Again I'm waiting to hear from the Rogue players gallery how a Rogue can achieve a sneak attack against a character who is invisible that wasnt the one targeted in the first place - the figment was.
And I'm waiting to hear from the Princess's gallery why a Rogue with an intelligence higher than "-" will continually attack a target they know is an illusion.
Also, displacement does not grant invisibility. See invisibility and invisibility purge do not nullify the spell.
Yup, I understand both sides. It's too bad that the rules as written don't actually agree with your position. I agree with you in that this is how it should work, but I agree with Zurai in that the rules explictly state that it doesn't.
Precisely...
This is not an absurd question at all...
But why does noone dispute that a Rogue cannot sneak attack an invisible character (unless they can see through it somehw), but the paramaters of this spell FOIL two of the criteria the Rogue needs to meet to achieve the Sneak Attack.
Condition 1 : Be within range
Condition 2 : Be able to see your target clearly enough to pick out a vital area
Condition 3 : The target cannot have concealment
Since the target is NOT where the Rogue is 'precisely' attacking, how do they still achieve a Sneak Attack?, they cannot. They cannot see the hidden being within 2ft but they can see the illusion standing nearby, so they know what it looks like and where they WOULD hit it if they could see it. A Rogue could damage the target but they cannot accurately identify it to sneak attack it while its hidden like this.
Concealment isnt the only aspect of the spell, the spell specifically states the caster's true location is hidden 2 ft from their figment, that in itself is NOT just a concealment issue but an issue of the Rogue precisely seeing his opponent and being able to pick out a vital area....again, I ask, how is this accomplished without using True Seeing?
A Rogue who realises he missed or clipped his opponent might realise what hes up against with a Spellcraft test, or he might try and retreat and come back when the spell wears off. If he stays and fights he will try to fight the best he can, he wont attack the figment but he has to attack NEAR it since he doesnt know precisely where the real opponent is.
And Displacement also says that you can target the creature normally unlike normal concealment.
One of your previous arguments was:
The Displaced creature isnt standing where the Rogue intends to strike however - so while he sees the illusionary figment of the target he isnt going to hit the targets kidney, hes going to poke the unseen character in an unexpected place and that is NOT how precision damage works.Using that logic, you could NEVER hit some one under the effect of Displacement. They would be immune to everything but AoEs.
He can see the subject clearly so he can pick out where exactly to hit. If he manages to hit, it would be in the place picked to hit.
Or is the argument that you hit a displaced creature by flailing...
Displacement doesn't provide concealment. I thought we had established that.
Sneak Attack, though, does have a requirement 'to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot'. That vital spot being somewhere on a 2 ft radius circumference around what you can actually see (you cannot see the actual vital spot at all) would seem to be grounds for not seen well enough. We're not talking about normal damage here. Just sneak attack.
Condition 2 : Be able to see your target clearly enough to pick out a vital area
Again.. because the duplicte is an unadulterated copy of you. there is absolutely nothing masking where your vitals are... and provided you succeed at that miss-chance.. that is the spot you will be hitting.
How do you know you're fighting someone with Displacement up (assuming you didn't make a Spellcraft check when the spell was cast)? There is no save to recognize the illusion in this case. The target of the spell is the one who's displaced, not the attackers. Without foreknowledge, you have no reason whatsoever to guess he's really on one side or the other.As soon as you make an attack (even one that doesn't involve an attack roll) that doesn't meet with resistance when it should, you know the image is illusionary.
And if you want to get real technical, a person isn't going to act to a rogue flailing away at thin air 2 feet from you as they are when the rogue is flailing away directly at you. Displacement has no "in game" effect other than to shift your image 2 feet away from where you really are, so it transmits your actions and reactions exactly as you make them. When you fail to parry or dodge and the rogue skewers an image, only to pull back bloodless weapons, he's going to know something is up.
Yup. Something is up, but without any other information (past experience, a shout from the wizard, a successful Spellcraft or Kn:Arcana check maybe), the attacker still has no idea what that something is. Maybe the target moved so quick he couldn't see? Maybe he's etheral? Maybe he's a g-g-g-ghost!! Ahhhh!
