so i decided to make a dual wielding fighter and started looking at the options. he gets attacks just like a monks flurry of blows, and both get a -2 for unarmed(though i stuck with light wep). using fighter feats u can get 2nd OH attack at lvl 6 for a total of 4 attacks. for a monk, u need to be lvl 8 for 4 attacks. same for 3rd OH attack, fighter gets it sooner. another difference is that fighters have a full BAB progression where a monk when he flurries is considered full bab, but note this doesn't apply for his standard. also, there is a 2 wep feat for rend, soooo worth it
using kukri was my choice for fighter. it hits pretty light, but has a 18-20 crit x2. which is better crit wise than monk. true monk gets his unarmed DV up'd every few lvls, but wep's with enchants are nicer imo. Especially if u can swing Speed enchant on both weps, allowing for xtra attacks at full BAB during full round attack.
Back to crit, u can take crit focus and go to town as a fighter. imp crit makes ur new crit range 15-20. (at lvl 20 u always crit) not to mention the fighter only weapon focus feat line.
In my build, it is based on Str being main stat but dex has to be 19 by lvl 11 for it to work best. so enhance item is a must.
lastly, i hate when my "flurry" of weps are cut short by the mob dying, so i went with lunge. -2 ac for reach. huge for full round attacks so that if target drops u can just switch off to the next guy who thought he was safe. step up also has its benefits for this build.
Nope. the dual weilding fighter would have 3 attacks at 6th level. Flurry only adds an adiditional attack at your highest attack bonus, and all attacks are at -2. at 6th level the fighter would be +4/+4/-1
Improved 2 weapon fighting gives another attack at -5 (giving him -4/-4/-1/-1). which requires a whopping dex 17. I think if you've given yourself dex 17, you probably deserve the feat tree to maintain it.
Yes it's more attacks than the monk, but it's 2 feats and a high attribute to get that. hardly unfair or sub-optimal. after all the fighter should eb able to, you know, fight.
while enchanted weapons are nice, something typically denied the monk, the monk isn't exactly weaponless, posessing a wide variety of weapon skills (though I do agree they are a very low damage option). Bear in mind it's not impossible to enhance a monk's unarmed strikes magically (the logic and practise of it strikes me as odd but I have seen it done) and the monk is perfectly capable of doing without the crit modifier in return for the progressivly improving damage (he's doing 1D8 damage by 6th level, D10 by 8th)
Undeniably the fighter fights better (Duh) the monk has a different style. My party got nearly TPK'd by Monk Hobgoblins due to excessive disarms (Magic sword? you mean My magic sword now), and the sorcerer had a hard time pinning them down (Awesome saving throws) so you can do different things with a monk. More tactical things.
But Yes. For fighting, take a fighter.
Batts
i was referring to the fact that u can take improved 2 hand at lvl 6 (requires bab 6... dur) so yes, +4/+4/-1/-1
and if u are telling me that that 2 feats is a waste for fight i laugh at u, they get 22 feats total as a human, i doubt 4 feats total will break the bank.
as for the dex 17, yes, that is rough, but the concept for this fight isn't a sword and board but a striker. if the character ONLY had 1 good stat i would do dex, but odds are u can swing 2 good stats. str and dex.
concept was that a fighter can be built to be a stronger monk than a monk... yes, they get little bonuses to sweeten the pot. but to be honest, monk is meant to be a fighter with less hastle of planning it out.
Monks are by far a different style of fighter than the fighter. Fighters are heavy assault vehicles (either tanks or artillery depending on your build) with thick armor, big guns, but not a whole lot of tactical options and very vulnerable in certain areas.
Monks are more like light attack helicopters. They're not heavily armored but they're difficult to deal with unless you have a specific set of weapons to handle them and are loaded with a number of options with which to kill you.
Also to comment about the weapon choices. Their is no rule saying monks only fight unarmed. In fact their are a whole series of weapons that monks can flurry with and can even exchange weapon attacks for unarmed strikes when needed. Finally a monk actually has a superior weapon in the unarmed strike in raw damage. Enchanting their fists is easy, just wear gauntlets. Gauntlets count as unarmed strikes in every way imaginable except they can be enchanted as weapons. This might ruin the image of an unarmed kung-fu master in your mind but that's what you have.
Bottomline: Fighters are very straightforward at hurting people and preventing getting hurt. Monks are less straightforward and more cranial when it comes to combat.
concept was that a fighter can be built to be a stronger monk than a monk... yes, they get little bonuses to sweeten the pot. but to be honest, monk is meant to be a fighter with less hastle of planning it out.
So you base your entire argument on the fact you can attack for more but not necessarily harder?
You also do realize that monks get an ability that lets them drop a ki point into getting an extra attack at their HIGHEST bab. Let's not forget I can still take those feats for the monk.
Honestly if you feel like monk is just an unarmed fighter you really have no idea what the monk is. That'd be like saying paladins were jsut fighters who don't have charisma as a dump stat or barbarians are just really angry fighters who spent too much time outdoors.
