Every Paladin needs an Extra Deep Portable Hole of Sustenance, capture the evil doers, and stick them in the hole, it provides food water and sustenance, then he can open the Portable Hell Hole of Sustenance, and preach to them. The preaching is recorded on a magic mouth and repeated for a week, over and over and over. In addition, within the hole there's a field of non-agression...
Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket... ;)
BTW these holes are provided to the Paladin free of charge by their church at level 1.
[note: this is a joke]
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What if you just reincarnated them instead, you know, to give them another chance to choose the right path?You dropped an ear.Damn! Oh...i remember that guy...he is so screwed when i find enough diamonds to bring him back!
Hmmm...that's not a bad idea...and it's a divine focus (if i remember correctly) so reusable 1000gp item. Only problem is i only gots a week if i do that...i'll have to find a way to get a drood and some air into a bag of holding.
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Take Leadership and get a Druid instead of a Cleric. You know, kind of a Merlin to your Judge Arthur...Hmmm...that's not a bad idea...and it's a divine focus (if i remember correctly) so reusable 1000gp item. Only problem is i only gots a week if i do that...i'll have to find a way to get a drood and some air into a bag of holding.What if you just reincarnated them instead, you know, to give them another chance to choose the right path?You dropped an ear.Damn! Oh...i remember that guy...he is so screwed when i find enough diamonds to bring him back!
I like this idea...i mean don't get me wrong i'm still kinda partial to a string of ears but you take what you can get.
For example, you could just have a generic "Divine Warrior" with "Detect Enemy" and "Smite Foe" for smiting those that intended to harm you (like a spidey sense). If the DM thought you roleplayed the character as "good=paladin" or "evil=blackguard", but mechanically it would be the same. The distinction between paladin vs blackguard would be purely roleplaying in the context of the campaign world.
I think we are on the same page. most of my paladin angst comes from the G axis. If one is A somewhat simple fix is just to have them be lawful. most pallies I've seen tend more to the LN (or even LE) side of things. there seems to be less disagreement about the L/C axis.
that being said, I still prefer removing alignment as a mechanic for any class, and just reserve it for roleplaying.
Yep, definitely on the same page!
great! so how do we do it?
I think it is pretty straightforward to eliminate the alignment restrictions from barbarians and druids. Monks would require only a small tweak of the Ki strike ability - I think it would be fair to make it overcome any alignment-based DR. Sure, it is more powerful, but pretty situational and who is going to complain about a boost to monks?
the clerics and paladins are tougher.
Clerics need to match alignment to deity and there can be restrictions on the spells they cast, etc. I don't see a way around this, but I haven't seen this be a problem in my games. well, maybe once.
the other issue with clerics is the channel energy. the choice of positive or negative could just be open regardless of alignment. not sure if that feels right though.
Paladins are clearly the problem child here. To remove the alignment restrictions and code of conduct would require significant rewrite to class, something like the smite and detect abilities keyed to a favored enemy like rangers might work, although far less powerful. another idea is to just make smite work against anything and remove detect altogether, which seems more like a reasonable trade to me.
Some of the other abilities are also alignment specific would need some adjustment, but I think some nerfing is in order, and eliminating them altogether might be OK.
Or, just abandon the class altogether. this style of character can be played as a modified ranger without too much trouble (maybe grant heavy armor proficiency and reduce skills, change the spell list somewhat or something).
what am I missing here?
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Yep, definitely on the same page!great! so how do we do it?
I think it is pretty straightforward to eliminate the alignment restrictions from barbarians and druids. Monks would require only a small tweak of the Ki strike ability - I think it would be fair to make it overcome any alignment-based DR. Sure, it is more powerful, but pretty situational and who is going to complain about a boost to monks?
the clerics and paladins are tougher.
Clerics need to match alignment to deity and there can be restrictions on the spells they cast, etc. I don't see a way around this, but I haven't seen this be a problem in my games. well, maybe once.
the other issue with clerics is the channel energy. the choice of positive or negative could just be open regardless of alignment. not sure if that feels right though.
Paladins are clearly the problem child here. To remove the alignment restrictions and code of conduct would require significant rewrite to class, something like the smite and detect abilities keyed to a favored enemy like rangers might work, although far less powerful. another idea is to just make smite work against anything and remove detect altogether, which seems more like a reasonable trade to me.