Even if the attacker does successfully realize that he's up against displacement, he still has no basis to guess left, right, forward, back, up or down, and how far. He's got a 50% chance to land a hit, but there's no way that hit is going to be exactly where he wanted it.
Again.. because the duplicte is an unadulterated copy of you. there is absolutely nothing masking where your vitals are... and provided you succeed at that miss-chance.. that is the spot you will be hitting.
Condition 2 : Be able to see your target clearly enough to pick out a vital area
Exactly...on the figment, thank you for making my point for me. He doesnt know of or can locate the real spellcaster who is 2 ft away, he can study the figments anatomy till the cows come home but attacking the illusionary copy does not achieve a sneak attack.
Your not actually attacking the spellcaster, the figment is the first one attacked on the opening round, every round afterward the Rogue will be wary as to WHERE the real opponent is, he can see the figment and knows its close, but he wont see the hidden foe coming at him accurately.
Sneak Attack, though, does have a requirement 'to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot'.
Which is met. You can pick out the vital spot on the image. ALL that displacement does is shift the image 2 feet. There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.
But why does noone dispute that a Rogue cannot sneak attack an invisible character (unless they can see through it somehw), but the paramaters of this spell FOIL two of the criteria the Rogue needs to meet to achieve the Sneak Attack.Condition 1 : Be within range
Condition 2 : Be able to see your target clearly enough to pick out a vital area
Condition 3 : The target cannot have concealment
Displacement EXPLICITLY says it is "like" concealment but then explains how and why it is not concealment such that the Rogue would still meet conditions 2 and 3.
The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance.
Points highlighted for you.
And you have a 50% chance of hitting where you aim. The person is clearly there but you only have a 50% chance of piercing the illusion. Applying too much logic and realism to displacement leads to absolute absurdity.
You have a 50% chance of hitting. Forget about the aim. You don't pierce the illusion, unless you're ruling that a successful attack dispels Displacement.
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There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.
Only he can't figure out where his target is because he has a 4" diameter circle of places where it could be. He is stabbing blindly.
The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance.Points highlighted for you.
That is in reference to the fact that total concealment means you cannot target the opponent at all. It allows you to target the right 5" square.
Sneak Attack, though, does have a requirement 'to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot'.Which is met. You can pick out the vital spot on the image. ALL that displacement does is shift the image 2 feet. There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.
Okay Zurai, so WHICH direction within 2 feet is the character your trying to hit?, oh right, hes INVISIBLE, and you cannot pinpoint him beyond the fact hes within 2 ft of his illusionary copy.
Now your attacking blindly...is it going to be to the left of the figment, right of the figment or even behind the figment?...so where are you going to attack?Thats my point with regards to trying to 'shoot the guy in the heart with your crossbow', you dont know where hes standing except it has to be within 2 ft.
There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.Only he can't figure out where his opponent is because he has a 4" diameter circle of places where it could be. He is stabbing blindly.
Exactly, thank you.
And you have a 50% chance of hitting where you aim. The person is clearly there but you only have a 50% chance of piercing the illusion. Applying too much logic and realism to displacement leads to absolute absurdity.You have a 50% chance of hitting. Forget about the aim. You don't pierce the illusion, unless you're ruling that a successful attack dispels Displacement.
We are already absurdly trying to solidify a abstract system. Don't be difficult for the sake of it
Question...
Granted total concealment prevents you from being able to target a creature, yet Displacement does... So if I Migic Missile an opponent covered by Displacement, who am I hitting? The illusion or the real deal?
Maybe the target moved so quick he couldn't see? Maybe he's etheral? Maybe he's a g-g-g-ghost!! Ahhhh!
Ethereal creatures are invisible. Ghosts are transparent. "moved so quick he couldn't see" would have impact on the target's clothing, hair, and so on. None of that is true with displacement.
Even if the attacker does successfully realize that he's up against displacement, he still has no basis to guess left, right, forward, back, up or down, and how far.
Actually, he does. 99% of the time, it will NOT be down, as that would put the target 2 feet into solid ground. Yes, it could be combined with meld into stone or some other similar spell, but that's going to be such a rare occurrence that it's dismissible. Combining with flight is less rare, but still not going to be a baseline assumption. And it's almost certain the target isn't going to be 2 feet closer to him, because otherwise they're going to be coexistent. So, there's a 270 degree arc of possibilities, roughly. And yes, if he knows it's displacement, he DOES know how far. Displacement doesn't displace the image "up to" 2 feet. It displaces it exactly 2 feet.
