This would be a big chew. We'd have to start out trying to figure out the relationship between what the Hebrew Bible meant by hatred, what the Christian tradition means by hatred, and what the contemporary questioner means by hatred, and then look for the overlapping areas between those three. I think we'd find the three circles would not overlap perfectly, and in the case of the Hebrew Bible, that circle might be fairly off the other two.
I'm still not sure of my perception on hatred as the question asker. It's more as a means to inform myself than anything else. I'm wondering if there has been an explanation for hatred, does it have a teleological* nature? If so, then what is that point.
*I love that word. The professor I had for World Religions and Philosophy classes (same guy), used that word a lot.
A Teleology of Hatred, eh?
Well, I've never worked on hatred. But here is my initial stab:I suspect that hatred is inextricably linked with love, perhaps even a by-product of love. I hate people who abuse children, because I love children. Specifically, I love strongly certain children. When presented with child abusers or an instance of child abuse, I experience a surge of hatred. If I didn't, then why would that be? Because the love wasn't present? Because I was in some way inhibited or defective?
On this read, hatred would have existed as love's shadow, and comes into view when the threat to the love manifests itself. It's function would be the motivating power to act to protect and preserve the object of love. It's value in between reactions would be the preparedness to act.
Nope. Life couldn't be that great.I take it they don't let you combine discounts? Like throw the 15% coupon on top of the 10% educator's?
And of course ... the annual 20% Memorial Day weekend sale is coming up.
BTW....I wasn't aware that it's free to get a similar Border's membership for discounts.... is it? How does theirs work?
EDIT: TOTP
Borders tries to get all picky about whether you are actually using something in the classroom, depending on who is checking you out. Varies by store and by employee, so I have it but rarely use it. Anything less than 33% off (come on, rare 40% off coupon!) isn't worth my time, Borders.
Excellent observation, Herr Doktor.
If people don't see the value of the little blue gnomes, either they haven't seen them stomp out a combusting thread, or they love to bask in everburning flames.Oh it's getting even better now Dr. Double D. The smnrf is hitting the smnrf!
I was surprised: I didn't think people really wanted to discuss the matter.
Apparently I suck at keeping secrets.
Gary, I always respected you as a PostMonster, but your stock has just gone way up for me as a MAN. By the powers vested in me twofold, I honor you!
And with that, I think I'm really caught up now. Whew!
Pat: Hope you're having a b-day blast.
...vanquishing a gator...
You'll be up to beheading Linnorms and claiming kingdoms in no time. :)
Interesting ... Watching Craig Ferguson ... tonight's guest is Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Wouldn't have guessed that.
Actually, the Archbishop has been on twice before, if I remember correctly... they are pretty good friends in RL now. {again shakes fist at broken DTV converter box}
Goooooooooooood afternoon Fawlty Towers!!!!!
What's up folks? Today's my last day off, and I am certainly living it up as if it were. D&D last night with the people in manhattan was amazing- never before have I recieved such a warm welcome! They kept my character as an NPC and I leveled him up to 7 from 2, all in Rogue. He's a tiefling of the rakasha line and his face bears very serpentine features, so I took the feats and rogue talents to play that up. The moment of the game was when he made several sneak attacks from prone, slithering(crawling using rogue talent) all the while. Who knew a hand crossbow could be so damaging? After that we played Settlers of Catan, a funky 3d version that I was ONE TURN AWAY from winning, but noooo...someone had to get a victory point card and steal the game!!!! Getting home was hell as there were several re-routings along the subway, but my god...what a wonderful night!!! They may be changing the game day for the summer, so I might be able to actually make this game and start up the Alkenstar campaign again. It was so wonderful...nights like that make me glad I play D&D. What a great night, and on the heels of the cultural festival to boot!
Nothing much to do today except tape Deadliest Warrior and the season finale of V, and to catch a meeting at the second job. I'm gonna hop in the shower so I can actually make it into manhattan in time for the meeting.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MONKEYMAN! And I'm glad you had a great gaming night too, Lynora. And since the gator ran way, you still get XP, Moorluck!
I'm so green right now, FhDM.
AB: Popping up everywhere!
I pray God doesn't make me go back to totally boycotting Wotc. Alas, he blessed/cursed man with freewill...
