I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
I give you Oprah as a counterpoint.
What do you mean?
You are speaking of individuals. I was noting the trend as an entire group.
I do note, however, that her show has included things such as pole dancing, Bikinis, showgirls, etc.
I give you Oprah as a counterpoint.What do you mean?
I do note, however, that her show has included things such as pole dancing, Bikinis, showgirls, etc.
I Edited my last response. Sowwy. :P
I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
What do you mean by 'social power?' One might argue that actresses or models who parlay their physical attractiveness into fame, influence, and fabulous wealth hold a great deal of 'social power.'
I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
Actually yes - seems we both have spent some time pondering this. That said I think this is some kind of side effect of a deeper issue. Its not quantity of clothes but something more to do with woman's sexuality. One can see this trend both within modern cultures but also, and maybe more tellingly, one can evaluate it across time periods in the same culture. Go back a 100 years and woman's clothing is layers deep and chin to ankle.
There is obviously some kind of an interesting story behind these correlations and my bet is its not one that has gone unnoticed so one might be able to find a good book on the topic if one looked around.
I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
Depends on the culture too.
Muslims think females showing too much skin is whorish. No good Muslim woman would want to. Westerners have made claims that it's their society using the abiyyah and burqah to keep them as chattel, but they don't see it that way. It's all cultural taboos. I don't think it really has much to do with social power, anymore than walking around naked would mean you were at the pinnacle of said power.
That being said, I don't think women would wear less clothing if they didn't feel safer in society doing so. I think it's society allowing more options and a cultural loosening of old mores rather than an increase of power. In heavily-clothed moral codes, skimpy dress=whore=legitimate prey. The old 'she was asking for it' defense.
Also depends on the availability of central heating and latitude.
Depends on the culture too.
LOL, yeah not gonna find many thong bikini-clad women on Old Cape Cod today ...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There was a backstory in an issue of Classic X-men Issue 34 written by Ann Nocenti that deals with a waitress in the Hellfire Club and Emma. It's interesting the writer's take on the outfits they're both wearing and how they use them.
There was a backstory in an issue of Classic X-men Issue 34 written by Ann Nocenti that deals with a waitress in the Hellfire Club and Emma. It's interesting the writer's take on the outfits they're both wearing and how they use them.
SHowing this to the wife now. This will lead to an interesting debate, thanks.
[threadjack]Also, any luck on finding the Kulan Gath issues of X-Men on that site? I can't seem to find them.[/threadjack]
LOL, yeah not gonna find many thong bikini-clad women on Old Cape Cod today ...Also depends on the availability of central heating and latitude.
Depends on the culture too.
Any Polar Bear Club members out there?
Any Polar Bear Club members out there?LOL, yeah not gonna find many thong bikini-clad women on Old Cape Cod today ...Also depends on the availability of central heating and latitude.
Depends on the culture too.
Only around New Years. Or at least that's when they are in the news ...
Only around New Years. Or at least that's when they are in the news ...Any Polar Bear Club members out there?LOL, yeah not gonna find many thong bikini-clad women on Old Cape Cod today ...Also depends on the availability of central heating and latitude.
Depends on the culture too.
Just curious. I know there are a few people here in Brooklyn(Coney Island) who are damn serious about it as a lifestyle.
I'm so glad, our Bundeskanzler isn't proof for this theory...
Well, she was at the top of the list I offered for a counterpoint upthread....
curious. I know there are a few people here in Brooklyn(Coney Island) who are damn serious about it as a lifestyle.
Yeah, I think there is a local organization, but if they are out in bikinis in this weather, well they are welcome to frolic without me hanging about :)
It's friggin cold, but at least it isn't caked with snow. How's the NY area Freehold? You guys got a lot of snow on the ground?
There was a backstory in an issue of Classic X-men Issue 34 written by Ann Nocenti that deals with a waitress in the Hellfire Club and Emma. It's interesting the writer's take on the outfits they're both wearing and how they use them.
I do not like this comic.
How is anyone "cheapened"?