(For the record, the fluff of displacement as written makes it an absurdly useless spell, because it doesn't say the image changes location relative to the real creature, which means the attacker just has to "zero in" on where the guy actually is and he's completely negated the spell)
Since Princess of Canada is ignoring me, some one PLEASE ask her how exactly one combats Displacement. Flailing around randomly? Would it then negate all attacks by piercing weapons because one CANNOT flail around with a piercing weapon. Not to mention negate all ranged attacks completely because they can flail around even less than piercing weapons.
So Displacement grants you 50% miss chance against people with bludgeoning and slashing weapons and makes you immune to piercing and ranged weapons.
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Question...
Granted total concealment prevents you from being able to target a creature, yet Displacement does... So if I Migic Missile an opponent covered by Displacement, who am I hitting? The illusion or the real deal?
The real deal. But all you will see is the illusion taking damage.
Since Princess of Canada is ignoring me, some one PLEASE ask her how exactly one combats Displacement. Flailing around randomly? Would it then negate all attacks by piercing weapons because one CANNOT flail around with a piercing weapon. Not to mention negate all ranged attacks completely because they can flail around even less than piercing weapons.
It allows you to attack into their 5" square. Which you can do with invisibility as well and attempt to hit despite the 50% miss chance. Only Displacement does not require you to determine which square the target is in.
A "Sneak Attack" vs an invisible opponent...fail?, yes, unless the Rogue can see through it somehow.
"Displacement" does this and provides an Illusionary Copy that appears ANYWHERE within 2 ft of you, the Rogue is not going to know where the real one is unless he somehow grapples him (and provoking an AoO while doing it vs an invisible opponent), the only benefit the Rogue has is he knows roughly within a 2ft radius of the illusion where the enemy is.
So if the Rogue has to GUESS where the real one is, how can a sneak attack be achieved?, he cant, because the real one is hidden as if they were invisible, thats why.
As for combating Displacement, anyone can attack the character how they please, they just suffer a 50% miss chance doing so (though Blind Fight gives you a second chance to hit), I'd wager a fighter type probably has that Feat so he isnt struggling too much. AoE spells work nicely too, since you'll still catch the character and know where it is roughly...
Thats only some of millions of ways someone can fight a Displaced character, I have NEVER said they are immune to any piercing damage, only that you cannot make out their anatomy since theyre hidden with 2 ft of an illusionary clone.
Question...
Granted total concealment prevents you from being able to target a creature, yet Displacement does... So if I Migic Missile an opponent covered by Displacement, who am I hitting? The illusion or the real deal?
Magic Missiles would hit the real deal, since a) you aren't prevented from targeting, b) they're not precise and c) they're Magic... (insert wavey hands to oohs and aahs) :)
This thread has been fun, thanks guys. Good luck with running to the end of that moebius strip.
heres things that allow a rogue to sneak attack an invisible character
a bag of flour (or the equivlaent) a bag of flour costs about a copper piece
a glitterdust spell, a 3rd level wizard can do this
the other 4 senses. touch, hearing, smell and taste
any 6th sense.
any clothes the invisible character wears or any weapons they wield. to be truly unseen, they would have to be buck naked
invisibility makes you invisible, but not your clothes or your gear. meaning a wizard better strip buck naked first to gain the full benefit. to where not even a loin cloth remains, said wizard would wish they were a hot sorceress in this case.
all of us are trying to over analyze a system that doesn't require much thought. we need to stop this over analysis before it leads to bloodshed and heads mounted on pikes. the system is not meant to be realistic. it is an abstraction of handwaves, most of which include "A wizard did it"
"It's a game, just relax."
Okay Zurai, so WHICH direction within 2 feet is the character your trying to hit?, oh right, hes INVISIBLE, and you cannot pinpoint him beyond the fact hes within 2 ft of his illusionary copy.
