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Brawler
BAB: full
High Save: Fortitude
Low Saves: Reflex/ Will
Skills: 4+int) Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Perception, Perfusion, Sense motive, Slight of hand, Stealth, Survival
Alignment: Any
Proficiency: All Simple Weapons and Brass Knuckles, Light Armor, Medium Armor, no shields
(Brass Knuckles: Exotic Weapon, bludgeoning, light one handed, 1d4 damage x2 crit, 1lb, 1gp, Special- stacks with unarmed damage)
Hit Dice 1d10
Level Special
1. Knockout Punch (1), Catch of Guard, Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4)
2. Brute Strength
3. Mob Defense +1
4. Brute Strength
5. Blood Drunk (1)
6. Knockout punch (2), Brute Strength, Mob Defense +2
7. Damage Reduction 1/-
8. Brute Strength, Unarmed attack (2d4)
9. Mob Defense +3
10. Brute Strength, Damage Reduction 2/-
11. Blood Drunk (2)
12. Knockout Punch (3), Brute Strength, Mob Defense +4
13. Damage Reduction 3/-
14. Brute Strength
15. Mob Defense +5, unarmed attack (3d4)
16. Brute Strength, Damage Reduction 4/-
17. Blood Drunk (3)
18. Knockout Punch (4), Brute Strength, Mob Defense +6
19. Damage Reduction 5/-
20. Deadly Punch, Brute Strength
Knockout Punch: this ability functions as stunning fist but takes a full round action to perform, at 6th level the Brawler can perform a free bull rush attempt without needing to move as part of there Knockout Punch, At 12th level on a successful Knockout Punch the target is knocked unconscious for 1d4 rounds, At 18th level on a successful Knockout Punch the Brawler deals double damage.
Catch of Guard: the Brawler gains this as a free feat
Mob Defense: the brawler gains a moral bonus to ac when ever he is adjacent to more than one foe.
Blood Drunk: the Brawler gains a bonus to attack and damage based on the amount of damage he has taken, this bonus increases as they level. Blood Drunk (1) 25% loss of HP +1, 50% loss of HP +2, 75% loss of HP +3 100% loss of HP +4, Blood Drunk (2) 25% loss Of HP +2, 50% loss of HP +4, 75% loss of HP +6, 100% loss of HP +8, Blood Drunk (3) 25% loss of HP +4, 50% loss of HP +8, 75% loss of Hp +12, 100% loss of HP +16
Damage Reduction: same as Barbarian
Deadly Punch: If a Knockout punch is successful the foe must make a new fortitude save or die, DC= 10+ ½ Brawlers level+ Brawlers wisdom modifier.
Brute Strength:
(Bonus Feats) Agile Maneuvers, Deflect Arrows, Diehard, Endurance, Fleet, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improvised Weapon Mastery, Snatch Arrows, Throw Anything, Toughness, (Improved Disarm- the Brawler does not need to meet the prerequisites to take this)
Heavy Throw:
This ability adds +10 to the range of all thrown weapons (including improvised weapons)
This ability may be taken up to 3 times.
Hammer Fist:
Using both hands the Brawler may add 1.5 times his strength modifier to his unarmed attack.
Iron Stomach:
Gain Immunity to all ingested poisons and toxins.
Powerful Build:
Gain a +1 to CMB and CMD, this ability may be taken up to 3 times.
Reckless Attack:
As a standard action take a -1 to AC and gain a +2 to attack, this bonus improves an additional -1/+2 every 4 levels, this ability does not stack with the Power Attack Feat.
Street Wise:
Gain a +2 to Diplomacy and Knowledge (local)
Superior Unarmed Attack:
Count as 4 levels higher to determine unarmed damage.
Tenacity:
Gain a +3 to HP, this ability may be taken as many times as you wish.
Feign Proficiency:
The Brawler reduces non-proficiency penalties to -2, the Brawler must be 4th level to take this ability.
Improved Damage Reduction:
Increase the Brawlers Damage Reduction by 1/-, this ability may be taken up to 3 times. The Brawler must be 8th level to take this feat.
Ferocity:
You remain conscious and can continue fighting even if your HP is below 0; you are still staggered and lose 1 Hp each round. You still die when you reach a negative HP equal to your Constitution. This ability requires the Brawler to have Diehard.
Greater Ferocity:
The Brawler doubles his Constitution to determine when he dies by negative HP. This ability requires Ferocity.
Any thoughts would be appreciated, sorry for the long post.
