It seems that most things related to fighters are source of a great deal of dissent on these boards, and that anm optimization guide for fighters is'nt something we'll be seeing soon. Still, folks here have great ideads, and a lot of you seem to have extensive experience playing this class, probably with various styles.
Anyways, we have just begun the RoTRL AP, and I'm the BSF. I'd like to have help on my fighter build. Since fighters are pretty limited as to what they can do out of combot, of course I'd wish to at least shine in that area, being able to lay down the hurt on my ennemies, and protect the casters effectively. Having different combat options would'nt hurt either I guess.
My stats are as follow:
Lev. 1 Human male fighter
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 10
HP 12
Feats: Human: Power attack
1. Combat reflexes
Fighter bonus 1: Cleave
Here is some info about my tastes, and facts which might affect suitable options.
1. Books = PF only. All official Paizo PF stuff is ok. No 3.5 at all. DM might be convinced to add access to some 3rd party PF books sold here (now pushing for 101 Feats, if I can convince him that Human Adaptation should logically work for fighter bonus feats, it would add lots of room for trial and error as to the style I prefer).
2. I was aiming for a sword and board type, preferably Long or Bastard Sword & Heavy Shield, or a two-hander big hitter. I want a large knight-like weapon.
3. Rest of the party is composed of:
Human male Cleric of Pharasma, channels negative energy
Gnome male rogue
Human male arcane sorcerer
Human female fey sorcerer
Both sorcerers seem pretty blasty. Trying to convince them to buff me instead. Say they will do when they gain more spells, but they'll never be GODs.
4. GM seems pretty cheap. We hardly found any treasure yet (we just cleared a "prison" room, a bit bast a room with an angry-woman looking statue. I think treasure will be pretty scarce, and from his DM style (pretty old hardcore 2nd ed AD&D) I don't think we will be able to buy magic items much, other than potions, and maybe wands. If we do, they're probably going to be really rare and hard to come by, neccessiting extensive research to find a seller. All in all, I really can't garantee the availability of specific magic items at any point in the game.
Also, he enforces training for pretty much averything except hit dice, BaB, saves and ability increases, (we won't "automaticaly" gain stuff on leveling. Rather, we'll need to train on downtime for a bit, and even find a teacher if it's on a different path that what were used to. (Ex: Weapon focus to greater weapon focus or Weapon spec requires self training, no teacher required; but learning the initial weapon focus, or gaining an entirely new ability, like Whirlwind Attack will probably require tutelage). The same goes even for Sorcerers, who apparently need to train to develop their new spells (tough hopefully never with a teacher).
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Keep in mind that several of your statements lead me to suspect that a certain type of optimization is going to be hard to accomplish in your game.
With 2 sorcerors I'm going to assume that a) PC crafting will be minimal or focused on wands/wondrous items and DM play-style will preclude reliable access to magical gear such as magical falchions.
As a result you are probably going to want to specialize in a common two-handed weapon (two-handed sword) or go with bastard/longsword + light shield. Your DPR will suffer but reliable access to decent weapons is important. Light shield is important because TWF shield bashing with a heavy shield results in fearsome penalties.
TWF + Shield Bash + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization (pointy stick only) + lunge makes for a pretty good defender build. Load up on heavy armor and if possible boost your saves as much as possible via iron will and resistance items.
A more offensive strategy would be Two-Handed Sword focus/specialization + Step Up + Vital Strike Chain + Imp Crit + Crit effects. It's less potent than the falchion equivalent but like I said above relying on the DM to gift you with a frost holy falchion can be a bit of a crap shoot.
Honestly? With the feats you picked I would strongly suggest using a reach weapon. A Glaive or a Guisarme specifically. They're all two handed and benefit more from Cleave and Combat Reflexes.
Other than that invest in a spiked gauntlet so you can still threaten adjacent squares. People knock it but the Stand Still feat can help you keep enemies off your casters.
