Hey everyone, I'm currently playing the Pathfinder adventure path Council of Thieves. The group consists of the DM, myself, and one other player who chose to play a Paladin. I decided to roll up a Rogue for myself. We've so far done a far bit of the first module without too much difficulty, the DM has been generous with providing ample healing pots. After one session, I'm about 3/4 the way to the 2nd level, however I'm not quite sure what route to take my character. As it stands now, my Rogue is TWFing with Kukris. Here are his stats:
Human
str:20
dex:16
con:14
int:13
wis:13
cha:12
Feats:
TWF
Double slice
Traits:
Armor Expert
Shadow Child
My original concept was using Acrobatics to flank with the Paladin to trigger SAs. In addition, I'd pump up UMD to provide magic support with scrolls, etc. I'm still relatively new to Pathfinder coming from 3rd ed., so I'm not quite sure which feats, talents would suit my Rogue best, especially operating with a single companion. I would like to continue on with the TWFing theme. Dazzling display + Shatter Def. looks promising, but it kinda looks like it might have a too iffy success rate to be worth it.
I'm curious what people here have to say. Thank you for your suggestions.
Both you and your Paladin friend might want to look at the Advanced Player's Guide playtest and the Teamwork feats listed in the back, there are some good ones there for flanking.
Also, tumbling to avoid Attacks of Opportunity is a lot harder in Pathfinder, so you may want to consider Skill Focus and Mobility. And if you already have Mobility, a few levels in Shadowdancer may be nice to give an alternate method for getting those sneak attacks off.
Strongly consider the shield-bash-based two-weapon fighting route. It's feat intensive, but very good.
Thanks for the responses. I hadn't thought about a 2h Rogue previously, but I've already started with a TWF Rogue. From both responses, it sounds like improving mobility is a good bet. I'll need to take a closer look at the shield slam tree as well. Any advice regarding Rogue Talents?
Take Fast Stealth and Surprise Attack, ASAP. You'll be able to stealth-move at your move rate without penalty, and get sneak attack on anyone in the surprise round, which will certainly happen.
You'll want to flank the paladin when you can, and being fast-sneaky will help all the way to 20th level.
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Take Fast Stealth and Surprise Attack, ASAP. You'll be able to stealth-move at your move rate without penalty, and get sneak attack on anyone in the surprise round, which will certainly happen.
You'll want to flank the paladin when you can, and being fast-sneaky will help all the way to 20th level.
These are not Pathfinder feats.
While pathfinder is technically compatible with 3.5 material, many people choose to disallow any such sources, due to the massive power creep and general unbalanced nature of the material. I have no idea what these feats do or where they are from, but they are not Pathfinder feats. You need to mention this fact when recommending such feats.
Also, why would you take a feat that lets you sneak attack in a surprise round? You can already do that, as long as you are within 30 feet and they have not acted in the surprise round already. In fact, if you beat initiative and they did not go in surprise, you can sneak attack them both rounds, during the surprise round and in the first round before they have gone. It just seems like Improved Initiative would be better.
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Max out your Use Magic Device skill, this way you can use wands in a pinch. I know most people would consider it to be obvious, but I have never been surprised at the number of people who forget what shouldn't be forgotten.
This.
With a paladin you should be pretty solid on healing (my group of four has only a paladin for healing and does very well), but you may want the additional kick of the occasional arcane wand or scroll you find. With only two of you, you're going to find versatility critical.
If you want to go the TWF path I would not waste a feat on gaining a Martial Weapon Proficiency for Kukris. Personally I would either dual wield Shortswords and use the feat for something else, or dual wield a Rapier and a Shortsword. The crit chance on Shortswords may not be as high, but with a Rogue, your primary damage is going to come from Sneak Attack.
Improved Initiative is good for getting the jump on enemies who will be flat-footed at the beginning of combat.
You shouldn't have too much trouble getting into flanking positions but you might want to invest a few feats into a backup plan in case you can't get a good flanking position, or in the chance you end up fighting someone on your own. I have been looking at the Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses combo as well lately. It could be pretty devastating but in order to have much of a success rate you are going to want to max out Intimidate as well as have a decent CHA score but to make it really effective you are going to have to take the Skill Focus (Intimidate) feat and possibly the Persuasive feat as well. If you are willing to invest that much it could be really devastating. If not you might want to take an alternate feat path, perhaps going for Improved Feint and Greater Feint.
As for Rogue Talents it depends on the type of Rogue you want to play and the types of encounters you will be facing along the way. If you want to be very Stealthy than Fast Sneak is awesome, especially if you ever go into Shadowdancer and gain HiPS. If you intend to be more focused on brutal combat (Flanking and Feinting, or Intimidating) than I would say use your talents to pick up things that will help you in a fight. I would definitely consider getting the Combat Trick and Weapon Training talents. Then maybe Resiliency if you intend to go straight Rogue, just in case your Palidin buddy doesn't heal you quite in time. Surprise Attack is also a good one.
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@ BobChuck:
They are Pathfinder Rogue Talents, read the PF Rogue class features. Fast Stealth allows the Rogue to use Stealth at his full speed rather than only half speed. Surprise Attack means that all enemies are considered flat-footed to the Rogue in a surprise round even if they have already acted.
Also, since you are human you are going to want to pay to have Darkvision made permanent on your character. Dim light and darkness grant opponents concealment. Any concealment prevents you from dealing SA damage. It will cost 5000 GP, as per the Permanency spell.