Okay. A small input. Defensive combat training gives you your level when you are calculating your CMD. So in essence, as I see it, it's a feat you don't need to take, since you have full BaB.
Furthermore it's a bit unclear to me what gain from Brute Strength. I suppose it's the list of abilities you can choose from, but I may be dense (highly possible, if you ask my friends, so please don't ;-) ). You might want to make that more clear.
Otherwise it looks like a good brawler... errr... or something :-)
Okay. A small input. Defensive combat training gives you your level when you are calculating your CMD. So in essence, as I see it, it's a feat you don't need to take, since you have full BaB.
Furthermore it's a bit unclear to me what gain from Brute Strength. I suppose it's the list of abilities you can choose from, but I may be dense (highly possible, if you ask my friends, so please don't ;-) ). You might want to make that more clear.
Otherwise it looks like a good brawler... errr... or something :-)
My mistake, sorry about the Defensive combat training, and the Brute Strength ability is the list of ability's you get to chose from
this should be my finished work
thanks to everyone who helps out
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I really like this concept. I would possibly add the alignment restriction of any chaotic...kinda like an anit-monk. The only problem i can see with this is scaling with level (unless i missed something). A monk has more attacks that do more damage per attack, etc.
I love the flavor and with a little tweaking, i could see it being very viable.
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OK i see where unarmed damage is scaling, but to me it seems a little bit weak in comparison to other classes...maybe have it cap at 2d8 (+ your 1d4 for brass knuckles)...I'm assuming that TWF feats and whatnot would be able to bring attacks around up some (wasn't thinking), so yeah my only complaint would be the sub-par UA damage.
I really like this concept. I would possibly add the alignment restriction of any chaotic...kinda like an anit-monk. The only problem i can see with this is scaling with level (unless i missed something). A monk has more attacks that do more damage per attack, etc.
I love the flavor and with a little tweaking, i could see it being very viable.
i think i would be ok with making the class any chaotic,
about the damage i would say you should remember that with the brass knuckles the Brawler starts out with 2d4 unarmed damage.|
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I really like this concept. I would possibly add the alignment restriction of any chaotic...kinda like an anit-monk. The only problem i can see with this is scaling with level (unless i missed something). A monk has more attacks that do more damage per attack, etc.
I love the flavor and with a little tweaking, i could see it being very viable.
i think i would be ok with making the class any chaotic,
about the damage i would say you should remember that with the brass knuckles the Brawler starts out with 2d4 unarmed damage.
See my additional post :D...looked over the increase in UA damage. I still think it's a bit weak...i would increase incrementally and bring it up to 4d4 at the time the monk starts doing 2d10 damage. (so 4d4+1d4 for knuckles)
See my additional post :D...looked over the increase in UA damage. I still think it's a bit weak...i would increase incrementally and bring it up to 4d4 at the time the monk starts doing 2d10 damage. (so 4d4+1d4 for knuckles)I really like this concept. I would possibly add the alignment restriction of any chaotic...kinda like an anit-monk. The only problem i can see with this is scaling with level (unless i missed something). A monk has more attacks that do more damage per attack, etc.
I love the flavor and with a little tweaking, i could see it being very viable.
i think i would be ok with making the class any chaotic,
about the damage i would say you should remember that with the brass knuckles the Brawler starts out with 2d4 unarmed damage.
sorry didnt see your second post, i will test out a higher unarmed damage with my group and see how it works.
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sorry didnt see your second post, i will test out a higher unarmed damage with my group and see how it works.See my additional post :D...looked over the increase in UA damage. I still think it's a bit weak...i would increase incrementally and bring it up to 4d4 at the time the monk starts doing 2d10 damage. (so 4d4+1d4 for knuckles)I really like this concept. I would possibly add the alignment restriction of any chaotic...kinda like an anit-monk. The only problem i can see with this is scaling with level (unless i missed something). A monk has more attacks that do more damage per attack, etc.
I love the flavor and with a little tweaking, i could see it being very viable.
i think i would be ok with making the class any chaotic,
about the damage i would say you should remember that with the brass knuckles the Brawler starts out with 2d4 unarmed damage.
Awesome! make sure you post it here, i would really like to give this a whirl...just want something "final" to bring to my DM.
if you like the class but feel it needs some tweeking, go ahead and use it and change anything you feel needs changed,
try an increase of 1d4 unarmed every 5 levels
bump
would any one say that any of these ability's are over powered or broken.
or if the class feels like its missing anything.
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would any one say that any of these ability's are over powered or broken.
or if the class feels like its missing anything.