The ability to attack from 10 feet away with a 2h weapon (1.5xStr damage) can't be underestimated, especially once you start fighting large or larger enemies. Don't be caught in the hype of whirlwind attack, it's overrated. With Great Cleave you can do much the same thing and with a reach weapon it's pretty ridiculous. One of the benefits of Great Cleave is that it's a standard action, allowing you to stay mobile and optimize your position on the battlefield to threaten the most amount of enemies and milk more attacks of opportunity.
Personally I think if your DM is a stickler for tradition and perhaps likes a more realistic feel, he'll appreciate the polearm fighter. They may not seem as heroic as a greatsword but they were used often throughout history because in combat reach is just THAT big of a deal.
Honestly? With the feats you picked I would strongly suggest using a reach weapon. A Glaive or a Guisarme specifically. They're all two handed and benefit more from Cleave and Combat Reflexes.
Other than that invest in a spiked gauntlet so you can still threaten adjacent squares. People knock it but the Stand Still feat can help you keep enemies off your casters.
The ability to attack from 10 feet away with a 2h weapon (1.5xStr damage) can't be underestimated, especially once you start fighting large or larger enemies. Don't be caught in the hype of whirlwind attack, it's overrated. With Great Cleave you can do much the same thing and with a reach weapon it's pretty ridiculous. One of the benefits of Great Cleave is that it's a standard action, allowing you to stay mobile and optimize your position on the battlefield to threaten the most amount of enemies and milk more attacks of opportunity.
Personally I think if your DM is a stickler for tradition and perhaps likes a more realistic feel, he'll appreciate the polearm fighter. They may not seem as heroic as a greatsword but they were used often throughout history because in combat reach is just THAT big of a deal.
If you do this, combining trip with cleave can be very effective, and you have the intelligence for it. I designed a build that utalized trip and disarm and started with the same 3 feats.
People tend to say that Iron Will is a mandatory feat, but I don't really buy that. Its never bad though.
Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec are helpful. Like Iron will, lots of people think that fighters must take them, but I disagree. Not all builds need them, but they are very useful. They will increase your damage output by about enough to kill CR=lvl monsters 1/2 a round earlier than if you didn't have them. If you are going for max damage though, you will need them, but it will hamper your utility and you can do plenty of damage with just power attack and a 2 hander.
Talk with your rogue buddy and see if he wants to pick up teamwork feats in the advanced players guide playters if your GM will allow it. +2 to hit or an extra d6 from flanking are nice.
Thanks for all the input!
TWF + Shield Bash + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization (pointy stick only) + lunge makes for a pretty good defender build. Load up on heavy armor and if possible boost your saves as much as possible via iron will and resistance items.
This was the way I was initially planning to go. It seems to be a very feat intensive path, tough the payoff seems pretty interesting. Could it be worth it with a few combat maneuvers, or it's gonna end up as trying to do too much, and sucking at all? Also, does'nt this build require a bashing shield, doubly enchanted (for defense and offense), to really shine?
Honestly? With the feats you picked I would strongly suggest using a reach weapon. A Glaive or a Guisarme specifically. They're all two handed and benefit more from Cleave and Combat Reflexes.
Other than that invest in a spiked gauntlet so you can still threaten adjacent squares. People knock it but the Stand Still feat can help you keep enemies off your casters.
The ability to attack from 10 feet away with a 2h weapon (1.5xStr damage) can't be underestimated, especially once you start fighting large or larger enemies. Don't be caught in the hype of whirlwind attack, it's overrated. With Great Cleave you can do much the same thing and with a reach weapon it's pretty ridiculous. One of the benefits of Great Cleave is that it's a standard action, allowing you to stay mobile and optimize your position on the battlefield to threaten the most amount of enemies and milk more attacks of opportunity.
Personally I think if your DM is a stickler for tradition and perhaps likes a more realistic feel, he'll appreciate the polearm fighter. They may not seem as heroic as a greatsword but they were used often throughout history because in combat reach is just THAT big of a deal.
If you do this, combining trip with cleave can be very effective, and you have the intelligence for it. I designed a build that utalized trip and disarm and started with the same 3 feats.
