Magic weapon with speed and TWF

[Camper Joe]

let's say you have a fighter with TWF and he has a longsword +1 with speed (+3 bonus), and a shortsword with the same +1 and speed.

Does he get an extra attack for each weapon?

I would argue he does since the speed enhancement gives the weapon another attack, not another attack for his character.

The speed property does say that it doesn't stack with similar effects such as haste. However haste affects the character as apposed to a single weapon, so with two speed weapons stacking shouldn't even be an issue.

Any thoughts on this?

[Abraham spalding]

Is the speed enhancement have an effect? Yes. Is the effect similiar to the effect that the speed enhancement gives? Yes it's exactly the same in fact.

Does the enhancement say it doesn't stack with similiar effects? Yes. So I would go with no more extra attacks.

[Camper Joe]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Is the speed enhancement have an effect? Yes. Is the effect similiar to the effect that the speed enhancement gives? Yes it's exactly the same in fact.

It isn't the same *exact* effect in terms of target. This gives the weapon an effect while haste gives the character the effect.

Abraham spalding wrote:

Does the enhancement say it doesn't stack with similiar effects? Yes. So I would go with no more extra attacks.

Fair enough, no two should stack. However the effect is on the weapon, not the character. If you cast haste on the character of course it wouldn't stack but the other weapon is a completely different entity to the first. It's like an enhancement bonus to shield, and an enhancement bonus to armour. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, but since they are on two different entities their affects are not stacking at all.

[cwslyclgh]

Camper Joe wrote:

However the effect is on the weapon, not the character.

weapons do not make attacks... if the effect was on the weapon it would have no effect, since it is the character that makes the attacks and an extra attack is granted, the effect is on the character.

[Carpjay]

I think this would definitely count as a loophole...the rules literally interpreted say the the weapon with speed allows that weapon to be used one extra time in a full attack, and although haste and speed descriptions point each other out as not stacking, nothing says yes or no on two different weapons having speed. In effect, it's like saying you have two different effects, and no you could not apply them both to the same weapon, but yes you can apply them to separate weapons (i.e., the phrase that speed does not stack with similar effects is avoided because each weapon is only being affected by one speed effect...which is an extra attack with that and only that weapon).

However, consider the case of casting haste on a TWF: he can choose either weapon to attack with the extra time, right? Now if he had one speed weapon and one normal, he could choose either the speed or the non-speed weapon with which to make his extra attack, but because speed explicitly does not stack with haste, he would still not get the second extra attack. He would in effect have to choose to use the speed effect to that particular weapon or the haste effect to either weapon, not both effects.

Without the clearly written bans on each effect regarding the other, there would be room to interpret that your speed weapon already gives you one extra attack with it, so the haste lets you take the extra attack with the non-speed weapon.

I think the spirit of the rule is that the speed weapon only grants one extra attack using that weapon...having a second speed weapon is a like the haste giving you the extra extra attack. BUT this is just my gut feeling, and the rules do seem to allow it if you read them literally. An analysis of how expensive/difficult it is to get extra attacks through feats vs. the items allowing them might yield some light, but more likely we would need some official ruling to clear the topic.

[Camper Joe]

Just a cursory glance at the costs, the speed enhancement is +3, so without anything else that would cost 32,000 (+1 and +3) on top of the weapon cost.

For the TWF example, that would be 64,000 for 2 extra attacks.

Considering also that you do not gain the additional benefit's which Haste bestows I think it might be fair allow this.

But I agree, I would very much appreciate an official ruling.

[Abraham spalding]

Just to put it out there, this is something that was gone over fairly soon after the core book was put out, and I think someone official said something in the that thread, and I believe it was along the grounds of what I posted earlier (simply because if it was something else it wouldn't have jived with how things run normally and I would have noted it more) so a search of the earlier rules forum threads should reveal something official (I think).

[Camper Joe]

Abraham spalding wrote:

a search of the earlier rules forum threads should reveal something official (I think).

I did search prior to posting this and indeed there was a thread here that discusses this same issue, but no official ruling was given. Since that was about haste specifically I thought it better to start a new thread specific to the speed enhancement.

The opinions from that thread were also mixed.