After reading through it and comparing it to the monk and barbarian (which is what this seems to be a mix of) i would change blood drunk from amount of damage received by the player to amount of damage dealt by the player or rename it and make it into a flat +x at certain level increments.
I say this because while the class has the feel of the barbarian, there's no rage. It also has the feel of the monk, but no ki abilites or other supernatural type abilities.
Also a class ability that relies on the character taking damage when it isn't intended to be a "tank" class is very iffy. I would also think about adding TWF, ITWF, and GTWF as class feats that can be taken w/out prequisites, putting the number of attacks on par with the monk.
EDIT: how will overcoming DR and the like be achieved with the class? will they have to get magic brass knuckles? And if so will only the brass knuckle damage bypass DR or will the improved unarmed strike damage bypass as well?
EDIT (part deux): when i envision the class i think of that boxer guy steve off of Tekken 5 (or maybe 4), so improved feint, dodge, etc. might be worthwhile to have as brute force abilities or maybe finesse abilities that are unlocked at level 10 as they get more learned in the ways of unarmed combat? just a thought :D...like i said, i love the class concept, and would definitely play this/allow this in my campaigns.
Might I suggest rather than making Brass Knuckles weapons that add 1d4 to unarmed strikes [because then a Monk could be just as good with them and I'm sure some Monks would pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (brass knuckles) at 3rd level] giving the Brawler a special ability that lets his unarmed strike damage stack with gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, punching daggers, brass knuckles, and light or 1 handed improvised weapons? The light and 1 handed improvised weapons could even be a brute strength thing rather than something they get off the bat (because they get the catch off-guard for free that means they would deal unarmed damage plus whatever the improvised weapon does and the enemy is flat-footed making a Rogue/Brawler a good build for multi-classing) and if you do it as a brute strength thing you could even add another 1 that lets them add their unarmed strike damage to 2 handed improvised weapons but they'd have to have the light and 1 handed brute strength ability. If you do that you might also want to allow the magical properties of the weapon being used to carry over to the Brawlers fists so he can deal with damage reduction and things like that.
I mean ya the improvised weapon thing is something a Drunken Master gets but I'm assuming the Brawler is anything from a street/bar fighter to a someone using 2 katars (punching daggers) or a set of claws (like Vega). If you do this though I would suggest changing the alignment to any non-lawful or any-chaotic (so a Monk can't simply take a dip and add weapon damage to his unarmed strike)
Also might I suggest this for Unarmed Strike damage:
1st-3rd: 1d4
4th-7th: 1d6
8th-11th: 1d8
12th-15th: 1d10
16th-20th: 2d6
You're only doing the unarmed strike damage of a 15th level Monk but you're adding 1d3 or 1d4 (I'm sure most people won't use gauntlets but you never know).
You might also add that a Brawler can add it's unarmed strike damage to any natural attacks it can make if you go with it adding damage to the weapons I listed above.
sorry for the bump but i wanted to get some updated thoughts of the class, just want to get peoples opinions and feelings on my class idea.
again sorry for the bump.
question? does this class feel like a good class to play a gladiator?
Why don't you just progress the damage like a monk?
i wanted the monk to still be the unarmed master you know i didn't want to steal their thunder.
what i really wanted was an unarmed combat class but i didn't want people to say "why play the monk when i have the brawler" that's pretty much the way i felt about it.
Well the monks claim to faim really isnt the fist damage its everything that he can do combined. Awesome unarmored AC, good saves tons of abilitys etc. Just taking one aspect of the monk isn't really stealing his thunder... plus your attacks will never be magical/lawful/adamantite.
I have wanted a class like this for a long time but not just a pugalist... more of an unarmed striker and grappler. He's a mix of a martial artist, not monk, and barbarian.
well the way i have it set up right now works well for my gaming group but if you have any wants to change the unarmed damage feel free i have no problem with someone altering my class to fit there feel better.
if i were to add improved feign proficiency to the brawlers Brute Strength list would it be safe to assume that the most i could reduce the penalty to is -1 otherwise the class would have no penalty to using any weapon.
Did you not read my suggestion that a Brawler should be able to add "punching weapon" or natural attack damage to their unarmed strikes rather than making a weapon that adds damage to it? A Monk that want's higher unarmed damage is going to pick up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency or take a 1 level dip into Brawler and then just not care at all about the higher levels.
Overall it seems like an interesting idea to me. Am not done reading it all but,
a Brawler should be able to add "punching weapon" or natural attack damage to their unarmed strikes rather than making a weapon that adds damage to it? A Monk that want's higher unarmed damage is going to pick up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency or take a 1 level dip into Brawler and then just not care at all about the higher levels.