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Goooooooooooood afternoon Fawlty Towers!!!!!
What's up folks? Today's my last day off, and I am certainly living it up as if it were. D&D last night with the people in manhattan was amazing- never before have I recieved such a warm welcome! They kept my character as an NPC and I leveled him up to 7 from 2, all in Rogue. He's a tiefling of the rakasha line and his face bears very serpentine features, so I took the feats and rogue talents to play that up. The moment of the game was when he made several sneak attacks from prone, slithering(crawling using rogue talent) all the while. Who knew a hand crossbow could be so damaging? After that we played Settlers of Catan, a funky 3d version that I was ONE TURN AWAY from winning, but noooo...someone had to get a victory point card and steal the game!!!! Getting home was hell as there were several re-routings along the subway, but my god...what a wonderful night!!! They may be changing the game day for the summer, so I might be able to actually make this game and start up the Alkenstar campaign again. It was so wonderful...nights like that make me glad I play D&D. What a great night, and on the heels of the cultural festival to boot!
Sounds like a fantastic night. I am happy you had such a great gaming night.
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This would be a big chew. We'd have to start out trying to figure out the relationship between what the Hebrew Bible meant by hatred, what the Christian tradition means by hatred, and what the contemporary questioner means by hatred, and then look for the overlapping areas between those three. I think we'd find the three circles would not overlap perfectly, and in the case of the Hebrew Bible, that circle might be fairly off the other two.
I'm still not sure of my perception on hatred as the question asker. It's more as a means to inform myself than anything else. I'm wondering if there has been an explanation for hatred, does it have a teleological* nature? If so, then what is that point.
*I love that word. The professor I had for World Religions and Philosophy classes (same guy), used that word a lot.
A Teleology of Hatred, eh?
Well, I've never worked on hatred. But here is my initial stab:
I suspect that hatred is inextricably linked with love, perhaps even a by-product of love. I hate people who abuse children, because I love children. Specifically, I love strongly certain children. When presented with child abusers or an instance of child abuse, I experience a surge of hatred. If I didn't, then why would that be? Because the love wasn't present? Because I was in some way inhibited or defective?On this read, hatred would have existed as love's shadow, and comes into view when the threat to the love manifests itself. It's function would be the motivating power to act to protect and preserve the object of love. It's value in between reactions would be the preparedness to act.
Thanks for the ideas, Doc. Do you think that there would be a point to hate's existence in a theological sense, why would God have such an emotion exist. Barring that, is there a biological function for hate?
Questions, questions...
This would be a big chew. We'd have to start out trying to figure out the relationship between what the Hebrew Bible meant by hatred, what the Christian tradition means by hatred, and what the contemporary questioner means by hatred, and then look for the overlapping areas between those three. I think we'd find the three circles would not overlap perfectly, and in the case of the Hebrew Bible, that circle might be fairly off the other two.
I'm still not sure of my perception on hatred as the question asker. It's more as a means to inform myself than anything else. I'm wondering if there has been an explanation for hatred, does it have a teleological* nature? If so, then what is that point.
*I love that word. The professor I had for World Religions and Philosophy classes (same guy), used that word a lot.
A Teleology of Hatred, eh?
Well, I've never worked on hatred. But here is my initial stab:
I suspect that hatred is inextricably linked with love, perhaps even a by-product of love. I hate people who abuse children, because I love children. Specifically, I love strongly certain children. When presented with child abusers or an instance of child abuse, I experience a surge of hatred. If I didn't, then why would that be? Because the love wasn't present? Because I was in some way inhibited or defective?On this read, hatred would have existed as love's shadow, and comes into view when the threat to the love manifests itself. It's function would be the motivating power to act to protect and preserve the object of love. It's value in between reactions would be the preparedness to act.
Thanks for the ideas, Doc. Do you think that there would be a point to hate's existence in a theological sense, why would God have such an emotion exist. Barring that, is there a biological function for hate?
Questions, questions...
Sure: Love is both theological and biological. Love drives biological life to a point, and biology is the vehicle for all theological purposes--at least, all the purposes that have to do with us, not barring other purposes of God. As far as theology goes, love is both essential to the Trinitarian God and the teleology of all created beings. If I'm right about hate, it is, in and of itself, a good thing. The question would be, can love exist without hate? If there is no threat to love, I'd say there is no hate. But it would seem that the potential for hate would always be there, theoretically. (Let me know if any of these points are connecting for you.)