I look at a beautiful woman, and I do not feel cheapened by the experience. I would hope that she does not feel so either.
As villains the leaders of the Hellfire Club would see it this way. But, is it always about "Dominance & Submission"?
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I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
Obviously your refer to islamic states where Women wear a burlap sack to cover their bodies that only the man they are being sold to can look upon them. In Native African states there is a propensity to equate clothing to jewelery. Wealth equals clothing. Same in Native South American populations. What you are looking at is Religion and its affect on Social codes of conduct. The same reason the west forced women to wear skirts instead of jeans as a social norm is why Islamic states force women to cover themselves from head to toe - The Tyranny of Religion.
What you need to do is measure the freedom of Women against the Power of Religion over the individual.
Obviously your refer to islamic states where Women wear a burlap sack to cover their bodies that only the man they are being sold to can look upon them. In Native African states there is a propensity to equate clothing to jewelery. Wealth equals clothing. Same in Native South American populations. What you are looking at is Religion and its affect on Social codes of conduct. The same reason the west forced women to wear skirts instead of jeans as a social norm is why Islamic states force women to cover themselves from head to toe - The Tyranny of Religion.
My primary observation was based on the Islamic world. But own European culture had a similar trend, compare the timeline of feminine fashion and the progress of feminism.
I don't know about a "Tyranny of Religion" though. Religion is only one aspect of a society though (but admittedly a very important one), but economics and climate also play a big role. Both of the counter examples you provided (South America and Central Africa) are Hot & Wet, so clothing as an aspect of wealth/power never achieved the same connection.
What you need to do is measure the freedom of Women against the Power of Religion over the individual.
You do hit on something interresting though. "Women as Property" vs. "Women as People".
When "women are property" their feelings are discounted and their sexuality is actively repressed. Which may connect back to my previous observation about the progress of feminism and female fashion.
In my Women's Studies class last semester my teacher presented this. She said most feminist theory explains it this way:
As women gain more social power, and fight to gain even more, society (specifically the media), seeking to strengthen the established order, then sexualize women more and more as a way of objectifying them, stealing that power away.
Is that what is really going on? I don't know, but I'm personally inclined to agree with the assessment.
In my Women's Studies class last semester my teacher presented this. She said most feminist theory explains it this way:
As women gain more social power, and fight to gain even more, society (specifically the media), seeking to strengthen the established order, then sexualize women more and more as a way of objectifying them, stealing that power away.
Is that what is really going on? I don't know, but I'm personally inclined to agree with the assessment.
There seem to be to opposing threads in modern Feminism.
The "Radical Feminists" thread would seem definitely agree with your professor. Society appears to be trying even harder to objectify women as a kind of backlash againts the growing power of women.
However, the couter argument comes from the "Sex-Positive Feminist view. Women can be seen as taking charge of their own bodies and their own sexuality. The "sex-positive movement" also appears to reject the idea that men, and male sexuality, are the enemy.
So "What is really going on" may not be clear.
So you might want to bouce some of the Sex-Positive ideas off your instuctor.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There was a backstory in an issue of Classic X-men Issue 34 written by Ann Nocenti that deals with a waitress in the Hellfire Club and Emma. It's interesting the writer's take on the outfits they're both wearing and how they use them.I do not like this comic.
How is anyone "cheapened"?
I look at a beautiful woman, and I do not feel cheapened by the experience. I would hope that she does not feel so either.
As villains the leaders of the Hellfire Club would see it this way. But, is it always about "Dominance & Submission"?
I'm sure it's a ymmv moment. I remembered it but was kind of surprised when i reread it that a woman wrote it. *shrug*
I think it comes down to the woman. I mean these are fictional characters of course, but the waitress seemed to feel demeaned and Emma seems to know how to 'work it'. So I think it wasn't the clothing, more how the characters reacted *in* the clothing. Mastermind would have had a different reaction I think if the girl had been more confident and less awkward.
As villains the leaders of the Hellfire Club would see it this way. But, is it always about "Dominance & Submission"?
