Cha gives an extra lay on hands, which works out to an extra 1.75 per level on average. Plus the extra +2 Cha boosts all your saves, whereas +2 Con just helps with the Fort save. And it increases your spells per day and your Smite Evil awesomeness.
I'd probably get Str to 20 at 4th level then boost Cha from then on out.
Feats I'd try to get would be Power Attack, Imp Shield Bash, TWF, Shield Slam, Imp Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush, and Shield Master. Anything after that is gravy. I wouldn't mess with Double Slice since you would only get the one off hand attack, and it will only add a couple points of damage to it; thats not a real big deal IMO.
I also like Improved Crit with your primary weapon, since that can work with Bless Weapon's auto crit against evil, whereas a keen weapon won't work with it. With a scimitar thats a 15-20 crit range, and the nastiness that can be had with auto confirming the crits combined with Smite evil can be pretty damn sick.
Other feats I like are Toughness, Blind fight, and Improved Initiative, which are good for pretty much any character. (Blind fight gives extra staying power against sneak attackers, since it negates sneak attacks in melee from hidden or invisible attackers, among its other benefits.) Also, Extra Lay on Hands can be very useful. Depending on how your DM runs things, Selective Channeling, Turn Undead and Leadership could be good too.
For a Paladin, I don't think the Imp and Greater TWF feats are worth the dex investment. Better use for the feats would be Imp and Greater Bull Rush.
You are already stat dependent in two areas (Str and Cha). Thats already tough. Trying to add a third important stat is too much for anybody. Sure the extra attacks are nice, but they are at -5 and -10 respectively, cost two feats, and cost a butt load of attribute points to get.
I like the Shield Slammin paladin build a lot. But you really only need the one extra attack to make it work well. See, do a full attack, get the shield attack, and then the free bull rush. (Hopefully) you knock the opponent back 10 or more feet. That means they can't respond with a full attack, and would have to close again to attack you.
Greater Bull rush gives a net +4 to the Bull Rush check, AND causes the opponents movement if bull rushed to provoke attacks of opportunity from your allies.
Also, as I understand the Combat Maneuver rules, you would get any bonuses from your shield attack to your CBM check to bull rush, including not only weapon enhancements to the shield, and Shield Master, but also Smite Evil bonuses to hit. This can lead to some great increases in your CBM to bull rush with the shield.
If I were you, I'd do stats like this:
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 1615 Dex is all you need for TWF. Str and Cha are most important. Con third most. But I wouldn't put any more points into Con. Cha will give you more staying power than Con will. +2 Con gives 1 hp per level. +2 Cha gives an extra lay on hands, which works out to an extra 1.75 per level on average. Plus the extra +2 Cha boosts all your saves, whereas +2 Con just helps with the Fort save. And it increases your spells per day and your Smite Evil awesomeness.
I'd probably get Str to 20 at 4th level then boost Cha from then on out.
Feats I'd try to get would be Power Attack, Imp Shield Bash, TWF, Shield Slam, Imp Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush, and Shield Master....
Good advice, there's a couple of caveats however. Firstly, my DM is giving us +1 to two stats every 4 levels (I assume you will recommend adding to Str and Cha based on the above)
I like the idea of bull rushing, power and image wise, but i'll be in a party of 3 PCs this campaign, and one is a wizard. Greater Bull rush then only gives one ally an AoO. I'm not sure that's worth 2 feats.
Does Extra LoH work out better than toughness?
One Question:
Where can i find the Force of Personality Feat.
It is not in the Core Rules.And if you want to do the "Main Tank" :D with Sword and Board i would recommend Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Focus, Improved Shield Focus etc.
Many players claim that AC is less important but i disagree AC is not avoiding the first primary attack but avoiding any following attacks. And in this context having many HP will let you take the first attack with ease and for some combat rounds.
I don't think I want to go too far with the defensive feats, just some good armour and a shield and a fair amount of hit points, I don't want to sacrifice damage too much (there's no incentive for monsters to attack me otherwise)
Also RE the Dex issue, I was thinking of using a breastplate (eventually mithril) which would mean extra AC.
Honestly I would switch your STR and CHA, take power attack at level 3 rather than force of personality, and at 5 take Divine Might form the complete warrior. Though, it also depends on how your DM interprets how the feat works.
Even if you don't mess with divine might, I'd still focus on CHA over STR. The extra lay on hands can save your life, especially if you plan on soaking up lots of damage. Not to mention the higher dc's to your abilities, increased saves, and bonus spells you'll get.