Other path I had tough. Love the idea of tripping and disarming at range (reminds my of my old 3.0 Rogue/Lasher). Mixing combat maneuvers (like trip) with a reach weapon still seems like a great way to attain major battlefield control (also, a reach weapon with lunge seems to make Whirwind Attack worth it just for the heck of attacking the whole field, but maybe I'm missing something...). How is it on the damage side?
Talk with your rogue buddy and see if he wants to pick up teamwork feats in the advanced players guide playters if your GM will allow it. +2 to hit or an extra d6 from flanking are nice.
Sadly, the APG won't be allowed until it's official release (in what, august?). Else, I'm probably would've played one of those classes...
As for magic items, maybe I could take Master Craftman: Weapons. That should (hopefully) solve part of the problem.
Also, I believe this campaing (RoTRL) takes the characters to around 14th or 15th level. I believe the party will retire at this point, since I'm pretty sure we'll just start with a fresh AP after that. So optimization past that is'nt really in the plans.
Finally, what do people think of the "toy" feats? Like Dazzling display (ok, my Cha sucks...), Disruptive and Spellbreaker? Are they worth it, or just gimmicky?
Pole-arm style can be quite beneficial for you. Bastard sword is also a nice option - you can two-hand it until you pick up the proficiency.
One drawback to pole-arms is it looks like you're the only tank in your party and probably wouldn't be able to use that reach properly as often. Heavy advantage of course is when dealing with large creatures with reach.
Given the low level of healing in your group, preventing damage (to you or your allies) is a good idea as well. Disarming/Sundering/Tripping is good for that, as described above. Also Dodge/Shield Focus.
P.S. Your DM is probably not being a scrooge on the treasure, it builds slowly in Runelords, but it will come.
P.P.S. Runelords goes to about level 17.
Dazzling display isn't bad, but it isn't amazing either. I wish they'd make a feat that let you intimidate a single enemy as a swift action when you attack them. Physical damage characters already have a wonky action budget, making you use a full round to give people a -2 is meh.
Disruptive and Spellbreaker aren't bad, but I wouldn't take them until I ran out of feats that increased my damage/defense.
I don't know the RotRL AP very well, but if there are a lot of humans and humanoids then going trip is very worth it. If there's more monsters, especially of the huge or quadraped variety then it's likely not. You can't trip things more than one size category larger than you.
So beyond your feats that you have chosen, going melee with a reach weapon, just WF and WS feats for that weapon and the crit feats later on. Going 2HF leaves you with a lot more feats to play with than Archery/TWF/Sword and Board so take whatever looks fun. Don't miss out on must haves like Toughness and Dodge
Personally, I love Dazzling Display for rogues, bards, and barbarians, because they get other fear effects or like flat footed opponents. Especially when you have all 3, then it is amasing, everything runs from you, since fear effects progress, and then things die. Has the downside of being fear. With 2 sorcs in your party, it may be a good choice though, since it lowers saves. Probably better for the rogue to take, since he can then go for shattered defenses and make them flat footed as well.
Disruptive I like, and Spell Breaker I haven't seen used yet. Be careful with them, they don't work with reach. Neither does Step Up, annother feat I am a fan of. They specifically say the oponent must be adjacent.
IMO, don't waste 2 feats to get master craftsmen to make weapons. If your DM is hard set against you getting the gear you want, item crafting doensn't help much.
Also, trip is very good against other humanoids but very bad against monsters over CR10. After lvl 10, expect most monsters to be imune or have such high DCs that you can't do it. I don't know what RotRL has for high level foes, so I can't comment on if its a good choice or not.
If you have Combat Reflexes you really need to go with some kind of reach weapon. Without one it's rare to see even a single AoO a round. It'll also help against large creatures who would normally get to smack you as you approach them.
