Can you take 10 or take 20 on ability checks like you can on skill checks (subject to all the same limitations of course).
I have a summoner with contact other plane who doesn't want to lose his spells for a week. If he can take 10, then he can auto succeed when contacting certain planes.
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.
Yes, assuming all requirements of taking 10 and 20 are otherwise met.
While you can take 10 on an ability check, you can only take 10 if you are not in immediate danger or if you are not distracted. For the spell Contact other plane, you must roll the INT or CHA check to avoid your mind being overwhelmed by contacting an other reality (see the third paragraph of the spell's description. So the caster is (seriously) distracted which means that (s)he cannot take 10.
This can also be deducted from the fact that the DC for the check is 12 or lower except for contacting intermediate or greater deities. Now a caster must have a minimum of INT or CHA score of 15 in order to cast the spell (the spell is 5th level), which means (s)he has a minimum bonus of +2 for the relevant ability. If the caster could take 10 for this roll, the check would not make any sense.
I think the roll make perfect sense if you are a Charisma based caster. Also, I don't see anything in the text about distractions and such as you seem to. If I did, I wouldn't have asked the question (as the answer would have been moot).
I don't see anything in the text about distractions and such as you seem to. If I did, I wouldn't have asked the question (as the answer would have been moot).
might want to reread the section then. I have quoted it below, and italicized the part that GE was talking about.
Taking 10 and Taking 20
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.
might want to reread the section then.
I was referring to the spell. The SPELL doesn't seem to say anything about distractions. I am actually quite familiar with the take 10/20 rules and their limitations. Having your brain overwhelmed is not a distraction, but a consequence. Kind of like how jumping over a 10 ft. chasm is not a distraction, but falling is a consequence. In both cases you can take 10 and avoid the consequence.
I am actually quite familiar with the take 10/20 rules and their limitations.
Really? You are? then why did you even ask your question in the first place?
The answer to your initial posted question is CLEARLY spelled out there under the last bolded point I quoted above.
I think the roll make perfect sense if you are a Charisma based caster. Also, I don't see anything in the text about distractions and such as you seem to. If I did, I wouldn't have asked the question (as the answer would have been moot).While you can take 10 on an ability check, you can only take 10 if you are not in immediate danger or if you are not distracted. For the spell Contact other plane, you must roll the INT or CHA check to avoid your mind being overwhelmed by contacting an other reality (see the third paragraph of the spell's description. So the caster is (seriously) distracted which means that (s)he cannot take 10.
This can also be deducted from the fact that the DC for the check is 12 or lower except for contacting intermediate or greater deities. Now a caster must have a minimum of INT or CHA score of 15 in order to cast the spell (the spell is 5th level), which means (s)he has a minimum bonus of +2 for the relevant ability. If the caster could take 10 for this roll, the check would not make any sense.
It less about distractions and more about being under duress. You can take a 10 when you are not under pressure. Having a being of great power trying to invade your mind qualifies as being in immediate danger IMO.
I am actually quite familiar with the take 10/20 rules and their limitations.Really? You are? then why did you even ask your question in the first place?
Because I couldn't find the relevant text in the PFSRD and I wanted to be sure before moving forward with the idea. I was already reasonably sure that I could take 10 on ability checks.
It less about distractions and more about being under duress. You can take a 10 when you are not under pressure. Having a being of great power trying to invade your mind qualifies as being in immediate danger IMO.
I can see that I suppose.
Still, this spell isn't really viable if you can't take 10. Who in their right mind would risk losing their spellcasting abilities for a week in order to get a highly unreliable answer? Why does divination have to suck so?
It less about distractions and more about being under duress. You can take a 10 when you are not under pressure. Having a being of great power trying to invade your mind qualifies as being in immediate danger IMO.I think the roll make perfect sense if you are a Charisma based caster. Also, I don't see anything in the text about distractions and such as you seem to. If I did, I wouldn't have asked the question (as the answer would have been moot).While you can take 10 on an ability check, you can only take 10 if you are not in immediate danger or if you are not distracted. For the spell Contact other plane, you must roll the INT or CHA check to avoid your mind being overwhelmed by contacting an other reality (see the third paragraph of the spell's description. So the caster is (seriously) distracted which means that (s)he cannot take 10.
This can also be deducted from the fact that the DC for the check is 12 or lower except for contacting intermediate or greater deities. Now a caster must have a minimum of INT or CHA score of 15 in order to cast the spell (the spell is 5th level), which means (s)he has a minimum bonus of +2 for the relevant ability. If the caster could take 10 for this roll, the check would not make any sense.
I personally would have to agree.
I also agree. This spell sucks even if you can take 10!
Why does divination have to suck so?
Because Divination can often be a straight up plot buster.
I am actually quite familiar with the take 10/20 rules and their limitations.Really? You are? then why did you even ask your question in the first place?Because I couldn't find the relevant text in the PFSRD and I wanted to be sure before moving forward with the idea. I was already reasonably sure that I could take 10 on ability checks.
It less about distractions and more about being under duress. You can take a 10 when you are not under pressure. Having a being of great power trying to invade your mind qualifies as being in immediate danger IMO.I can see that I suppose.