Oh, so now you stop ignoring me. I refuse to answer any of your questions until you answer mine. There's about 2 pages worth at this point that you've ignored. I won't hold my breath.
A "Sneak Attack" vs an invisible opponent...fail?, yes, unless the Rogue can see through it somehow.
"Displacement" does this and provides an Illusionary Copy that appears ANYWHERE within 2 ft of you, the Rogue is not going to know where the real one is unless he somehow grapples him (and provoking an AoO while doing it vs an invisible opponent), the only benefit the Rogue has is he knows roughly within a 2ft radius of the illusion where the enemy is.So if the Rogue has to GUESS where the real one is, how can a sneak attack be achieved?, he cant, because the real one is hidden as if they were invisible, thats why.
So Displacement makes you immune to all piercing weapons and ranged weapons?
Sneak Attack, though, does have a requirement 'to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot'.Which is met. You can pick out the vital spot on the image. ALL that displacement does is shift the image 2 feet. There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.
That's a whole lotta cypherin' for that Rogue to Sneaky strike what he cannot see. That's a lot of metagame. How does the Rogue know anything about 2 ft? It could be entirely illusion, it could be an improved 5 ft displacement. It could be incorporeal. How does the Rogue suss this out?
Since Princess of Canada is ignoring me, some one PLEASE ask her how exactly one combats Displacement. Flailing around randomly? Would it then negate all attacks by piercing weapons because one CANNOT flail around with a piercing weapon. Not to mention negate all ranged attacks completely because they can flail around even less than piercing weapons.
So Displacement grants you 50% miss chance against people with bludgeoning and slashing weapons and makes you immune to piercing and ranged weapons.
Psst... I know it's hard with such an active thread, but I replied to you, and Princess replied to my post.
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So Displacement makes you immune to all piercing weapons and ranged weapons?
Again.
It allows you to attack into their 5" square. Which you can do with invisibility as well and attempt to hit despite the 50% miss chance. Only Displacement does not require you to determine which square the target is in. So weapon types are irrelevant.
That's a whole lotta cypherin' for that Rogue to Sneaky strike what he cannot see. That's a lot of metagame. How does the Rogue know anything about 2 ft? It could be entirely illusion, it could be an improved 5 ft displacement. It could be incorporeal. How does the Rogue suss this out?
A Spellcraft check by anyone in the party. I have never played in a party that didn't identify 95% or more of the spells cast by an enemy caster and immediately call them out to the party.
Since Princess of Canada is ignoring me, some one PLEASE ask her how exactly one combats Displacement. Flailing around randomly? Would it then negate all attacks by piercing weapons because one CANNOT flail around with a piercing weapon. Not to mention negate all ranged attacks completely because they can flail around even less than piercing weapons.
So Displacement grants you 50% miss chance against people with bludgeoning and slashing weapons and makes you immune to piercing and ranged weapons.
No one's argued the Displaced target cannot be hit, we're talking sneak attack.
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A Spellcraft check by anyone in the party. I have never played in a party that didn't identify 95% or more of the spells cast by an enemy caster and immediately call them out to the party.
Heh, I've never played in a group where more than one person knew what Spellcraft did, and they rarely made checks in combat.
A Spellcraft check by anyone in the party. I have never played in a party that didn't identify 95% or more of the spells cast by an enemy caster and immediately call them out to the party.That's a whole lotta cypherin' for that Rogue to Sneaky strike what he cannot see. That's a lot of metagame. How does the Rogue know anything about 2 ft? It could be entirely illusion, it could be an improved 5 ft displacement. It could be incorporeal. How does the Rogue suss this out?
And what happens without a Spellcraft check?
Sneak Attack, though, does have a requirement 'to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot'.Which is met. You can pick out the vital spot on the image. ALL that displacement does is shift the image 2 feet. There's no rotation or other transformation (to use technical terms) applied to the image. It's just 2' off. That's all the data a rogue needs to decide where to aim; he just has to figure out where the target actually is.That's a whole lotta cypherin' for that Rogue to Sneaky strike what he cannot see. That's a lot of metagame. How does the Rogue know anything about 2 ft? It could be entirely illusion, it could be an improved 5 ft displacement. It could be incorporeal. How does the Rogue suss this out?