Some of the other abilities are also alignment specific would need some adjustment, but I think some nerfing is in order, and eliminating them altogether might be OK.
Or, just abandon the class altogether. this style of character can be played as a modified ranger without too much trouble (maybe grant heavy armor proficiency and reduce skills, change the spell list somewhat or something).what am I missing here?
Treat pallies like a monk without extra attacks...make their DR overcome by anything that would normally overcome a specific DR. Change good aura to aura against undead or somethin like that. Just a couple thoughts.
Treat pallies like a monk without extra attacks
trying to understand - do you mean replace the paladin's class features with the monk's (minus flurry)?
make their DR overcome by anything that would normally overcome a specific DR.
the DR/evil overcome by any alignment-based attack? not a bad idea, or just make it DR/- versus the favored enemy(if that is the way it is adapted), or half the listed DR/- against all attackers, etc.
Change good aura to aura against undead or somethin like that.
so aura of faith becomes aura against favored enemy? sounds pretty similar to the hunter's bond ability of the ranger. or it could just be versus alignment based DR?
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Treat pallies like a monk without extra attackstrying to understand - do you mean replace the paladin's class features with the monk's (minus flurry)?
you referenced something about a monk's ki pool and the strikes overcoming any alignment based DR. I think with a little work smite evil could be worked this way.
make their DR overcome by anything that would normally overcome a specific DR.the DR/evil overcome by any alignment-based attack? not a bad idea, or just make it DR/- versus the favored enemy(if that is the way it is adapted), or half the listed DR/- against all attackers, etc.
The problem i can see with favored enemies is, given the flavor of the paladin, the only way i personally could see this working is if it worked against those who were not worshipers of the paladins deity and just require paladins to have a deity. OTOH, this could get OP real quick.
Change good aura to aura against undead or somethin like that.so aura of faith becomes aura against favored enemy? sounds pretty similar to the hunter's bond ability of the ranger. or it could just be versus alignment based DR?
See the above, but again, it would get OP real quick.
BLUF: i tend to think that too many of the paladin's abilities are tied to the alignment system. It woudl be difficult, if not impossible, to balance a paladin in an alignment-free game.
BLUF: i tend to think that too many of the paladin's abilities are tied to the alignment system. It woudl be difficult, if not impossible, to balance a paladin in an alignment-free game.
I hear that and tend to agree. the paladin as is really doesn't belong in a system like that, as it takes away the defining feature of the class.
aside from adapting a ranger, there was a "knight" class in the PHBII that didn't have an alignment restriction and was a good tank. It took out the divine aspect of paladins but kept a code of conduct. The big difference is that that code was far more limited in scope and explicit and the consequences for violating it not so dire. it never got a lot of attention, but I liked it much better than the 3.5 paladin in fluff and mechanics. biggest problem was they weren't allowed to flank, which is tough on the party rogue. then again, pallies usually struggle with rogues, so may not be a big change!
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BLUF: i tend to think that too many of the paladin's abilities are tied to the alignment system. It woudl be difficult, if not impossible, to balance a paladin in an alignment-free game.I hear that and tend to agree. the paladin as is really doesn't belong in a system like that, as it takes away the defining feature of the class.
aside from adapting a ranger, there was a "knight" class in the PHBII that didn't have an alignment restriction and was a good tank. It took out the divine aspect of paladins but kept a code of conduct. The big difference is that that code was far more limited in scope and explicit and the consequences for violating it not so dire. it never got a lot of attention, but I liked it much better than the 3.5 paladin in fluff and mechanics. biggest problem was they weren't allowed to flank, which is tough on the party rogue. then again, pallies usually struggle with rogues, so may not be a big change!
Apparently APG is going to have templars for those who can't cut it as a paladin (i think that's how James put it).
From what we know Templars will cover AL's LN,LE,NG,N,NE,CG and CN while the Anti-paladin will be CE leaving Paladins LG
From what we know Templars will cover AL's LN,LE,NG,N,NE,CG and CN while the Anti-paladin will be CE leaving Paladins LGThat was what i gathered. Although i think that the anitpaladin should be LE...CE just doesn't seem to have enough "organization" to be considered any type of paladin tbh.