I agree with, that's the first thing that I saw.
I like this class. It's ... unique, IMO.
To keep it short and sweet I'm just going to point out things that might need some clarification/etc in further revisions, etc.
*Knockout Punch - at level 1 although it says "like stunning fist" you should probably just spell it out very clearly for avoiding confusion.
*HD - I'd consider d12, especially given how that "blood drunk" relies on their % of current hp. I, actually, really, REALLY like that mechanic. It's a lot more crunchy than other classes, but so what? It's just a fun thing. You've got to re-calculate your thresholds every level for the extra HP's, but - again - so what? I think it's a cool idea, so I'll say leave it as it stands (to counter the suggestion of changing it somehow).
*Blood Drunk - what the hell does 100% damage mean? Aren't you, you know - unconscious and/or dieing by then???
*Why Key Deadly Punch off of Wisdom? I'd expect a class built like this to be keyed off of Str ... just saying. totally NOT a monk here - the concept's more like vicious fighter ... why throw Wisdom in there suddenly? Even the Monk's quivering palm gets keyed off a primary ability for him - the Wis (which does many things for that class). But ... what is Wis doing for this guy? I doesn't fit, IMO.
*Tenacity ... is pathetic. Really, if you want to make an option for adding HP's to him, have it work like Toughness - give a +x/level bonus with this. Like say +1/level (effect of an Improved Toughness feat, or a +2 con bonus for HP calculations only). It's under the heading of his "class feature" so it should be something significant, not something left by the way side by the PF design team in their first draft (ie: look at how the Toughness feat currently works and compare this "class feature" to it).
*current unarmed damage is .... problematic. Monks have FAR more that they bring to the table rather than just unarmed damage. This class gets NOTHING even close. I think it'd be entirely fair to take the unarmed damage levels and progress them something like so: 1d6; 2d6; 2d8. Something needs to happen to beef up the unarmed attack damage as that's the whole focus of the class. At 3d4, that's not hangin' and bangin' w/the other melee guys ... not even a little. {maybe even drop 3d8 at the top end - seriously, they are NOT doing the damage output of the other melee types at all ... it seems like the UA *is* their only means of competition from what you've built so far.)
Overall I like it, but I see a few mechanical issues you *might* want to tweak around a bit.
AC could well be another pit-fall of this guy. Maybe some sort of "brute strength" option that will offer an increasing/scaling AC bonus?
Maybe a counter-punching option?
I like this class. It's ... unique, IMO.
To keep it short and sweet I'm just going to point out things that might need some clarification/etc in further revisions, etc.
*Knockout Punch - at level 1 although it says "like stunning fist" you should probably just spell it out very clearly for avoiding confusion.
*HD - I'd consider d12, especially given how that "blood drunk" relies on their % of current hp. I, actually, really, REALLY like that mechanic. It's a lot more crunchy than other classes, but so what? It's just a fun thing. You've got to re-calculate your thresholds every level for the extra HP's, but - again - so what? I think it's a cool idea, so I'll say leave it as it stands (to counter the suggestion of changing it somehow).
*Blood Drunk - what the hell does 100% damage mean? Aren't you, you know - unconscious and/or dieing by then???
*Why Key Deadly Punch off of Wisdom? I'd expect a class built like this to be keyed off of Str ... just saying. totally NOT a monk here - the concept's more like vicious fighter ... why throw Wisdom in there suddenly? Even the Monk's quivering palm gets keyed off a primary ability for him - the Wis (which does many things for that class). But ... what is Wis doing for this guy? I doesn't fit, IMO.
*Tenacity ... is pathetic. Really, if you want to make an option for adding HP's to him, have it work like Toughness - give a +x/level bonus with this. Like say +1/level (effect of an Improved Toughness feat, or a +2 con bonus for HP calculations only). It's under the heading of his "class feature" so it should be something significant, not something left by the way side by the PF design team in their first draft (ie: look at how the Toughness feat currently works and compare this "class feature" to it).