Still, this spell isn't really viable if you can't take 10. Who in their right mind would risk losing their spellcasting abilities for a week in order to get a highly unreliable answer? Why does divination have to suck so?
I always saw it as a great last ditch hail mary spell. After all the players have failed their knowledge skill checks horrible, this spell can get around that. That, or you are dealing with really high DC knowledge checks.
The whole point is to give you knowledge that you couldn't normally get. If you could get the knowledge from a normal knowledge or info gathering check then you don't need the spell.
It is also a spell that can let player short circuit a large chunk of adventures. Instead of having to gain the swamp witch's help by defeating the nearby giant clan to gain information about the location of the BBEG hideout, you just cast a spell. That is why spells like this are left very vague. They CAN be game breaking in some campaigns.
OK, for those who say you can take 10, here is the question: Why would the description of the spell say that you must make a successfull DC 7 INT/CHA check to contact a being from the elemental planes, if the caster may take 10 and so the minimum result is 12?
Say, for example, you were a spellcasting general trying to cast the spell during a pitched battle to help win the day while your army is off trying to keep you protected to buy you time. You couldn't take 10 then.
The spell description is written that way for completeness' sake.
with a casting time of 10 minutes you would have to be an utter moron to even attempt casting this spell during a battle, at least one in which you were personally threatened, and if you are not in danger during the battle (say you are well behind the front lines, so that you know you are going to have 10 or more minutes of relative stability with which to cast the spell) then I wouldn't think you would be under duress.
OK, for those who say you can take 10, here is the question: Why would the description of the spell say that you must make a successfull DC 7 INT/CHA check to contact a being from the elemental planes, if the caster may take 10 and so the minimum result is 12?
Very good point and one which remains unanswered.
Possibly because it means you can't take 10 as you need to concentrate on the spell (Duration concentration) and you can't take 10 on concentration checks (Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.)
OK, for those who say you can take 10, here is the question: Why would the description of the spell say that you must make a successfull DC 7 INT/CHA check to contact a being from the elemental planes, if the caster may take 10 and so the minimum result is 12?Very good point and one which remains unanswered.
Possibly because it means you can't take 10 as you need to concentrate on the spell (Duration concentration) and you can't take 10 on concentration checks (Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.)
Except that a Sorcerer CAN fail that Int check. There is no Cha check for this spell.
Except that a Sorcerer CAN fail that Int check. There is no Cha check for this spell.
to fail a DC 7 INT check when taking 10 a character would have to have an INT of 3 or less (which is highly unlikely, although not beyond the realm of possibility).
Very good point and one which remains unanswered.
I did answer the question. The low DCs are listed for completeness sake for when you are unable to take 10. (I admit my example was a little extreme, but a person with an army could conceivably keep the enemy off of his back for 10 minutes while he divines a method of winning the battle. Heck, a well placed abjuration might buy you 10 minutes.)
Why should you be able to take 10?
What is the "case" for it.
Why should you be able to take 10?
What is the "case" for it.
Now you are asking a different question. In answer to the new question:
How's this for making a case: the spell will never be used otherwise.
Also, whether or not otherworld entities constitutes a distraction/duress OR as a consequence is highly debatable. If it is the former, than you shouldn't be able to take 10. If it is the latter, than you should.
Except that a Sorcerer CAN fail that Int check. There is no Cha check for this spell.to fail a DC 7 INT check when taking 10 a character would have to have an INT of 3 or less (which is highly unlikely, although not beyond the realm of possibility).
Have you even read the spell? The DC can go as high as 16.
Why should you be able to take 10?
What is the "case" for it.Now you are asking a different question. In answer to the new question:
How's this for making a case: the spell will never be used otherwise.
Also, whether or not otherworld entities constitutes a distraction/duress OR as a consequence is highly debatable. If it is the former, than you shouldn't be able to take 10. If it is the latter, than you should.
What I am saying is that several people have pointed out the answer no and have given reasons. However you seem to be adamant that the answer is you can. I am simply asking for your reasons.
Have you even read the spell? The DC can go as high as 16.Except that a Sorcerer CAN fail that Int check. There is no Cha check for this spell.to fail a DC 7 INT check when taking 10 a character would have to have an INT of 3 or less (which is highly unlikely, although not beyond the realm of possibility).
that is true.... but the initial argument for the side saying that you shouldn't be able to take 10 because the int check mechanic is pointless otherwise only dealt with contacting an elemental plane. Indeed if you are contacting a greater deity, even a wizard could be expected to miss the INT check taking 10 unless he had an INT boosting item equipped.
that is true.... but the initial argument for the side saying that you shouldn't be able to take 10 because the int check mechanic is pointless otherwise only dealt with contacting an elemental plane. Indeed if you are contacting a greater deity, even a wizard could be expected to miss the INT check taking 10 unless he had an INT boosting item equipped.
You are correct, sir.
What I am saying is that several people have pointed out the answer no and have given reasons. However you seem to be adamant that the answer is you can. I am simply asking for your reasons.The only thing that I am adamant about is that it is debatable.
It less about distractions and more about being under duress. You can take a 10 when you are not under pressure. Having a being of great power trying to invade your mind qualifies as being in immediate danger IMO.I can see that I suppose.
See?