The pally I currently run is really the only real healer in the party (of 3 people, level 6), as well as the primary meat shield so that's kind of skewed how I view paladins now. Especially since he's still holding up with over 12 points of ability drain spread over various abilities, and using all his spells on endure elements so the party doesn't freeze to death.
Yeah I'd go Str and Cha with the Stat points. Is he doing it like Star Wars Saga does, two points every four levels but they have to go into two different stats?
As for Toughness vs extra lay on hands, it depends on how the DM tends to run things. The more encounters you have each day then the more likely it is you will run out of lay on hands. If you only have one or two encounters each day and then you can rest, its less likely that you will run out of lay on hands. Or if you tend to have really long encounters that take 10 rounds or more, lay on hands will likely be used more.
For a Paladin I think I'd generally prefer extra lay on hands since its just more flexible than toughness. You get two extra lay on hands, which can also be transformed into a single extra Channel Energy to heal the whole party or damage a group of undead.
Number wise, lay on hands will typically be better. 1d6/2 levels versus 1 every level. And Extra lay on hands gives you two extra uses, so that actually works out to an extra 1d6 per level.
Now since theres generally not a lot else for a Paladin to do with his swift actions in combat aside from Lay on Hands, you will probably do it every round after taking a decent hit or two, at least enough damage to justify using it. (No point in using a 5d6 LoH if you are only down 8 points of damage.) So it will get used a lot. The paladin in the group I DM uses it almost every round actually, unless hes trying to conserve uses for later encounters, and they are only at 5th level right now.
Something else to consider though is that if you are able to boost Cha by 1 (or 2?) points every level, you'll have a ton of LoH uses anyways. So the feat might be overkill. Say you get your Paladin to eighth level, and starting with 16 Cha you boost it to 18 by then, and you have a headband of charisma +2 then as well for a total 20 Cha. Thats nine total uses of LoH each day, and you'll just keep getting more as your level and Cha go up. More is always better, but if they aren't being used then it ends up being a wasted feat.
Honestly I would switch your STR and CHA, take power attack at level 3 rather than force of personality, and at 5 take Divine Might form the complete warrior. Though, it also depends on how your DM interprets how the feat works.
Even if you don't mess with divine might, I'd still focus on CHA over STR. The extra lay on hands can save your life, especially if you plan on soaking up lots of damage. Not to mention the higher dc's to your abilities, increased saves, and bonus spells you'll get.
The pally I currently run is really the only real healer in the party (of 3 people, level 6), as well as the primary meat shield so that's kind of skewed how I view paladins now. Especially since he's still holding up with over 12 points of ability drain spread over various abilities, and using all his spells on endure elements so the party doesn't freeze to death.
I'm a big fan of Divine Might from 3.5, but how would it work with Pathfinder, since it requires uses of Turn Undead? Would the Paladin need to take the Turn Undead feat first? Or would it be the same as using a Channel Energy, in which case it uses two Lay on Hands?
I tend to agree with you too on the benefits of Cha over Str for a Paladin. I'd generally want a base Str of around 18, but I think 2 points of Cha goes a lot farther for the Paladin then the extra +1 to hit and damage that 2 points of Str would do. Especially for the sword and board Paladin whose not getting the extra damage from Two handed weapons.
Since the Smite Evil damage bonus is applied to all damage rolls Two-Weapon Rend, it would be a nice investment, not 100% sure of this since Power Attack doesn't apply to it.
Unless there is another damage dealer in the party, I recomend focusing heavy in strength to reduce the dependancy on smite evil,
puting a point to even CON, then investing in DEX to secure the 17 needed for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, finally, putting the other point in CHA from then on.
If there's another damage dealer, then switch the priority between CHA and STR.
Humbly,
Yawar
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And if you want to do the "Main Tank" :D with Sword and Board i would recommend Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Focus, Improved Shield Focus etc.
Many players claim that AC is less important but i disagree AC is not avoiding the first primary attack but avoiding any following attacks. And in this context having many HP will let you take the first attack with ease and for some combat rounds.
There are two problems with your rationalization here, unfortunately. Number one, since there's no way to "gain aggro" in Pathfinder, having a huge AC at the cost of damage output is really a hinderance to your party, since the first thing I'm going to do as a DM once my monster figures out your AC is so high is switch targets to something squishier. Since you sacrificed damage to increase your AC you won't be able to kill fast enough to save your party members.
The other issue is that if you wanted to play a tank intelligently the monsters won't get a full attack against you (thus the attacks with lower modifiers will never be made anyway). That's the glory of getting a free bull rush in the middle of your attack chain!
