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I'm looking for a RPG that rivals DnD/PFRPG in awesomeness and fun!
Everybody has a slightly different idea of what "fun" is.
Ideally the game system you want gives you the tools to play the way you enjoy playing, without getting in the way with confusing rules or time-consuming simulationism.
Unless that's you're "thing".
PFRPG (and its predecessors) is essentially a set of streamlined rules for creating characters to engage in small-unit tactical battles against a variety of creatures wielding medieval and fantastic weapons and armor. There is also some support for "role-playing" in between such battles.
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I'm looking for a RPG that rivals DnD/PFRPG in awesomeness and fun!Everybody has a slightly different idea of what "fun" is.
Ideally the game system you want gives you the tools to play the way you enjoy playing, without getting in the way with confusing rules or time-consuming simulationism.
Unless that's you're "thing".
PFRPG (and its predecessors) is essentially a set of streamlined rules for creating characters to engage in small-unit tactical battles against a variety of creatures wielding medieval and fantastic weapons and armor. There is also some support for "role-playing" in between such battles.
I fully agree with you. I have always liked the D20 system, even though 3.5 and PF is mostly better.
Is there anything that is as popular today as ADnD/3.5/PFRPG?
Many may disagree with me, but Savage Worlds comes to mind...
Toon. There, I said it.
Zo
I agree with Torillan: I like Savage Worlds as an alternative.
Hiya.
Actually, I'm kinda partial to just about any RPG written before 1990. :)
The 'newest' RPG's I've been liking a lot are the Silhouette system ("SilCORE") and CORETEX (which looks similar to Savage Worlds...). Of those two, I like SilCORE more I think.
Then there's two GREAT looking RPG's...but in play is/would be quite different I'm guessing; those are HARP and the age-old HERO System.
As far as 'still play' games...Powers & Perils (rules you can get now at www.powersandperils.org ), and Star Frontiers. :)
For roleplaying, I actually like the Storyteller system quite a lot.
But then, I'm also a 4e fan.
I'm fond of the Storyteller system (as well as the Old World of Darkness games which I think have a better storyline/fluff but that's a completely different debate) for more roleplay intensive games. The check resolution rules need a bit of work in my opinion but that's easily fixable.
Mutants and Masterminds and True20 are both amazing in my opinion. They might not be what you're looking for though because they are essentially the d20 system boiled down and simplified and then given different functionality. M&M for example is a classless point buy version of d20 geared towards super heroes and other high powered games. You buy everything with points- your skills, feats, ability scores and even you attack bonus. True20 is similar in that you buy your abilities with points though if I'm remembering correctly there are classes in that system to cover the three basic archtypes- warrior for the...well warriors, adept for the various caster types and expert for the sneaks, faces and other people that don't fit under the other two types. Both are very fun games though I'll warn you that in my experience M&M has a tendency to fall apart at the extreme low end of it's power level, you just don't get enough points to build really interesting characters. There were other restrictions on powers and such in place in the game I played that time though so those issues might have been unique to that game.
If you're looking for a fantasy game I'm very fond of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I use the 2nd Edition of it and am having a blast running a game of it. It is very different from d20, using a percentile system to resolve pretty much everything in the game except for damage. It's also fairly deadly, a good hit from a starting character could believably knock out or even kill a much more powerful person.
I also like Shadowrun though I've never played it so I can't really say how it plays.
Hope that helps some, I could go on but I'm going to quit before my post gets too much longer.
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Is there anything that is as popular today as ADnD/3.5/PFRPG?
Nope. D&D, in its various flavors is far and away the most popular RPG out there. If you're looking for something else, there's many, many alternatives though. Head down to you local friendly gaming store and browse, browse, browse.
One thing to ask yourself is 'What is it I like about Pathfinder?' Epic heroic battles? Tactical combat? Roleplaying as a mighty hero? Some
balance between all the above?
There's games out there for everyone, from Amber Diceless to Rolemaster.
Heck, you might even like to play table-top wargames, i.e. Warhammer Fantasy/40K. It's the fun tactical combat without all that boring 'roleplaying' getting in the way.
Lastly, what else does your gaming group/friends like to play? It is hard playing games without a group.
Heck, you might even like to play table-top wargames, i.e. Warhammer Fantasy/40K. It's the fun tactical combat without all that boring 'roleplaying' getting in the way.