Ok, let's be realistic. The rogue attacks, overcomes the 50% miss chance, and hits. Since he can't wave his arm around randomly and he is attacking a definite shape, but not where it actually is, overcoming the 50% miss chance means he hits it in a different place than was aimed for (a rogue is more likely to have a piercing weapon, all attacks are aimed). When the illusion responds to the hit, the Rogue (being an experienced fighter at this point), realizes that he hit the guy in the right arm when he aimed for the left leg. He automatically corrects for every future attack and therefore - since Displacement does not say the image shifts each round - Displacement is dispelled the first time an attack connects.
I win using RAW or your realism.
AND to counter a previous argument - Sneak Attack is a specific hit to a specific location. Luck dispels Sneak Attack. Impossible EVERY hit is pure luck. The guy isn't normally going to stand there and let you stab him in the neck. He is going to try to move out of the way, or bring a shield to bare, or deflect it on his armor - even flanked. It is therefore impossible for Sneak Attack to work any other way than how Sudden Strike works.
No one's argued the Displaced target cannot be hit, we're talking sneak attack.Since Princess of Canada is ignoring me, some one PLEASE ask her how exactly one combats Displacement. Flailing around randomly? Would it then negate all attacks by piercing weapons because one CANNOT flail around with a piercing weapon. Not to mention negate all ranged attacks completely because they can flail around even less than piercing weapons.
So Displacement grants you 50% miss chance against people with bludgeoning and slashing weapons and makes you immune to piercing and ranged weapons.
What Cartigan is saying is that the way Princess claims displacement works (the attacker flails randomly at the image for no apparent reason) would give it a nearly 100% miss chance with thrusting weapons such as spears or arrows. Such weapons would ONLY hit if the target were directly behind the image relative to the attacker.
I am not ignoring anyone, but everyone seems to think this is just about concealment, its not.
The displaced characters real location is hidden within 2 ft of his illusionary copy, the Rogue can study the opponent to be sure before he makes his move (lets assume the Rogue is invisible and didnt see the Displacement spell being cast or failed his Spellcraft test upon watching the mage)
Said Rogue sneaks out (or goes invisible) and reaches the Displaced mage unseen and unheard, he then goes to town with whatever he has at hand, be it one weapon or two weapons, stabbing at his 'victims' weak points.
The Rogues attacks pierce the illusion in the weak points as he expected, but much to the Rogues surprise...is this foe a Ghost?, is it an Illusion?....who knows. But perhaps half his attacks caught something that was standing nearby that he didnt expect, grazing it.
The target likely reacts by making a 5ft step on their turn - now the Rogue doesnt know where they moved to unless they make a very difficult perception (listening) test to get an idea of where they moved to, but the illusion gives them a rough idea within 2 ft radius (assuming the Rogue passed his spellcraft test) where the target really is.
Say the displaced mage uses a defensive spell, relying on displacement to protect his hide, the Rogue knowing what hes up against has to try to reveal the hidden character somehow (bag of flour, glitterdust, etc), if he goes in swinging at the illusion hes not going to know where the real opponent is nearby (the opponent is for all purposes invisible, but the figment gives away its rough location), he cant sneak attack the real one because he cant see it at all to make his precision based sneak attacks.
That is how the whole thing would start out and the Rogue's options would be AoE effects, or to try and grapple or pin down the target if he managed to get a hold of them or he would run off and wait till the spell expired.
it's just a game, just calm down, and relax. my heart rate is having issues. can we all just sit down and agree that the game is an abstraction and not meant to be realistic.
we have several examples of non realism
random numbers and everything written on that piece of paper called a character sheet.
the entire game system itself.
you know what?
it's just a game. i'm dropping out of this argument.
I am not ignoring anyone, but everyone seems to think this is just about concealment, its not.The displaced characters real location is hidden within 2 ft of his illusionary copy, the Rogue can study the opponent to be sure before he makes his move (lets assume the Rogue is invisible and didnt see the Displacement spell being cast or failed his Spellcraft test upon watching the mage)
Said Rogue sneaks out (or goes invisible) and reaches the Displaced mage unseen and unheard, he then goes to town with whatever he has at hand, be it one weapon or two weapons, stabbing at his 'victims' weak points.