*current unarmed damage is .... problematic. Monks have FAR more that they bring to the table rather than just unarmed damage. This class gets NOTHING even close. I think it'd be entirely fair to take the unarmed damage levels and progress them something like so:...
i think i will change the HD to d12 i think it will work better.
there were a few reasons i made Blood Drunk run to 100% hp one reason was i wanted to give a small boost to orcs/half-orcs who take the class this would give them the bonus before they drop, i also wanted to give people a nice benefit of taking die hard but the big reason was because of the 2 final brute strength abilities.i chose to give the brawler some abilities based around wisdom for a few reasons, one it is my favorite non physical ability score but it is also there to help round out the class, i didn't want this class to be all physical i want people who played a Brawler to play well rounded characters.
the whole point of tenacity it basically to bring back the 3.0/3.5 toughness feat something that gave a small bonus but you could take as often as you want.
the reason i chose to give them a smaller unarmed damage was to give the class more room for other abilities plus if you take into account the brass knuckles they can use they are doing 4d4 damage in the end i think this is a fair amount of damage considering everything else they get though i do think it does make more sense that they should be able to add any punching weapon to there unarmed damage so consider that changed.
i think i will make the alignment any non lawful just to keep the monk out.
i think i will add the unarmed damage to improvised weapons but should they just get it as a bonus or should it be added to the Brute Strength list so you could choose weather or not to have it.
i think i will add the unarmed damage to improvised weapons but should they just get it as a bonus or should it be added to the Brute Strength list so you could choose weather or not to have it.
The more I think about it I'd make it a Brute Strength ability because if people are using 3.5 sources and playing it will take away from the Drunken Master so I'd make it Brute Strength. Start with 1 that lets you add it to light and one handed improvised weapons and then allow them to get a better version at 8th level or so that lets them add it to 2 handed improvised weapons. I still say you should up the unarmed damage to something like this: 1st-3rd: 1d4, 4th-7th: 1d6, 8th-11th: 1d8, 12th-15th: 1d10, 16th-20th: 2d6.
Also I'd make an ability that allows magical properties of their weapon to apply to their unarmed attacks so they can keep up with other melee fighters. And I have to say I agree with The Speaker in Dreams that Deadly Punch should be based off something other than Wisdom, yes they'll be slightly more "well rounded" if they have to rely on a mental ability score but then you have a character relying on Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom... sounds like a Monk (or possibly an Inquisitor). I think you should key it off of Constitution or Strength so that the class doesn't have to worry about 4 ability scores but if they want to be well rounded they can.
the whole point of tenacity it basically to bring back the 3.0/3.5 toughness feat something that gave a small bonus but you could take as often as you want.
Again - let me just point out the fundamental change (and VAST improvement) made in PF design. Old 3.x was +3 hp/feat, period. HP's are ablative (ie: they disappear and are useful only the one time in any given combat).
New design = +3 hp at first level, then adding in another +1/each level beyond 3rd (ie: +1 hp/level gained).
So, overall, the new Toughness is a scaling benefit that increases with level. The old is a flat benefit that give a minimal return for the investment of a feat.
I think the idea of a "class feature" for granting more HP's to this class is fantastic, and fitting. I think making that class feature even LESS functional/beneficial than an existing Feat is a terrible direction to take. That said, granting the class an additional +1 each time they take this class feature would actually emphasize the "class feature" power level of it, since it's at least equal to the feat, and can stack with other selections of this same ability, AND the feat as well (where most other classes are locked into the feat itself and that's about it).
Edit: on the Wis thing ... there's literally no reason, class-based for this class to pick up Wisdom to a high degree. Making their "capstone" ability focused upon it when NOTHING else of the class really utilizes it is a nerf to the capstone. How people play is different from how the class is designed. Keep in mind, the more you make this guy pull in different directions, the more closely it resembles a monk. Personally, since you're going with a different class build and focus, emphasize what's different vs. what's similar. Right now, the only thing I see in common with the Monk is the unarmed damage, and, IMO, that's a GOOD thing. At most, since the core concept is unarmed fighter, maybe some sort of AC bonus would be nice to see in there - probably as a Brute Strength option (even your class options have a tone of Strength is key for this class), though - you might want to change the name of Brute Strength itself (maybe turn it into an option itself somehow?) into something that is more generally applied to unarmed combat as a whole.
Edit #2: Skill list - Some things just don't belong there.
Acrobatics - sure, movement is key, especially in close-ranged fighting styles.
Appraise - what? why's this here? How does unarmed combat lend to market-place dealings and estimating the value of finely crafted artistic items, jewelery, and such?
Bluff - fine. Good one, IMO, probably many LIVE by the bluff, honestly, bouncers, security, etc. This one fits well, IMO. Maybe you could even make a Brute Strength option keyed off of this somehow?
Craft - sure. Everyone's got a hobby.