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tactics wise:
Use stealth and diplomacy to your advantage. There are a bunch of "talky" encounters in the first couple of adventures...if you play up the "We're really good listeners" role, it'll get you out of a jam.
Cheat against the bad guys. I know the paladin can't use poison, but that doesn't mean you can't. Strike from stealth whenever possible, and try to get the paladin in on those surprise round take-downs. Perhaps using nonlethal damage would make it an easier sell.
As everyone has said: flank whenever possible, especially if the Paladin can get right in the thick of things. Let him take the hits, and dance around the baddies stabbing all the way.
With a 20 str, you won't need to worry about Weapon Finesse, so Fast Stealth, Surprise Attacks, Bleeding Attack, and possibly Weapon Training or Combat Trick will be nice. Fast Stealth is AWESOME from 2-20, especially if you take Skill Mastery as your 12th lvl Advanced Talent (Imp Evasion should always be 10th lvl choice)
Finally, don't neglect your Knowledge Local or Use Magic Device skills...they will be invaluable in the path.
-t
Fast Stealth is AWESOME from 2-20, especially if you take Skill Mastery as your 12th lvl Advanced Talent
I didn't think you could take 10 on opposed skill checks. I can't find a rule that says that so I may very well be wrong on that point though. Out of curiosity how does taking 10 on Stealth go for you? Are the results much better than rolling?
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I'd pick up a backup 2-handed weapon anyway, in case you run into something with DR, especially something you can't SA, like a construct. You should also consider alternate-metal versions of your kukris to overcome metal-based DR, when you can afford them.
I agree that with so few people, you should definitely use roleplay and social skills to try to avoid fights when you can, or at least allow you a chance to position yourselves to advantage against your foes. As you advance to low-mid levels, you might also consider expendable hirelings to provide a bit of additional muscle (perhaps fighting defensively and doing aid another actions to boost your attacks). I'd probably have the paladin do the hiring.
Another option to consider is multiclassing into a second class. A single level of sorcerer won't help your combat abilities directly, but it will give you a couple tricks for when you face enemies that SA won't work well on, and allow you easier use of arcane-based items. Cleric is another option. Taking levels in a martial class like fighter is a third option, which would play in well with your good strength, but since your companion is also a martially-focused type, having better arcane or divine support might be better. I'd probably see what you guys find you are needing as the campaign progresses to determine what, if any, secondary class you should take.
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Fast Stealth is AWESOME from 2-20, especially if you take Skill Mastery as your 12th lvl Advanced TalentI didn't think you could take 10 on opposed skill checks. I can't find a rule that says that so I may very well be wrong on that point though. Out of curiosity how does taking 10 on Stealth go for you? Are the results much better than rolling?
Let me just say: not having to roll was great!
Just finished up a SD game, playing straight rogue. Being able to just declare stealth40 or perception 40 was great. It sped the game up, made it easier to guess "can he see that baddy? Can they find/bypass this trap?"
Also, take 10 on UMD is just fantastic!
-t
With the low Cha, I would probably stay away from dazzling display unless you want to go heavy into it with skill focus and intimidating prowess. Demoralize has served me well in games, and AoE debuffs are nice, but it has some issues with versatility, as it is a fear effect. Also, one of the best benefits, the -2 to saves, your party wont be using much, so it wont benefit you that much until the higher levels.
Edit: Also highly agree with the teamwork feats if the Paladin agrees. +2 more to hit when flanking or an extra d6 precision damage is nice.
I'd pick up a backup 2-handed weapon anyway, in case you run into something with DR, especially something you can't SA, like a construct.
This is a good suggestion, but in the new PF rules constructs aren't necessarily immune to Sneak Attack, neither are undead. I think Elementals and things without anatomy of any kind are the only things auto-immune to SA, other than that it is a case by case thing based on their abilities in the Bestiary.
Let me just say: not having to roll was great!
Just finished up a SD game, playing straight rogue. Being able to just declare stealth40 or perception 40 was great. It sped the game up, made it easier to guess "can he see that baddy? Can they find/bypass this trap?"
Also, take 10 on UMD is just fantastic!
-t
Yeah, I never thought about taking Stealth as one of the Skill Mastery skills though. That is a good idea. I had considered taking Perception, one awesome thing about that is it allows you to take 10 on Perception even while distracted - IE: Asleep. Being a light sleeper could be really handy if someone is trying to sneak into the party’s camp at night.
With the low Cha, I would probably stay away from dazzling display unless you want to go heavy into it with skill focus and intimidating prowess. Demoralize has served me well in games, and AoE debuffs are nice, but it has some issues with versatility, as it is a fear effect. Also, one of the best benefits, the -2 to saves, your party wont be using much, so it wont benefit you that much until the higher levels.
However, when you couple all that with Shatter Defense it is a great way to get full attacks (minus the first attack of the round) adding Sneak Attack even if you get stuck without a flanking partner. But you bring up a good point about it being a fear effect. How often this would be helpful is highly dependent on the DM and style of the campaign.
Edit: Also highly agree with the teamwork feats if the Paladin agrees. +2 more to hit when flanking or an extra d6 precision damage is nice.
I looked at these today. I would highly recommend both of those feats for both members of your party. That would make you a really dangerous flanking pair and with only two of you it is likely you will need that extra benefit in working together.
If you want to go the TWF path I would not waste a feat on gaining a Martial Weapon Proficiency for Kukris.
Ooo...yeah... For some reason I thought Kukris were on the Rogue standard weapon list. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll need to adjust my PC accordingly.
The teamwork feats sound interesting, I'll need to bring them up next session.