The Rogues attacks pierce the illusion in the weak points as he expected, but much to the Rogues surprise...is this foe a Ghost?, is it an Illusion?....who knows. But perhaps half his attacks caught something that was standing nearby that he didnt expect, grazing it.
The target likely reacts by making a 5ft step on their turn - now the Rogue doesnt know where they moved to unless they make a very difficult perception (listening) test to get an idea of where they moved to, but the illusion gives them a rough idea within 2 ft radius (assuming the Rogue passed his spellcraft test) where the target really is.
Say the displaced mage uses a defensive spell, relying on displacement to protect his hide, the Rogue knowing what hes up against has to try to reveal the hidden character somehow (bag of flour, glitterdust, etc), if he goes in swinging at the illusion hes not going to know where the real opponent is nearby (the opponent is for all purposes invisible, but the figment gives away its rough location), he cant sneak attack the real one because he cant see it at all to make his precision based sneak attacks.That is how the whole thing would start out and the Rogue's options would be AoE effects, or to try and grapple or pin down the target if he managed to get a hold of them or he would run off and wait till the spell expired.
Using the "realism" logic being espoused, the first attack that hits dispels the effect of Displacement for the character that made the hit and, by common D&D rules, would give everyone else a bonus to hit if the character who connects shouted out where the guy is. And when they hit, Displacement is dispelled for them.
And what happens without a Spellcraft check?
As I've already pointed out, the image does not shift relative to where the displaced creature is, by RAW. So he just zeros in. If he aims for the right thigh and hits the left thigh, he knows the target is shifted over a couple feet and adjusts his aim. Since the spell doesn't say the image shifts (unlike, for example, mirror image), he now knows exactly where the guy is.
That's what happens when you try to de-abstractify an abstract combat system instead of just playing the rules how they read.
I win using RAW or your realism.Because his arms and legs will stay in the same relative positions throughout combat?
No, of course not, but the image is ALWAYS going to move EXACTLY relative to the way the real character moves. The character flails his arm up and down, he flails it up and down two feet away at exactly the same time and in parallel. Unless displacement affects time, any movement is irrelevant once the first hit is made.
What Cartigan is saying is that the way Princess claims displacement works (the attacker flails randomly at the image for no apparent reason) would give it a nearly 100% miss chance with thrusting weapons such as spears or arrows. Such weapons would ONLY hit if the target were directly behind the image relative to the attacker.
Cartigan's arguing that Displacement is dispelled after 1 attack, but you're not going for that, I presume.
How does the rogue replace his metagame knowledge without a Spellcraft check?
Edit: You've replaced a Spellcraft check with an attack that provides that knowledge for a future attack. So did Displacement defeat sneak attack on that initial strike?
I am not ignoring anyone, but everyone seems to think this is just about concealment, its not.
Then why do you never respond to any of my questions or statements that aren't about concealment at all? I havn't even MENTIONED concealment for the last ... <counts> 6+ posts (that's all that are on the thread overview, for the record).
The displaced characters real location is hidden within 2 ft of his illusionary copy
Incorrect. The real location is hidden exactly 2 feet at a fixed relative location from his illusionary copy.
What Cartigan is saying is that the way Princess claims displacement works (the attacker flails randomly at the image for no apparent reason) would give it a nearly 100% miss chance with thrusting weapons such as spears or arrows. Such weapons would ONLY hit if the target were directly behind the image relative to the attacker.Cartigan's arguing that Displacement is dispelled after 1 attack
If we are using "real-world" logic, it has to be.
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No, of course not, but the image is ALWAYS going to move EXACTLY relative to the way the real character moves. The character flails his arm up and down, he flails it up and down two feet away at exactly the same time and in parallel. Unless displacement affects time, any movement is irrelevant once the first hit is made.
Well, I will concede that someone practiced in stabbing people in the face can adjust their aim in combat. I don't think that is enough justification to say that they can just as easily target a constantly moving target 2 feet from their reference point without specific training. I know I can't draw from a reference without looking at the paper or it looks horrible.
Cartigan's arguing that Displacement is dispelled after 1 attack, but you're not going for that, I presume.