Or if you want the fun role-playing without all that boring tactical combat getting in the way, you can look for a LARP group in your area. ;)
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Honestly, the only thing I really don't like about D&D 3.x (including PRPG) in general is the lack of options for weapon reach and weapon speed. Other than that though it does a good enough job of covering all the bases for both being enjoyable to play and inclusive and detailed enough to be a "realistic" fantasy simulation for all thing combat and roll playing that it continues to be my game of choice.
It really depends on what you are looking for. Rules light, PDQ or PDQ#. Rules medium, Castles & Crusades, Mutants & Masterminds, Savage Worlds, True20. Rules heavy, G.U.R.P.S., Hero System, Role Master.
PDQ and Mutants & Masterminds do not really have a pre-built magic system for you. If you like to tinker, great. If not, you will want to steer clear.
Hero System does have a pre-built magic system (4th edition) but it would require extra purchases. I believe G.U.R.P.S. would require an additional supplement for a fully realized magic system.
Of the systems I have mentioned, I believe Hero to be the most versatile. However, with that versatility comes a steep learning curve to wrap your head around the full possibilities. G.U.R.P.S. is also quite versatile, but most of the options are already pre-built for you.
I think of Mutants & Masterminds as Hero lite. It has a lot of the same versatility but simplifies the math (fewer fractions, yay!). However, you loose a lot of granularity with Mutants & Masterminds.
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Microlite 20. Rules lite, 1st edition feel.
E6 game. A game within the 2.5/d20 system that caps level at 6 and is much easier and better balanced that 3.5.
You want good roleplaying potential, a bit of a different fantasy feel, and DEFINITELY a heroic feel?
Go Exalted. Do it. NOW!
I'll second this. Exalted never appealed to me much personally, but nearly every person I know of who plays D&D also plays Exalted and enjoys it at least as much. The one downside to it (and the reason it never appealed as much to me) is that the system and the setting are heavily intertwined.
For me, the only thing that ever interested me as much as D&D/Pathfinder was Star Wars d20 - pre-Saga edition (I didn't have anyone to play it with by that point so I never bothered with the new books).
I think I need to dig out my old Star Wars books and Pathfinderize the system...
HoL
Definitely HoL
LOL best game ever ... and a really great read. I now understand the true meaning of the bell curve of 3d6.
But amazingly my vote is for shadowrun 3rd edition. The world is really deep, he options are vast, and the system is the best I have ever come across. bar none. It mixes gun-fighting, melee, and magic in balanced and compelling way. Dice pools are the key I think. They are a great way measuring your character's focus, as he/she navigates a combat round, giving you a sense of it in "bullet time", sort of.
4th edition does some good things but they lost some of the nuance that made 3rd edition great in an effort to be more "easy to learn".
WoD system is not bad. Its better that its previous incarnation. It has decent simple rules that make sense. Combat tends to be pretty brutal, but that is the system's intent.
Silcore is alright but every target mod REALLY has an impact, so when you calculate a lot of modifiers it can get a little out of wack. Other than that its very clean system.
Oddly PF/3.x is kind of a system with a lot of baggage for me. Classes, levels, and HP are things I associate with DnD so I don't have much problem with them when playing DnD games, but using them for other stuff seems sort of forced.
That said, what I have really enjoyed of the 3.x system games is the starwars d20 games I have played. Vitality points are good analog to combat pool in shadowrun. games I have played in that system have been really fun.
If you are looking for something that is a bit different then the vanilla fantasy game then you could look at the 'Burning Wheel' system.
It has a great edition in the Mouse Guard RPG.
They also have a fantasy, sci-fi (Burning Empires), and an oriental set of rules.
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The FuZion system, as seen customized & fine tuned in the Artesia RPG.
While it has a somewhat steep learning curve (due to the abundance of options, not due to intrinsic complexity), it is so flexible that it can be used to swith from a freeform, narrative game to a simulation-heavy mechanic in a pinch.
OK my 2cp here.
If I'm not playing D&D then I would rather play Shadowrun 3rd edition.
The big diffrence is everything is D6's and it's in a quasi-post apocolitic era.
The world is modern but has changed since magic came back, the north american native tribes took back a good chunk of their real estate.
Shadowrun 4th edition isnt bad but I dislike the lessening of power and what I consider an unneeded amalgamation of the shaman and mage class.
But thats a personal opinion.
Theres a lot of material out there for you to sink your cash into but all you need is the base players handbook (e-bay is great) and the newbie adventure "first run" or you can go to the website( I think it's still wizkids) and download free adventures.
Either way good luck and good gameing.