Thanks for the ideas, Doc. Do you think that there would be a point to hate's existence in a theological sense, why would God have such an emotion exist. Barring that, is there a biological function for hate?
Biology is pretty much my take on dislike and hatred. Man is a social animal and we benefit both individually and as a species by being cooperative. Those who do not contribute toward common good, being either unwilling or unable, tend to be disliked. Those who actively work against the common good get moved to the hated category, where our instinct is to prevent them from doing further harm by whatever means necessary.
As thinking, feeling beings, we recogize the destructive nature of hatred, but it doesn't stop us from feeling it.
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Sure: Love is both theological and biological. Love drives biological life to a point, and biology is the vehicle for all theological purposes--at least, all the purposes that have to do with us, not barring other purposes of God. As far as theology goes, love is both essential to the Trinitarian God and the teleology of all created beings. If I'm right about hate, it is, in and of itself, a good thing. The question would be, can love exist without hate? If there is no threat to love, I'd say there is no hate. But it would seem that the potential for hate would always be there, theoretically. (Let me know if any of these points are connecting for you.)
Right, that makes sense. At the same time it seem antithetical to the very nature of love. By its nature it seems to lead to destructive activity while love seems to want to preserve that which is loved. In this way, I'm not sure how hate could be a shadow of love. A response maybe, but what about hatred that is so strong that it overwhelms love? It would seem to me that a shadow couldn't be more powerful than the object itself.
It strikes me that it is possible for hate to exist without connection to love.
How?
{armchair philosophizing:} I'm sure the roots of hate are found in love (and the vice versa), but I wouldn't discount the roles of fear (especially of the Other) and jealousy.
I know there are biological causes for natural anxiety (wariness of predators, social position, reproductive imperitives, etc.) that can go into overload where the stress response doesn't turn off. Perhaps there are causal biological and social components where the "hate response" is overactive or fails to shut off?
Edit: Partially ninja'd by Mrs. & Mr. Treppa and CH. Also not sure I'm on the same page as everyone else (as usual).
Thanks for the ideas, Doc. Do you think that there would be a point to hate's existence in a theological sense, why would God have such an emotion exist. Barring that, is there a biological function for hate?Biology is pretty much my take on dislike and hatred. Man is a social animal and we benefit both individually and as a species by being cooperative. Those who do not contribute toward common good, being either unwilling or unable, tend to be disliked. Those who actively work against the common good get moved to the hated category, where our instinct is to prevent them from doing further harm by whatever means necessary.
As thinking, feeling beings, we recogize the destructive nature of hatred, but it doesn't stop us from feeling it.
But it's not just destructive. Due to hate, the justice system grinds on until it reaches it's conclusion. Thus it's persistent. But it's also surgent: in the moment, the person hating throw themselves into violent action to protect, strike down, etc.
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Biology is pretty much my take on dislike and hatred. Man is a social animal and we benefit both individually and as a species by being cooperative. Those who do not contribute toward common good, being either unwilling or unable, tend to be disliked. Those who actively work against the common good get moved to the hated category, where our instinct is to prevent them from doing further harm by whatever means necessary.
As thinking, feeling beings, we recogize the destructive nature of hatred, but it doesn't stop us from feeling it.
Then why are people hated who are trying to help their society? Why are some people who would be reviled today loved at the time though they destroyed (let's avoid the obvious and go with... say, Charlemagne and the Verdict of Verdun instead). It seems to me that hate is an entirely different beast.
{armchair philosophizing:} I'm sure the roots of hate are found in love (and the vice versa), but I wouldn't discount the roles of fear (especially of the Other) and jealousy.
I know there are biological causes for natural anxiety (wariness of predators, social position, reproductive imperitives, etc.) that can go into overload where the stress response doesn't turn off. Perhaps there are causal biological and social components where the "hate response" is overactive or fails to shut off?
I wonder if we wouldn't explain fear and jealous in terms of love? Fear of losing the beloved. Fear that it will be harmed or its good interfered with. It seems to me that if you explained fear in terms of love, you'd explain jealous in terms of fear. Those seem obvious derivations to me, at least.