No, he isn't. You need to read more carefully. He's saying that people are being absurdly "realistic" about a spell that is intended for use in an extremely abstract combat system. Even more, people are picking and choosing how they apply their realism. They say that according to the text of the spell, the rogue can't see where the target is. Fine; according to the text of the spell, the target and its image are at a fixed position relative to each other. Thus, when the rogue scores even a single hit, he knows exactly how far and in which direction the real target is relative to the image, which effectively dispels the image.
How does the rogue replace his metagame knowledge without a Spellcraft check?
Have you bothered to read my posts at all? I'll repeat myself:
Attacks are being made constantly during any round of combat in which you threaten an opponent. You only roll an attack roll for attacks that have a chance to actually hit, but you're doing "thrust-parry-riposte-parry-thrust" 100% of the time when you're engaged in melee. However, when you're attacking a creature who's actually 2 feet from where you aim, that creature will not and, in fact, cannot act and react the same way as if it were exactly where you were targeting. It won't flinch away from attacks, it can't parry them effectively, and the image provided by the spell mirrors the creature's actions exactly, so the attacker knows.
There's no metagaming involved. It's pure logic and realism.
If we are using "real-world" logic, it has to be.
Only if you're using metagame knowledge. And for the sake of this discussion, let's assume this is the first round of combat. How does the Rogue make his assertion where the mage actually is?
No, of course not, but the image is ALWAYS going to move EXACTLY relative to the way the real character moves. The character flails his arm up and down, he flails it up and down two feet away at exactly the same time and in parallel. Unless displacement affects time, any movement is irrelevant once the first hit is made.Well, I will concede that someone practiced in stabbing people in the face can adjust their aim in combat. I don't think that is enough justification to say that they can just as easily target a constantly moving target 2 feet from their reference point without specific training. I know I can't draw from a reference without looking at the paper or it looks horrible.
Then you argument implies that they couldn't constantly target a moving target in ANY location relative to themselves. At that point they should take up smithing and leave adventuring to competent fighters.
I know I can't draw from a reference without looking at the paper or it looks horrible.
But the people who draw Marvel comics can. Adventurers learned highscale combat in the dungeoneering school of hard knocks.
And for the sake of this discussion, let's assume this is the first round of combat. How does the Rogue make his assertion where the mage actually is?
Well, let's see. For one thing, displacement is rounds/level. That means it will NOT be pre-cast barring something like a scry-and-fry (in which case the rogue is utterly screwed because he's probably naked and boinking a tavern wench). That means he sees the mage cast a spell, then sees the mage "jump" exactly two feet to one side instantly. When he attacks said mage's image and hits nothing but air, and the mage continues to do whatever, there's only two logical conclusions: one, he teleported away leaving a total illusion behind, or two he made an illusion of himself 2' from where he really is. Since the second is testable, it will be tested, and proven.
No metagaming or spellcraft involved.
Have you bothered to read my posts at all? I'll repeat myself:Attacks are being made constantly during any round of combat in which you threaten an opponent. You only roll an attack roll for attacks that have a chance to actually hit, but you're doing "thrust-parry-riposte-parry-thrust" 100% of the time when you're engaged in melee. However, when you're attacking a creature who's actually 2 feet from where you aim, that creature will not and, in fact, cannot act and react the same way as if it were exactly where you were targeting. It won't flinch away from attacks, it can't parry them effectively, and the image provided by the spell mirrors the creature's actions exactly, so the attacker knows.
There's no metagaming involved. It's pure logic and realism.
I apologize. In the thrust and parry of this thread is it inconceivable that a post could be written before your post is posted?
So it's thrust-parry-riposte-parry-thrust-sneak attack, then?
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Attacks are being made constantly during any round of combat in which you threaten an opponent. You only roll an attack roll for attacks that have a chance to actually hit, but you're doing "thrust-parry-riposte-parry-thrust" 100% of the time when you're engaged in melee. However, when you're attacking a creature who's actually 2 feet from where you aim, that creature will not and, in fact, cannot act and react the same way as if it were exactly where you were targeting. It won't flinch away from attacks, it can't parry them effectively, and the image provided by the spell mirrors the creature's actions exactly, so the attacker knows.
That abstraction does not work for ranged weapon attacks.