I like reach builds but as the only frontline fighter (unless the cleric is melee oriented- can't tell) the fighter is almost always going to be stuck in there. While you can do a fighting withdraw 5' step sometimes that's either impossible or you enemies have step-up. Having to bash with a spiked gauntlet (or weapon haft if you use houserules) results in a big decline in effectiveness because you are unlikely to have all those cool weapon focus/specialization/imp. crit feats on the spiked gauntlet.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Talk one of the sorcerors into having enlarge person as a spell and later as a wand. Enlarge person is a pretty awesome buff for a THF. Enlarge Person + Lunge + Step Up is full of win in terms of making the fighter really really sticky.
I like reach builds but as the only frontline fighter (unless the cleric is melee oriented- can't tell) the fighter is almost always going to be stuck in there. While you can do a fighting withdraw 5' step sometimes that's either impossible or you enemies have step-up. Having to bash with a spiked gauntlet (or weapon haft if you use houserules) results in a big decline in effectiveness because you are unlikely to have all those cool weapon focus/specialization/imp. crit feats on the spiked gauntlet.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Talk one of the sorcerors into having enlarge person as a spell and later as a wand. Enlarge person is a pretty awesome buff for a THF. Enlarge Person + Lunge + Step Up is full of win in terms of making the fighter really really sticky.
Lunge does not give you all the benefits of reach. Specifically, you cannot make AoO with lunge, since the lunge is only effective on your turn.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Actually it gives the effect of being large (regarding reach), not of a reach weapon. 6 Bab is actually a VERY small price to pay for such a powerful effect.
Actually it gives the effect of being large (regarding reach), not of a reach weapon. 6 Bab is actually a VERY small price to pay for such a powerful effect.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
No, it does not give you the effect of large. It increases your reach by 5. These are different, because large creatures with reach weapons can attack 15-20 ft away, while a medium creature with lunge and reach can attack 10-15 away.
No, it does not give you the effect of large. It increases your reach by 5. These are different, because large creatures with reach weapons can attack 15-20 ft away, while a medium creature with lunge and reach can attack 10-15 away.Actually it gives the effect of being large (regarding reach), not of a reach weapon. 6 Bab is actually a VERY small price to pay for such a powerful effect.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Large creature with a non-reach weapon. Better like this.
Lunge does not give you all the benefits of reach. Specifically, you cannot make AoO with lunge, since the lunge is only effective on your turn.I like reach builds but as the only frontline fighter (unless the cleric is melee oriented- can't tell) the fighter is almost always going to be stuck in there. While you can do a fighting withdraw 5' step sometimes that's either impossible or you enemies have step-up. Having to bash with a spiked gauntlet (or weapon haft if you use houserules) results in a big decline in effectiveness because you are unlikely to have all those cool weapon focus/specialization/imp. crit feats on the spiked gauntlet.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Talk one of the sorcerors into having enlarge person as a spell and later as a wand. Enlarge person is a pretty awesome buff for a THF. Enlarge Person + Lunge + Step Up is full of win in terms of making the fighter really really sticky.
What if you Ready the action? Then it's possible, no?
Sure, but that's not an AoO. It's using your normal action to perform an action later in the turn, not in addition to like an AoO is.
Although that might be a little fuzzy, cause Lunge says it only increase your reach until the end of your turn. Not sure you could actually use in during an AoO.
Interesting note, you can combine Lunge with a reach weapon in order to hit someone 15ft away.
Interesting note, you can combine Lunge with a reach weapon in order to hit someone 15ft away.
But not 5 ;)?
Mah arms are too short and mah head is too big.
This comment may get mixed reviews due to the nature of the material but Im gonna throw it out there in any means. I would suggest seeing if your DM would allow you to take the feats Martial Study and Martial Stance from Tome of Battle. Im not suggesting using the actual base classes provided in the book but rather taking the feats as a Fighter, using a reach weapon and taking Stand Still and Lunge as has been suggested already. Then at 6th level take feat Martial Study: Foehammer (its a good manuver for those pesky DR opponents) then take Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades at 10th level, which gives you the awesome ability of all opponents provoking AoO from a 5 ft step(which you can combine with your stand still feat), no enemy spellcaster is safe, and taking the Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane compounds this effect. With those feats and Thicket of Blades you are the true definition of a tank, protecting your compatriots while hindering, controlling, and damaging the enemy.