LE however is not an Anti-paladin. That would be more a dark templar. Sure he is evil but he is not The total opposite of a paladin. I don't think you'll see many orders of Anti-paladins, they are more rare. I don't see em banding together, unlike a LE templar. They are more like the will of a deamon given flesh, scions of death and destruction, harbingers of unholy slaughter. The exist simply to spread, death and evil for as long as they can. They can't be trusted, they can't be bargained with.
I think you could deal with a LE unholy templar of some god...not so with a CE anti-paladin
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From what we know Templars will cover AL's LN,LE,NG,N,NE,CG and CN while the Anti-paladin will be CE leaving Paladins LGThat was what i gathered. Although i think that the anitpaladin should be LE...CE just doesn't seem to have enough "organization" to be considered any type of paladin tbh.LE however is not an Anti-paladin. That would be more a dark templar. Sure he is evil but he is not The total opposite of a paladin. I don't think you'll see many orders of Anti-paladins, they are more rare. I don't see em banding together, unlike a LE templar. They are more like the will of a deamon given flesh, scions of death and destruction, harbingers of unholy slaughter. The exist simply to spread, death and evil for as long as they can. They can't be trusted, they can't be bargained with.
I think you could deal with a LE unholy templar of some god...not so with a CE anti-paladin
I mean when i think of paladin i think of some type of code of conduct...chaos doesn't really lend itself to that. Unless the antipaladin is more of just a concept of everything that the regular paladin isn't
For me anti-paladins have always been honorable yet evil as heck warriors of despair. They exemplify everything that devil kind loves to see in humanity without being a devil or influenced by the Aristocracy of hell. Now Ive heard that "Hell knights fill that role" but I dont agree. Morale obscurity does not make a good counter to the paladin class and I've felt hellknights have that since the first time I read about them, yes they have lots of LE orders but the LN ones counter what it means to be a real anti-paladin. At least IMO.
To further complicate my point of view, Ive heard that blackguards, anti-paladins, Scourges, or whatever theyre going to be called when Advanced players guide comes out is going to be a CE or NE class and also requires them to follow a code. This makes my brain hurt because all I can think here is why would a class that favors chaotic actions (remember free spirit and dislike of rules) follow a code? Neutral on the ethical slate I can wrap my head around, they can follow the code because it gives them supreme power over others, they might not like it but its not against their nature to follow order/traditions/codes/etc. Chaotic with a required code just seems...like the antithesis of roleplaying to me.
Kill as often as you can, spread pain and dispare were ever you go, bring forth unholy and evil work.
is a code. A CG character can have a code and often do, just not one like a LG person would have. A moral code is a code yet chaotic people have them. Lawful codes then to be strict and with lots of items on them...chaotic ones tend to be short and loose...but still a code
Ya could have chaotic knightly orders...they are just not well organized and would tend to act on there own with out telling the higher up just what they were doing...more like a "hey neat we all have the same goal...I'm gonna go this way..see ya later" type of thing
I think Rovagug may be what they are aiming with the anti-paladin.
That sounds more like an alliance then an order. Of course I tend to get the idea of strict guidelines and rules with an order (thus the word order). In my mind an alliance is more "This is what we want to accomplish. You do it your way, and Ill do it my way. If we need help we help each other as long as it doesnt get in the way of our own plan." That fits better for Chaotic themed characters because it doesnt institute rules on how to handle a situation, it just sets down the goal and the idea that the alliance will help people who are trying to accomplish the goal.
An alliance of CE characters can certainly happen (Demigorgon and Dagon are a good example) and I think it would be an awesome idea to have blackguards or other CE warriors playing off one another to get ahead similar to the infighting of demon kind. A code, meaning do this or loose your powers, is to orderly for warriors who are a mix of utter despair and free spirits. At least in my mind.
I mean when i think of paladin i think of some type of code of conduct...chaos doesn't really lend itself to that. Unless the antipaladin is more of just a concept of everything that the regular paladin isn't
I posted this recently in a thread on fictional characters according to alignment, but if you are interested on one example of LG vs CE with N caught in the middle (IMO), "No country for old men" gives a great example of this. the CE villain has a code that he adheres to very strongly, but it is a code of chaos. modern setting but it works. great movie and even better book.