My personal favorite (actually even slightly above PFRPG) would be Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu.
Strangley, I find myself in agreement. Easy to learn,flexible. It's a great system. And if the road to insanity is not your thing, Basic RolePlaying adapts the system for other whatever genre you prefer. GURPS is a good system too, and can handle pretty much whatever you throw at it.
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Mutants & Masterminds is really fun. It does take a while to get used to buying everything (and I mean everything) but it plays well, covers a lot of abilities and is a lot of fun. I'll agree with a previous post that it is not a low power friendly system, though. There is also the Warriors and Warlocks book which allows you to use the M&M rules for a fantasy game. True20 is based on the same mechanics, but has classes. It is setting neutral, so you can play anything with it (ideally). I have never played it, since most of the people I play with have already invested money and brain space on games that are setting specific (fantasy, scifi, post apocalypse). Shadowrun is fun, but I am not crazy about the rule system. Hero System can be fun, but is very complex, if it takes a group a whole night to make a Mutants & Masterminds character, steer very clear of Hero system. SAGA edition starwars is good, but the force powers can be overpowered unless the GM really reigns them in, in which case, what's the point? I suppose it depends on what you and your group are looking to play, and what your rules tolerance is.
I've alway been partial to West End Games MasterBook. It's the second rpg I cut my gaming teeth on.
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HoL
Definitely HoL
LOL best game ever ... and a really great read. I now understand the true meaning of the bell curve of 3d6.
But amazingly my vote is for shadowrun 3rd edition. The world is really deep, he options are vast, and the system is the best I have ever come across. bar none. It mixes gun-fighting, melee, and magic in balanced and compelling way. Dice pools are the key I think. They are a great way measuring your character's focus, as he/she navigates a combat round, giving you a sense of it in "bullet time", sort of.
What's kind of funny is when I'm not being all tongue in cheek, I've played nearly as much Shadowrun 3rd Edition as I have D&D. It is absolutely my favorite game of all time (I have every SR book ever written from 1st ed. onward).
Of course, one's gaming experiences color what games they fondly remember. Most of the people in my gaming group don't remember Shadowrun very fondly, but that is because most of the games we played in ended the same way. Person with near infinite resources wants us dead, and has put us at the top of his "to do" list. Things like that get old real quick.
well backstabbing (the euphemistic, not literal kind) is part and parcel to shadowrun. As the saying goes, its not a shadowrun until Mr. Johnson screws you twice. But then the game is kind of "heist-movie-esque". The challenge is often whether the players can turn a bad situation into a profit.
edit- The way it went down in our games is that corporate movers and shakers are by necessity penny-pinchers, because they always have someone they have to explain their balance sheets to. So Corps rarely go out of their way to come after a shadowrunner, unless there is a more substantial monetary reason (they have something the corp wants, like a piece of tech or information, etc). As for run of the mill assassination, that is generally a waste of corp assets. The person who has to explain to his boss that CorpSec special forces team alpha got wasted going after Johny Mneumonic without a good reason, is gonna get canned. A person with a bone to pick could certainly spend their own money to have a runner taken out, but generally someone has to be pretty vengeful to spend their own money on hits.
Amber -Diceless RPG is one of my all time favorites
Of course, one's gaming experiences color what games they fondly remember. Most of the people in my gaming group don't remember Shadowrun very fondly, but that is because most of the games we played in ended the same way. Person with near infinite resources wants us dead, and has put us at the top of his "to do" list. Things like that get old real quick.well backstabbing (the euphemistic, not literal kind) is part and parcel to shadowrun. As the saying goes, its not a shadowrun until Mr. Johnson screws you twice. But then the game is kind of "heist-movie-esque". The challenge is often whether the players can turn a bad situation into a profit.
edit- The way it went down in our games is that corporate movers and shakers are by necessity penny-pinchers, because they always have someone they have to explain their balance sheets to. So Corps rarely go out of their way to come after a shadowrunner, unless there is a more substantial monetary reason (they have something the corp wants, like a piece of tech or information, etc). As for run of the mill assassination, that is generally a waste of corp assets. The person who has to explain to his boss that CorpSec special forces team alpha got wasted going after Johny Mneumonic without a good reason, is gonna get canned. A person with a bone to pick could certainly spend their own money to have a runner taken out, but generally someone has to be pretty vengeful to spend their own money on hits.