What if you Ready the action? Then it's possible, no?Lunge does not give you all the benefits of reach. Specifically, you cannot make AoO with lunge, since the lunge is only effective on your turn.I like reach builds but as the only frontline fighter (unless the cleric is melee oriented- can't tell) the fighter is almost always going to be stuck in there. While you can do a fighting withdraw 5' step sometimes that's either impossible or you enemies have step-up. Having to bash with a spiked gauntlet (or weapon haft if you use houserules) results in a big decline in effectiveness because you are unlikely to have all those cool weapon focus/specialization/imp. crit feats on the spiked gauntlet.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Talk one of the sorcerors into having enlarge person as a spell and later as a wand. Enlarge person is a pretty awesome buff for a THF. Enlarge Person + Lunge + Step Up is full of win in terms of making the fighter really really sticky.
Then it wouldn't be an Attack of Opportunity, it would be a readied action.
Dazzling display isn't bad, but it isn't amazing either. I wish they'd make a feat that let you intimidate a single enemy as a swift action when you attack them. Physical damage characters already have a wonky action budget, making you use a full round to give people a -2 is meh.
In Pathfinder Companion, : Cheliax - Empire of Devils, there's a feat that let you make an immediate intimidate check as a free action on somebody you hit while using power attack... Would that work for you? :-)
This comment may get mixed reviews due to the nature of the material but Im gonna throw it out there in any means. I would suggest seeing if your DM would allow you to take the feats Martial Study and Martial Stance from Tome of Battle. Im not suggesting using the actual base classes provided in the book but rather taking the feats as a Fighter, using a reach weapon and taking Stand Still and Lunge as has been suggested already. Then at 6th level take feat Martial Study: Foehammer (its a good manuver for those pesky DR opponents) then take Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades at 10th level, which gives you the awesome ability of all opponents provoking AoO from a 5 ft step(which you can combine with your stand still feat), no enemy spellcaster is safe, and taking the Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane compounds this effect. With those feats and Thicket of Blades you are the true definition of a tank, protecting your compatriots while hindering, controlling, and damaging the enemy.
Sadly, the DM was very clear on this point. No 3.5 allowed, at all. Only PF products. :(
Then it wouldn't be an Attack of Opportunity, it would be a readied action.What if you Ready the action? Then it's possible, no?Lunge does not give you all the benefits of reach. Specifically, you cannot make AoO with lunge, since the lunge is only effective on your turn.I like reach builds but as the only frontline fighter (unless the cleric is melee oriented- can't tell) the fighter is almost always going to be stuck in there. While you can do a fighting withdraw 5' step sometimes that's either impossible or you enemies have step-up. Having to bash with a spiked gauntlet (or weapon haft if you use houserules) results in a big decline in effectiveness because you are unlikely to have all those cool weapon focus/specialization/imp. crit feats on the spiked gauntlet.
Lunge gives you the effect of a reach weapon for a nominal penalty to your AC. I wish that the prerequisite for it wasn't so high (BAB +6) but it's an excellent choice to go along with your first iterative attack.
Talk one of the sorcerors into having enlarge person as a spell and later as a wand. Enlarge person is a pretty awesome buff for a THF. Enlarge Person + Lunge + Step Up is full of win in terms of making the fighter really really sticky.
What I said is, "I ready an action to AoO with lunge if the opponent moves in my threatened area and attack him normally later"
I wonder if that's legal.
How about:
lvl 1: Exotic wpn Urumi (from the Golarian book), Improved shield bash, 2wpn fighting
lvl 2: Combat reflexes
lvl 3: Stand still
Add in Step up, Shield focus, Lunge, the Shield mastery chain, The 2wpn fighting chain, and ranks of UMD (possibly even skill focus umd) for flavor.