Then why are people hated who are trying to help their society? Why are some people who would be reviled today loved at the time though they destroyed (let's avoid the obvious and go with... say, Charlemagne and the Verdict of Verdun instead). It seems to me that hate is an entirely different beast.Biology is pretty much my take on dislike and hatred. Man is a social animal and we benefit both individually and as a species by being cooperative. Those who do not contribute toward common good, being either unwilling or unable, tend to be disliked. Those who actively work against the common good get moved to the hated category, where our instinct is to prevent them from doing further harm by whatever means necessary.
As thinking, feeling beings, we recogize the destructive nature of hatred, but it doesn't stop us from feeling it.
Because when people hate they are loving different goods. So (best case scenario, granting everyone the benefit of the doubt), when George Bush is loving the good of protecting the US from terrorists, I am loving the truth of who the real terrorists are and the truth of how just war is prosecuted, and we come into conflict. And I might hate him a tiny bit. :p Or at least his policies.
It strikes me that it is possible for hate to exist without connection to love.How?Ambrosia's post seems along the lines of what I had in mind.
What about hatred for a racial group?
Loving the good of one's own "racial" group.
What about hatred born out of jealousy? (Unless that's coming out of love of self.)
Love of self seems the candidate, here.
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It strikes me that it is possible for hate to exist without connection to love.How?Ambrosia's post seems along the lines of what I had in mind.
What about hatred for a racial group?
What about hatred born out of jealousy? (Unless that's coming out of love of self.)
A lot of racist groups express as their ideology the protection and superiority of their own races over others. Hate in that case does seem to be a shadow of love, but then it seems to be in opposition to it's nature as a shadow.
This seems to be a case where hate is more powerful than the love. This makes me wonder which is the shadow of which. Is love a byproduct of hate?
This seems to be a case where hate is more powerful than the love. This makes me wonder which is the shadow of which. Is love a byproduct of hate?
Is Destruction more powerful than Creation? Which is the shadow of which?
Edit: The seed of Destruction is at the heart of Creation, and vice versa.
And Law and Chaos are seeds at the heart of their opposite... which is why Monks should be Neutral instead of Lawful. :)
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This seems to be a case where hate is more powerful than the love. This makes me wonder which is the shadow of which. Is love a byproduct of hate?Is Destruction more powerful than Creation? Which is the shadow of which?
You beg the question of me then: Is love creation, preservation, both, or neither?
Edit: It would seem to me that love is preservative in nature if I think about it. Creation might come about in the form of children, but in many ways you could think of children as being the preservation of you. In this way, its nature would be opposite of destruction. But then is hate actually destructive on its own?
You beg the question of me then: Is love creation, preservation, both, or neither?
[Yoda]"Yes."[/Yoda] :)
It strikes me that it is possible for hate to exist without connection to love.How?Ambrosia's post seems along the lines of what I had in mind.
What about hatred for a racial group?
What about hatred born out of jealousy? (Unless that's coming out of love of self.)
A lot of racist groups express as their ideology the protection and superiority of their own races over others. Hate in that case does seem to be a shadow of love, but then it seems to be in opposition to it's nature as a shadow.
This seems to be a case where hate is more powerful than the love. This makes me wonder which is the shadow of which. Is love a byproduct of hate?
In opposition, how?
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Is Destruction more powerful than Creation? Which is the shadow of which?
Reminds me of an Eddie Izzard skit. I think it was about Shiva being a god of both creation and destruction instead of just creation. "*whomp* 'You like that? No? Ok.' *whomp* 'gone'" as opposed to "*whomp* 'You like that? No? Ok.' *looks around* 'I'll just put it in the garage. I don't have a garage.' *whomp* 'There's a garage...'"
Heh. Should we take this to the club house? I mean, Moff is practically bringing down curses on us!
I like Izzard. {wants penne all'arrabbiata in the Death Star canteen}
Perhaps Love and Hate are less opposites and more extremes along the same spectrum?
I like Izzard. {wants penne all'arrabbiata in the Death Star canteen}
Perhaps Love and Hate are less opposites and more extremes along the same spectrum?
Yeah, opposing doesn't seem to quite capture it. But I'm not sure spectrum does either. I'll have to think about it.
Edit: Opposite, perhaps in the sense of complementary opposites, in some sort of union.