Diplomacy - wait, why is the guy that is skilled and most interested in pummeling people with his bare digits an expert politician?
Disguise - ??? Really? I ... can't even imagine. Dodging the local poparatzzi after his latest prize-fight?
Escape Artist - ??? I got nothing on this. More Monk than Brawler, IMO. The monk's the finesse fighter, skilled and trained in his maneuverability, etc. A brawler's more a brute. Tie him up and he's more likely to snap the ropes rather than twist out of them (Ooo! Another Brute Force option here?)
Heal - *meh* ok. sure, probably has to lick his own wounds a lot. Not too big an issue with that, really. {maybe you can make a Brute Strength option focused around the "wraps" that get put around boxers hands and such? Maybe use that vs. brass knuckles as a class feature? - allow them to enchant their wraps, etc, as if they were manufactured weapons? Or ... they "enchant" but only for the Brawler when using them - kind of like the Paladin's weapon stuff?}
Intimidate - absolutely!
Knowledge (local) - absolutely! All about the "scene on the ground" this class, IMO.
Perception - given their combat preference, maybe they need this even more than Fighter's do.
Perfusion - ??? What? Did you mean "Profession"? That makes sense.
Sense motive - yes. Again, the in-close style just really needs it, IMO.
Slight of hand - why? They're mostly just using their fists in the first place. What would they need this skill at all for?
Stealth - I don't see it for a brawler. It's useful, but doesn't fit, IMO. They could still drop sp in it like normal, but the default brawler isn't a sneak-freak. It's more in your face, IMO. This is more a monk-skill, IMO, for combat types anyway, not this brawler concept.
Survival - why? I mean ... it's kind of minor, but why? Brawler seems more like an "urban" class to me. Survival seems more wilderness, so ... yeah, thematic fit doesn't mesh with me.
This class should probably have Climb and Swim on the list, though (not sure why they were omitted).
I agree on nearly all of that except possibly escape artist. It's likely that a brawler might rely more on dexterity than strength. There are brawlers like people in the UFC (I hate mma by the way) and then there are brawlers like Tony Jaa who may have some "monk" tendencies (depending on the movie) but in the end they are more dexterous than strong.
I still say allow any "punching type weapon" to be added to unarmed strikes and allow the enchantment from the weapon to apply to the unarmed strike damage as well. That makes them a little more expensive than a monk but they can have flaming burst spiked gauntlets and idk wraith strike punching daggers.
I agree on nearly all of that except possibly escape artist. It's likely that a brawler might rely more on dexterity than strength. There are brawlers like people in the UFC (I hate mma by the way) and then there are brawlers like Tony Jaa who may have some "monk" tendencies (depending on the movie) but in the end they are more dexterous than strong.
I still say allow any "punching type weapon" to be added to unarmed strikes and allow the enchantment from the weapon to apply to the unarmed strike damage as well. That makes them a little more expensive than a monk but they can have flaming burst spiked gauntlets and idk wraith strike punching daggers.
:shrugs:
Either way on the Escape Artist. I just think that, given the clear difference of this class vs. a Monk, it would be good to continue differentiating them vs. making them similar. That would extend to the skill set.
Tony Jaa would NOT be a brawler, IMO - he's a MONK, BIG TIME!! ;-)
IMO, the Monk - dexterous/skilled unarmed guy. Dedicated, comtemplative, constantly practicing, honing forms, etc.
The brawlers - no finesse, no science, just straight up "punching you in the head 'till your dead!" Kind of guy.
I'd even de-emphasize weapons for them, maybe even more than Monks - say ... forgo all weapon proficiency outright even? Grant some auto-feats in place or something? Like Weapon Focus: fists and Improved Grapple and stuff like that - all as part of the 1st level package. IF they want to learn weapons - fine, but make 'em spend feats to get them. Again - my idea would be to make them as different from Monks as possible with only the functional overlap of "unarmed damage" and maybe AC (sine they'll have to rely on something other than armor to add to their AC quite a bit).
Hmmm .. maybe in higher levels the "brute strength" *could* even go so far as to mimic like a stone skin, or bark skin sort of effect?
I'm kind of thinking of Final Fantasy games with characters like Sabin - that went unarmed the whole game, but got constantly more deadly in-game with different techniques, etc. That's how that "brute strength" should work for them, I think. But also the class, as a whole, is just not a weapon-using class. Maybe one of the brute strength features would extend/make available punching weapons for use as described by Felgorth, rather than make it a default for all brawlers?
Just some more thoughts - this is a fun class, though. Just needs some polish, IMO.