I'm sure it's a ymmv moment. I remembered it but was kind of surprised when i reread it that a woman wrote it. *shrug*
I think it comes down to the woman. I mean these are fictional characters of course, but the waitress seemed to feel demeaned and Emma seems to know how to 'work it'. So I think it wasn't the clothing, more how the characters reacted *in* the clothing. Mastermind would have had a different reaction I think if the girl had been more confident and less awkward.
Well, Villains, especially in a Comics Code era comic, tend not to be the most "healthy" of individuals. :)
In my Women's Studies class last semester my teacher presented this. She said most feminist theory explains it this way:
As women gain more social power, and fight to gain even more, society (specifically the media), seeking to strengthen the established order, then sexualize women more and more as a way of objectifying them, stealing that power away.
Is that what is really going on? I don't know, but I'm personally inclined to agree with the assessment.
There seem to be to opposing threads in modern Feminism.
The "Radical Feminists" thread would seem definitely agree with your professor. Society appears to be trying even harder to objectify women as a kind of backlash againts the growing power of women.
However, the couter argument comes from the "Sex-Positive Feminist view. Women can be seen as taking charge of their own bodies and their own sexuality. The "sex-positive movement" also appears to reject the idea that men, and male sexuality, are the enemy.
So "What is really going on" may not be clear.
So you might want to bouce some of the Sex-Positive ideas off your instuctor.
I did my time in feminist studies. My 2 cents: both of these dynamics can be observed.
I was looking at the latest SI Swimsuit Issue, and something struck me.
As anyone ever noticed that the less social power women have, the more clothing they wear?
Is the inverse also true: more social power that women have [as a genre] ... the less they wear?
Obviously your refer to islamic states where Women wear a burlap sack to cover their bodies that only the man they are being sold to can look upon them. In Native African states there is a propensity to equate clothing to jewelery. Wealth equals clothing. Same in Native South American populations. What you are looking at is Religion and its affect on Social codes of conduct. The same reason the west forced women to wear skirts instead of jeans as a social norm is why Islamic states force women to cover themselves from head to toe - The Tyranny of Religion.
What you need to do is measure the freedom of Women against the Power of Religion over the individual.
Works fine until you start operating in the absence of Religion. In say, CHina.
I did my time in feminist studies. My 2 cents: both of these dynamics can be observed.
That would make sense.
When dealing with large masses of individuals, many events can happen concurrently.
In my Women's Studies class last semester my teacher presented this. She said most feminist theory explains it this way:
As women gain more social power, and fight to gain even more, society (specifically the media), seeking to strengthen the established order, then sexualize women more and more as a way of objectifying them, stealing that power away.
Is that what is really going on? I don't know, but I'm personally inclined to agree with the assessment.
There seem to be to opposing threads in modern Feminism.
The "Radical Feminists" thread would seem definitely agree with your professor. Society appears to be trying even harder to objectify women as a kind of backlash againts the growing power of women.
However, the couter argument comes from the "Sex-Positive Feminist view. Women can be seen as taking charge of their own bodies and their own sexuality. The "sex-positive movement" also appears to reject the idea that men, and male sexuality, are the enemy.
So "What is really going on" may not be clear.
So you might want to bouce some of the Sex-Positive ideas off your instuctor.
On an individual basis I would have to agree that there is the whole "taking back sexuality" thing, but what I was talking about was specifically media presentation, which is almost never under the control of a woman. Magazine ads, commercials, etc. tend to objectify women from what I can see, especially when they have her on the ground beneath a man, or pinned against a wall, as many perfume and fashion ads tend to.
It's like the whole stripper dilemma. It may be personally empowering for a stripper to use her sexuality to control the men in the strip club and get their money from them, and that empowerment is a great thing. But the societal effect is that it continues and strengthens the concept that a woman is something to be looked at and used for pleasure, not someONE to talk to, get to know, appreciate, and respect. At least that's the way I see it.
Oh, and as for bouncing the sex-positive ideas off my instructor, can't really. I'm not in school this semester. I took that class last semester.