It'll make you defensive yet still pretty aggressive. (Add a shield spike and the bashing enchant to your shield for more dpr.)
In Pathfinder Companion, : Cheliax - Empire of Devils, there's a feat that let you make an immediate intimidate check as a free action on somebody you hit while using power attack... Would that work for you? :-)Dazzling display isn't bad, but it isn't amazing either. I wish they'd make a feat that let you intimidate a single enemy as a swift action when you attack them. Physical damage characters already have a wonky action budget, making you use a full round to give people a -2 is meh.
YES!!!!!!!
What I said is, "I ready an action to AoO with lunge if the opponent moves in my threatened area and attack him normally later"
I wonder if that's legal.
Well you can't ready an AoO, you can ready an attack (standard action) to attack with lunge if it gets within 5 feet of your threatened area. In other words you say "if that guy gets within 5 feet of a square i threaten I'm going to lunge at him" yeah that's fine. But you can also perform a 5-ft step with a readied action, so you can ready an action to take a 5-ft step and attack. When you ready an action and it goes off your initiative is lowered to whenever you went, just before the action you were preparing against. You would then have reach (and -2 AC) until your next turn.
Is that the sort of thing you mean?
Sword and Board if my prefrence when it comes to fighters, I'm also going be starting a PF only game when the current campaign is concluded.
As for the weapon and shield if you were willing to deviate alittle you could go with perhaps a Earthbreaker and Klar then aquire the feat Thunder and Fang from book History of Ashes in the Curse of the Crimson Throne book.
Though if your deadset on using a sword old faithful the long sword or possible the Elven Curve blade may be something to look into.
Thanks for all your advice. After much consideration, I believe I'll go with the Sword & Board path, grabbing up a Bastard Sword to swing it two-handed against foes for which AC might be less of a factor (little risk of hitting me, or will hit me anyhow). Might carry a Glaive too, for that extra reach if needed. That's assuming I have good hopes of obtaining a Spiked Shield of Bashing +2/+2. I'll talk to the DM about that. If he confirms he doesn't allow magic items buying, I'll whip up something less item oriented.
In any case, I'm pretty sure the sorcerers will agree to at least cast Enlarge Person on me on a regular basis, so I should have at least a 10ft reach pretty much all the time.
Anyways, what do you think of this build up to now?
Ainslan's feat progression
1- Power Attack
1- Combat Reflexes
1- Cleave
2- Two-Weapon Fighting
3- Iron Will
4- Improved Shield Bash; Cleave -> EWP: Bastard Sword
5- Double Slice
6- Shield Slam
7- Improved Bullrush
8- Greater Bullrush
9- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10-
11- Shield Master
12- Two-Weapon Rend
13- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
14-
15-
Fill-in feats options:
- Disruptive
- Step-Up
- Stand Still
- Quick Draw
- Lunge
- Weapon focus: Bastard Sword
- Greater Weapon focus: Bastard Sword
- Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
- Leadership
I don't know if you can really do it now but, an Elf Fighter (or a human with EWP: Elven Curve Blade) deals a lot of damage. This is the build I have for a game I'm playing in (I'm an Elf but, if you're a Human you could make you're human feat EWP: Elven Curve Blade). Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes can be moved around that's just the way I took them. (sorry if someone else already suggested something like this)
1: Weapon Focus (Curve Blade)
B: Power Attack
B: Cleave
3: Great Cleave
B: Weapon Specialization (Curve Blade)
5: Combat Reflexes
B: Disruptive
7: Lunge
B: Improved Critical (Curve Blade)
9: Greater Weapon Focus (Curve Blade)
B: Spellbreaker
11: Standstill
B: Greater Weapon Specialization (Curve Blade)
13: Penetrating Strike
B: open
15: open
B: Greater Penetrating Strike
With an 18 strength when power attacking at 4th level you deal 1d10+14. At 20th level with a 20 strength you deal 1d10+31 and you have a 15-20x3 critical. With a 22 strength you deal 1d10+33 and have the same critical.