The other issue is that if you wanted to play a tank intelligently the monsters won't get a full attack against you (thus the attacks with lower modifiers will never be made anyway). That's the glory of getting a free bull rush in the middle of your attack chain!
Exactly!
And thats why I like Greater Bull Rush so much. Its like having a +8 Strength for bullrushing.
The other issue is that if you wanted to play a tank intelligently the monsters won't get a full attack against you (thus the attacks with lower modifiers will never be made anyway). That's the glory of getting a free bull rush in the middle of your attack chain!
Or 2 or possibly 3 bull rush attempts with Imp TWF or grt TWF. Deny up to 3 opponents full round attacks, or 3 chances on a BBEG. So many options!
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The other issue is that if you wanted to play a tank intelligently the monsters won't get a full attack against you (thus the attacks with lower modifiers will never be made anyway). That's the glory of getting a free bull rush in the middle of your attack chain!Or 2 or possibly 3 bull rush attempts with Imp TWF or grt TWF. Deny up to 3 opponents full round attacks, or 3 chances on a BBEG. So many options!
That is a very good thought, though I do agree with the others that on this particular character having a final dex of 19 would be a detriment so I'd go with ITWF at a maximum.
That is a very good thought, though I do agree with the others that on this particular character having a final dex of 19 would be a detriment so I'd go with ITWF at a maximum.
So i'm thinking my level 4 stats will look like this:
Str 20
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 16
From then onwards I will boost Str and Cha.
Featwise:
H: TWF
1: Imp Shield Bash
3: Power Attack
5: Double Slice
7:Imp TWF
9:Shield Slam
11:Two Weapon Rend
13: Shield Master
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H: TWF
1: Imp Shield Bash
3: Power Attack
5: Double Slice
7:Imp TWF
9:Shield Slam
11:Two Weapon Rend
13: Shield Master
The stats look good (the rest should go to strength). The feats are also fine, but when going this route I'm particular to having improved and greater bull rush so that you can shield bash your opponents at the end of your attack chain, thus reducing incoming damage (because the opponents will have to spend a move action getting back to you) and allowing your party members to take AoOs against the target because of movement. I'd give up double slice and two weapon rend for that defensive capability.
My friend is playing the Shield Slam/Bull Rush fighter at the moment and it works GREAT however it is very feat intensive. A good dex is important but remember that enhancement bonuses to stats via items are considered permanent after 24 hours and you can take feats that have that requirement (unless I'm wrong on that).
You need, bare minimum, Imp Bull Rush, Gtr Bull Rush, TWF, Improved Shield Bash and Shield Slam. Unless you're a fighter that's level 11 or 9 as a human Paladin. Combat Reflexes is also powerful, because you can take an AoO with your shield knocking them back, its better than Stand Still usually. Furthermore, with greater bull rush, their movement provokes attacks of opportunity AND if they hit a wall they immediately fall prone, and provoke again getting up next round.
I really don't think that the lost points in Con and Cha are worth the extra shield slam with a -5 penalty. Remember that the Bull Rush on that second attack takes the -5 as well, so the chances of a successful bull rush on the iterative attack is very slim.
I'll grant that the extra attack is wonderful when combined with Smite Evil. But you are going to gimp your overall smite evil ability by boosting dex to 17.
And note that you probably won't get much else out of your dex being that high. Sure it helps with Reflex saves some, but Cha helps with all of them. You'll probably be wearing plate mail, so you won't get the extra AC unless you can get your hands on Mithral full plate (and wouldn't you rather have Adamantine anyways?).
Cha and Con are so much more important to your character than being able to make an extra off hand attack, even with the free bull rush on it.
And if you really want the bull rush to work, you need the bull rush feats. Most melee combatants will have equal or better combinations of Str and Dex than you will, or be bigger, etc. You need the feats to gain the edge. If you would normally have a 50% chance of a successful bull rush, the two feats would turn it into a 70% chance of success. With the extra attack instead, you have a 50% chance on the first attack and only a 25% chance on the second (due to the -5 penalty for iterative attack), if the second attack even hits.
Extra off-hand attacks and extra twf feats such as two weapon rend are the domain of fighters who have the feats available and the freedom to dump ability points into dex. You don't have that luxury without hurting the things you are supposed to be best at.
Not trying to be preachy or anything, you should certainly play whatever character you want. But from a character op viewpoint I think you'll get much more mileage with the freed up feats and the better Cha (more lay on hands, better saving throws, better smite evil attack and defense, more and better spells) and Con than you will out of an extra off hand attack that gets a little extra damage. Honestly, Improved Crit by itself on your main weapon would likely account for more damage overall than the extra off-hand attack, double slice, and two weapon rend combined.