Yes, this. A great piece of advice I once read regarding Shadowrun (alas, I do not have the source to attribute) was that Shadowrunners exist. Therefore, it is up to the GM to apply his logic and resources in such a way that they can continue to exist. And it isn't the huge stretch of the imagination that it may seem. After all, Shadowrunners exist in our world right now. And if governments with truly infinite resources can't stamp them out completely, then how would a profit minded "do you have last months numbers yet" corporation do it.
I'm surprised nobody mentions Pendragon, which remains the best system ever in terms of character interaction and roleplaying.
If you like your fantasy blended with mythology and history, go for it, it still is my favourite game of all time.
I've recently been absorbing Fantasy Craft by Crafty Games, and I must admit I'm quite impressed. Lots of crunch, more like a toolkit for creating a system that you like.
It is definitely giving Savage Worlds a run for its money in my book (Tho I still do love SW!!)
If you are looking for a good filler game tailor made for a quick run one shot adventure I highly reccomend Feng Shui from Atlas Games.
Hong Kong action style is fast paced and a lot of fun.
I also would add BESM 3.5 as well as Mutants and Mastermind.
For me,currently, the best system for fantasy storytelling on the 'super powers' end of the scale, is the Exalted lines version of the storyteller system.
- A single system that covers all skills and combat in a unified manner.
- An awesomes setting.
- Social conflict resolution on a par with combat.
- a magic system that awesomes solutions to challenges, other than I hit it with my sword.
Now if i am looking for a more realistic fantasy game, i tend to go for WFRP 2nd ed, or Artesia: adventures in the known world.
HoL
Definitely HoL
+1
+1HoL
Definitely HoL
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Amber -Diceless RPG is one of my all time favorites
+1
Amber is as close to actual roleplaying as you can get.
For the faint of heart who need dice and clearly defined powers there are a few alternatives to D&D:
Storyteller
The system itself does what d20 does only more cumbersome. I can't see a big imporvement there. Running Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Wraith/Changeling/Aberrant... with d20 would work just as well or even better. Nice themes though (Aberrant being hands down the best superhero game by far).
Shadowrun
Nice system, but also a bit heavy on the simulation side. Dicepools and all are nice and really fit the theme of gunslinging, but it takes time to go through a combat round and some players may act multiple times over other players. Definitely worth a try though if d20 is too simple for you.
Exalted
Well, this system strikes me as overly complicated (storyteller times 2). It sure takes some time to get used to but when you have your breakthrough and all the jigsaw pieces fall into shape it's a fine system that really fits the superhero-manga theme it transports. Not for the faint of hearth though, as there are a plethora of rules to mind and small errors can have game shattering consequences.
Legends of the five Rings
Very nice and quite easy. Akin to storyteller but more elegant. Also very exotic and unique setting - maybe one of the best supported settings of all. Roleplaying is really encouraged and if you like the feudal japan intrigue/politics style then there is nothing better around.
Warhammer RPG
Nice and unique approach. Colorful setting thats supported by the rules. The system itself is easy enough but really can't hold against d20.
Ars Magica
Very nice if you like to play wizards, but also quite complicated. Works with a group of dedicated players as the rules are a lot about min/maxing combined with character generation. This and the fact that you play several characters (your Wizard and his retinue) makes it unique.
These are the system I have experience with, but remember always: the best system is the one you made yourself :-)
Amber -Diceless RPG is one of my all time favorites+1
Amber is as close to actual roleplaying as you can get.
For the faint of heart who need dice and clearly defined powers there are a few alternatives to D&D:
Storyteller
The system itself does what d20 does only more cumbersome. I can't see a big imporvement there. Running Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Wraith/Changeling/Aberrant... with d20 would work just as well or even better. Nice themes though (Aberrant being hands down the best superhero game by far).Shadowrun
Nice system, but also a bit heavy on the simulation side. Dicepools and all are nice and really fit the theme of gunslinging, but it takes time to go through a combat round and some players may act multiple times over other players. Definitely worth a try though if d20 is too simple for you.Exalted
Well, this system strikes me as overly complicated (storyteller times 2). It sure takes some time to get used to but when you have your breakthrough and all the jigsaw pieces fall into shape it's a fine system that really fits the superhero-manga theme it transports. Not for the faint of hearth though, as there are a plethora of rules to mind and small errors can have game shattering consequences.Legends of the five Rings
Very nice and quite easy. Akin to storyteller but more elegant. Also very exotic and unique setting - maybe one of the best supported settings of all. Roleplaying is really encouraged and if you like the feudal japan intrigue/politics style then there is nothing better around.Warhammer RPG
Nice and unique approach. Colorful setting thats supported by the rules. The system itself is easy enough but really can't hold against d20.Ars Magica
Very nice if you like to play wizards, but also quite complicated. Works with a group of dedicated players as the rules are a lot about min/maxing combined with character generation. This and the fact that you play several characters (your Wizard and his...