Heh. Should we take this to the club house? I mean, Moff is practically bringing down curses on us!
He's already invoking Shiva, and we've barely started.
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I like Izzard. {wants penne all'arrabbiata in the Death Star canteen}
Perhaps Love and Hate are less opposites and more extremes along the same spectrum?
Destruction could be the actual creative force. Like when a star explodes it creates a body of gases, possibly a neutron star, pulsar, or black hole. Those gases can form new stars and planets.
Preservation wouldn't lead to anything new. That first star would just exist forever... boring.
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It strikes me that it is possible for hate to exist without connection to love.How?Ambrosia's post seems along the lines of what I had in mind.
What about hatred for a racial group?
What about hatred born out of jealousy? (Unless that's coming out of love of self.)
Like many things I believe you need the duality to understand your emotions. Love and hate are born from each other and both are required to feel either.
As the good doctor says, when someone hates a racial group they need a basis of comparison. The most likely candidate for comparison would be the person's own racial group. Thus, there is a love and an appreciation of one group that helps spawn the hate for another.
The same goes for a romantic relationship. A person might start out loving another, but circumstances could change the love to hate. In order to understand that hate you need to compare it to the love you once held.
Love and hate mirror each other. I don't think one can exist without the other. But then, it is important to recognize the degrees in both emotions. Unfortunately, the English language is limited in its ability to describe the varying states of love and hate.
As a tangent to this, if we consider the psychology of language it could be postulated that these emotions are difficult for English speakers to express because we can't depend on word differences to help us understand the degree of the emotion. Sure, we utilize facial and tonal cues to help discern the degree of emotion but humans are notoriously given over to extremism and hyperbole. This can create some interesting interpretations of both love and hate, some of which are more extreme than originally intended.
I like Izzard. {wants penne all'arrabbiata in the Death Star canteen}
Perhaps Love and Hate are less opposites and more extremes along the same spectrum?
Destruction could be the actual creative force. Like when a star explodes it creates a body of gases, possibly a neutron star, pulsar, or black hole. Those gases can form new stars and planets.
Preservation wouldn't lead to anything new. That first star would just exist forever... boring.
It could be that destruction is really an intentional evaluation, and physically is not essentially a distinct concept.
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LOL, poor Moff.Have you ever read Uncle Shelby's ABZ book? You'd like it.
Silverstein? Silverstein!
No, I haven't seen it. :P
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It could be that destruction is really an intentional evaluation, and physically is not essentially a distinct concept.I like Izzard. {wants penne all'arrabbiata in the Death Star canteen}
Perhaps Love and Hate are less opposites and more extremes along the same spectrum?
Destruction could be the actual creative force. Like when a star explodes it creates a body of gases, possibly a neutron star, pulsar, or black hole. Those gases can form new stars and planets.
Preservation wouldn't lead to anything new. That first star would just exist forever... boring.
Right, which is what I'm wondering about hate at the same time. Can it exist without love, or are they both part of something greater? I think that Alleynbard brings up a good point about duality.
EDIT: Love and Hate for TOTP!
Sorry man I wish I could lie to you but I saw the email from the wizards rep at my buddies store. As it stands right now in Canada. 2 of the minis are coming to the entire province of Newfoundland, only 1 is making it too Nova Scotia, none to New brunswick, and P.E.I. So like I said I wish I could have lied about the availability.Happy birthday! Any Pathfinder loot coming your way?Thanks Iron Man! Well, I have the subscriptions, but my big present was the upcoming mini of Orcus. Now I just have to pray that WotC doesn't skrew it up. Jeremy McG posted that the mini is seeing extremely limited availability in the hobby stores (like 1-2 at most per) but Lisa S said the distributor assured her they could make the preorder Paizo had sent in. So now it's the waiting game ..
Nah, it's all good Jeremy, info is info and pretending facts aren't facts is how we humans get in so many bad situations (well, that and not thinking forther than about 6 months into the future..). I conceed your information is correct, but I also think that Lisa wouldn't lie to us and that as far as she knows Paizo will be able to honor their preorders.
I tend to be an optomist, and until I get that dreaded email from Paizo saying that due to WotC asshattery (although I am sure they will be much more diplomatic) there is no Orcus mini for my preorder I am going to assume I will get one.