Tony Jaa is a "brawler" he was a rope fighter before he was in movies. That scene in Ong Bak where he takes a guy down with one knee is a reenactment of his first rope fight. I think the idea behind the brawler is to make him a bar/street-fighter though and it's very likely he'd put something on his hands to add to his unarmed attack (such as spiked gauntlets or punching daggers) is very likely.
much like the barbarian who has many nature skills the brawler was given some urban skills, both are combat oriented classes but gain skills orientated for where they come from. this is why i gave the brawler the skills he has, it suits a person living in the cities.
many skill ideas work for both the monk and the brawler because they just plain suit unarmed character like escape artist, the brawler may be more strength than Dex but it fits the core idea of an unarmed worrier.
the thing i liked the most about the toughness feat was that you could take it as often as you wanted, i do like the new toughness but i dont like the idea that your stuck at taking it once i like the idea that you had an option to increase your hp whenever you gained a new feat.
this is why i gave the brawler Tenacity, which returned the option to buff yourself, if you feel this is too week then maybe increasing the bonus is an option but i want it to be something they can choose to take as often as they want.
I love the idea of this class. The best ideas are the ones that combine Barbarian and Monk. That way you can have an urban Barbarian without the "Krog go to big city" feel, and you can have a monk without the Eastern flare. I built one a while back, and here are some thoughts:
Make the unarmed damage the same as a monk. Same progression, same damage. It's not stealing thunder, it's giving a different way to have an unarmed combatant.
Instead of more hit points, perhaps a way to shrug off punishment. Class abilities like Defensive Roll, and a Second Wind (similar or identical in mechanic to Wholeness of Body).
I love the idea of adding the damage from improvised weapons onto unarmed damage. Brass Knuckles can have the mechanic then of being a reusable improvised weapon. But he's just as likely to pick up a chair and hit you with it as he is to use Brass Knuckles.
Knockout Punch is a great idea. I think knocking someone unconscious is overpowered. I would have this mirror flurry of blows, but instead, take a -2 penalty to hit in order to deal extra damage. That way it feels like s/he's really winding up and laying into someone. It doesn't mean that it's going to knock out everyone who he hits. Sometimes the ogre just keeps coming.
I agree that adding wisdom into it is a player choice, and shouldn't be intrinsically tied to the class. As far as skills go, Intimidate, Knowledge: Local, and maybe Sense Motive create a picture of an urban skill set. The only thing I get from Diplomacy is the Gathering Information, so how about something like Shake Down, letting you use your Intimidate to gather information instead of Diplomacy, and maybe letting you add your strength bonus to the check.
Those are my thoughts.
@ Slayer: nice ideas, but I'd still rather see something different from the Monk vs. ripping idea. At most - the unarmed damage (which would be stronger with it's own mechanic and progression, IMO, but still) and maybe some AC boosting - but that's about it. The "fluff" behind each is very different, so it'd be nice to see different mechanics reflecting this.
Solid revision on the KO punch. Good point about "unconscious" status, too. Maybe ... it should go more along the lines of "Knocked prone and stunned" as well? Maybe with a distance as if bull-rushed as well (also opening up AoO's for the distance IF applicable)? On this front, I'm thinking the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie - the scene when Sean Connery just 1-punches the guy he's fighting early on? That, IMO, is sort of the classic "knock out punch" effect. Hit 'em hard, knock 'em back, and lay 'em out flat (ie: prone position).
I'd also point out that there's a feat that allows use of Str to Intimidate checks already. Just go with that as an option IF the player wants to invest (vs. inherent to the class in some way).
@northbrb: On the skill front - "useful" for background is not the same as class appropriate. I stand by most of the things I said before about the class skill as standing out as odd. Sure - useful to appraise, but when is a brawler likely to sit and learn about it? Diplomacy is "useful" for any class - it doesn't mean that a brawler is particularly eloquent or gifted in this department.
Keep in mind the skill changes in PF, too. All that "class skill" means now is that you get a +3 to the checks - that's IT! No more "cross class" double sp for 1/2 the benefit, and all the other things that went along with it. It's been streamlined and simplified. Not having it on the "class list" now just means "not particularly dedicated to it" vs. (3.x implication) "can't/shouldn't be capable of doing it AT ALL!"
Complete paradigm shift there - and one for the better! It's much more simple and clean, and fair (not to mention less complicated to keep track of skill point wise).