While your entitled to your opinion, your description of Storyteller is not one that I recognise, especially after many years of play.
Saying that the D20 system can do everything as well or better than the storyteller system, to me is a laughable statement.
It does do some things better. Indepth tactical skirmishes for instance, something you would be mad to try and run using storyteller. Given that such conflicts are the meat an two veggies of sword and sorcery stories in role-playing, clearly one would do well to consider using a D20 over storyteller. I am sure there are other things that it does better, though none stand out to me at time of writing.
But there is much that storyteller does far better.
1, Chase scenes
In storyteller, the core system contains a chase mechanic. D20 has no such core mechanic.
Movement receives consideration as something of importance outside of its role in tactical combat, using a raft of attributes, abilities, merits, equipment and environmental modifiers to determine the outcome of chases. You have to step beyond the core RAW to find any chase rules for D20.
2, Investigation
Again, the mix and match approach to attributes and abilities, not to mention merits, allows for a wider range of investigative approaches. While, other systems do investigation better still than Storyteller (such as the gumshoe system, use in trail of cthulhu), the characters attributes and abilities influence investigations in Storyteller far more, and in more interesting ways, than D20.
3, Social conflict
What provides a boon to investigative game styles is also the great strength of social conflict in storyteller. The approach you take as a player truly matters, in a way that it does not in the D20 system.
The storyteller system reflects the circumstances and the people involved, in a far more mature and holistic manner than D20. There are 9 potential mechanically approaches to initiating an intimidation attempt, each of which maybe further influenced by modifiers from environment, circumstance and equipment, or complicated by other factors. The system supports and encourages the mix and match approach, where D20 says, that Intimidation is D20 + Cha mod + intimidate vs. 10 + HD + wis mod. It requires a full blown feat to change this.
This is not to say that pure storyteller is the best at this either, to my mind Exalted holds that honour, with L5R holding some interesting ideas in close second.
4, Points Buy
Simply put, levels are less preferable from a 'concept first' roleplaying perspective. If your start with an idea for a character and then build the character to reflect that idea, then level based systems are basically about as bad a choice as you can find, they narrow the range of concepts you can play. One must either change the concept to fit the class, or give up and play a different concept all together.
5, High level play.
High level play does not break down to anything near the same degree in pure storyteller, as it does in D20.
6, Simpler maths
I find mental arithmetic somewhat time consuming an difficult. For me, assembling a dice pool considerable easier that all the number crunching in D20.
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Microlite 20. Rules lite, 1st edition feel.
E6 game. A game within the 2.5/d20 system that caps level at 6 and is much easier and better balanced that 3.5.
Really!
Microlite 20 is my main system right now. It's fun, fast, and great because we have a lot of beginners in the group. E6, applied to Pathfinder is what I want to try next. Aside from the monster thread by Ryan Stoughton himself at ENWorld, I haven't heard of anyone who's tried it for a long stretch. How does it make a campaign play?
I've looked at Storyteller. Mechanically it seems like a great system, really good for encouraging roleplay. The trouble is, I'm not a fan of modern or "Dark" settings (or Street Fighter).
I've looked at Storyteller. Mechanically it seems like a great system, really good for encouraging roleplay. The trouble is, I'm not a fan of modern or "Dark" settings (or Street Fighter).
It is true, that storyteller works best for horror settings. That said, it can work for non-horror settings, with a relatively high degree of narrative and thematic realism, if you don't mind not worrying to much about stratigic skirmish gaming and simulationism. If you want a more fantasy happy version of the system, you might consider using the basic exalted version of the storyteller system, but playing using heroic mortals.
It is true, that storyteller works best for horror settings. That said, it can work for non-horror settings, with a relatively high degree of narrative and thematic realism, if you don't mind not worrying to much about stratigic skirmish gaming and simulationism. If you want a more fantasy happy version of the system, you might consider using the basic exalted version of the storyteller system, but playing using heroic mortals.
I've looked at Storyteller. Mechanically it seems like a great system, really good for encouraging roleplay. The trouble is, I'm not a fan of modern or "Dark" settings (or Street Fighter).
Actually, have you ever heard of a little game called Streetfighter?