You know, the more I think of it, the more that the brawler would likely be better served as a 2+ Int skill class. You've taken the Barbarian progression of rage powers, and greatly reduced the offensive options of this class (weapon wise), so it might be better to look at it - design wise - as a Fighter+/- sort of approach. The barbarian has some wilderness skills useful for survival and such. It expands his skills/utility in a way I don't think a brawler would be. Just a thought to ponder ...
With the Toughness thing - who says you can only take this class ability one time? Take it multiple times if you want! You're designing it right now. For my games, I run like so: Toughness = anyone can take and benefit from. Improved Toughness (from Complete Warrior) is up there as an option, and as soon as you have +2 to your base Fort save, you can pick that feat up, too (so everyone can act - for hp determination - as if they're 4 con points higher the entire length of their career). Now, add this ability as a Brute Strength option, and brawlers get some CRAZY hp's, if they want a few more by taking this option. Why limit it? Barbarian abilities can be taken multiple times, as can feats in general (some add to the effect, some just add to a new option the same benefit, and some just have a slight name change). IMO, choose your flavor of the existing mechanics and use that rather than nerf your concept from the get and make it SUCH a sub-par investment that no one would ever really want it.
Regardless of what you choose to do, I think it's fantastic stuff and likely to see some use in my future games, though. Nice work! :-D
to be honest many of the options such as skills, unarmed damage, and so on i chose because i liked them, they made the most sense to me and it made the class feel like what i wanted it to feel like, i don't mean to be rude or anything but i don't think i will alter the skills or unarmed damage for play in my group.
i appreciate all the help and ideas but i feel altering these things will go against the kind of class i want the Brawler to be, i do not want the thread to stop i still want to hear your opinions and ideas i just would like you to know that these things will not be changed.
although this class can be compared to the monk because the monk is the only other unarmed class, i don't think that giving this class the same unarmed damage of the monk is the best idea. i also think this class needs higher skills than the fighter mainly because it feels right for me i want it to have 4+int to skills.
This class is built from the idea that i want to play it, i am not going to give the class anything i wouldn't want to have, that being said it is not meant to be a class with just the best things i want but its also not going to have things i will never use or things that feel off to me.
Again let me say i love that everyone seems to really want to put in there ideas and i do not want it to stop but those few things i will not be changing.
the Brawlers mob defense is supposed to be the Brawlers ac boost.
Brute Strength: Scared defense: you add your con mod to ac as a natural bonus.
Fluff: due to all the scares and calises the brawlers skin is toughened and has become more resistant.
Brute Strength: Scared defense: you add your con mod to ac as a natural bonus.
Fluff: due to all the scares and calises the brawlers skin is toughened and has become more resistant.
PURE GENIUS!!!!!
'nuff said! Yeah - regardless of "tone" transferring or not, I've been mostly tossing suggestions/ideas for refinement vs. any insistence in needing to adapt/adjust things. That it has solidified your original intent, IMO, is a sign that you have a very clear concept and if anything, this made that more clear/defined to you. Which is cool!
For myself, I'll probably mess around with it a bit, reformat it some, and push it out into my game world to fit closer with my own aesthetics and design approach. That one option above is brilliant, though!!!
I can see where the Mob Defense was meant to help out, too ... I think it's just weird - a higher AC vs. more opponents is ... neat, but weird that you fight better vs. many when compared to just vs. one. Were you thinking of Fezzig(sp?) from Princess Bride or something (said he was better at fighting groups vs. individuals)?
yeah that's where i got the idea.
feel free to make any alterations you need to make it fit your game and i have appreciated all the help.
i have no ill tone or feelings for your opinions, and still appreciate all your comments.
besides the unarmed damage or skills are there any other ideas for this class or would you say the class seems finished.
Given that you've opted for the "rage power" progression, you're pretty much done save whatever new Brute Strength abilities come to mind, really.
I would also point out that compared to Rage Powers, EVERY option above for Brute Strength is superior just because it's utility hasn't been catastrophically reduced in application. Most are simply "add ons" and that is a VERY good thing in design, IMO.
I hesitate at the earlier suggestion to go with d12 HD just because one of the Brute Strength options is specifically about boosting HP's anyway - combined, it *could* mean they end up with even more HP's than barbarians ... just a balance point to consider.
does the class seem to be missing anything when it comes to its Brute Strength ability, are there any other ideas for some abilities i should add to the Brute Strength list?
if it makes sense then i guess i will add those feats to the brawlers brute strength ability minus pre reqs not counting base attack.
i think the last thing i would like to know is does the flavor feel right, does this class seem like one that would be printed in a pathfinder book.