There's a feat I'll always want my monk to take: Medusa's Wrath. Two more attacks at full BAB when full-attacking. Since the prerequisites are waved away, it's like 2 feats freed. Pop a Ki point, and your flurry suddenly gets three more attacks than its already large number of attacks.
I think the fighter's main advantage is combat protection (armor/training) and damage (weapon training/specialization/etc.) while, as pointed earlier, the monk has a smattering of useful abilities not directly tied into making damage.
Additionally, I think that a fighter wanting to be like a monk will suffer from MAD as much as than the regular monk, if not more (note that I began with "I think that" because I know monks' MAD is a sore topic for some posters). Why? Because as a fighter you'll want some Str and Con, but Dex will also have to be high to use the TWF feat tree, and you'll need Int 13 to select some manoeuvers feats which belong to the monk's bonus feats lists - and, as a fighter, you'll have to get the other prerequisites too (BAB, other feats, etc). No dumping of Wis either because you'll need to win those Will and Perception rolls. Just Cha. Strong, somewhat agile, healthy, and wise, while not that friendly... you have your monk :-)
I keep waiting for my party's rogue to sneak attack punch the party monk.
wasgreg
wasonly slightly offtopic
I keep waiting for my party's rogue to sneak attack punch the party monk.
You are the DM? Just throw some rogue NPC in, although expect some difficulties since the monk's bonuses to AC count even when flat-footed. And, if he's using poison, they have a good fortitude save, too. And immunity to poison at medium level. I'm sure the fighter would not fare better against the standard rogue/assassin, in fact.
You are the DM? Just throw some rogue NPC in, although expect some difficulties since the monk's bonuses to AC count even when flat-footed. And, if he's using poison, they have a good fortitude save, too. And immunity to poison at medium level. I'm sure the fighter would not fare better against the standard rogue/assassin, in fact.
wasgreg
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First:
The Fighter will always fight better than the Monk. The Fighter will always fight better than <insert class here>. This is because, as a class, all Fighters do is fight. This is a universal truth of Pathfinder. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but get used to it.
Second:
We've talked about monks. We've talked extensively about monks, in fact. These conversations were one of the things that lead to the DPR olympics. These boards figured out how to make a monk that does competitive damage, and Treantmonk did a guide for them. He also found / pointed out some really neat tricks they can do.
You can find his Monk guide (and his other guides for Rangers, Bards, Wizards, and Druids) here.
wep's with enchants are nicer imo. Especially if u can swing Speed enchant on both weps, allowing for xtra attacks at full BAB during full round attack.
There's things to be said for both Fighters and Monks, but I wanted to point out that only a single Speed weapon operates in a round (i.e. only one extra attack, not two).
Expensive, but you could have a Amulet of Mighty Fists +Speed. 45k I think.
It's important to note that the monk is not a warrior class. Monks can, in the right circumstances, get somewhere near a fighter's offensive power, but cannot beat it.
The sad thing is that the monk isn't even the best user of combat manoeuvres, which I think he should be.
On the bright side, a monk's defence can be quite decent and he can make a great scout with his movement-enhancing abilities.
But no, he cannot hope to best a fighter armed with kukris, especially not at the levels where the fighter gets critical feats...
Right now I'm playing a crit mastery build fighter dual wielding Kukris.
At level 10 without any buffs my attacks are at +22/21/17/16 (I have a +2 kukri in mainhand and a +1 in offhand for now). I have a ridiculously high dex and have a 15-20 crit range.
My buddy has the Leadership feat and has a level 8 Monk cohort with the Improved Natural Weapon feat. I don't know what his +hit is for each attack, but I do know that if he hits all 4 times, he gets 8D8 + Strength damage. If I *crit* all four attacks I get 8D4 + Strength.
Granted, I chose a path with a small amount of versatility (the crit feats) and bleeding critical will add quite a bit of damage, but it still feels like the monk is quite a juggernaut at 2 levels lower than me.
Right now I'm playing a crit mastery build fighter dual wielding Kukris.
At level 10 without any buffs my attacks are at +22/21/17/16 (I have a +2 kukri in mainhand and a +1 in offhand for now). I have a ridiculously high dex and have a 15-20 crit range.
My buddy has the Leadership feat and has a level 8 Monk cohort with the Improved Natural Weapon feat. I don't know what his +hit is for each attack, but I do know that if he hits all 4 times, he gets 8D8 + Strength damage. If I *crit* all four attacks I get 8D4 + Strength.
Granted, I chose a path with a small amount of versatility (the crit feats) and bleeding critical will add quite a bit of damage, but it still feels like the monk is quite a juggernaut at 2 levels lower than me.
your extra damage from weapon specialization and weapon training should more than make up for it... with the magic on your weapons your base damage per hit should be considerably higher than that of the monk.
you did take weapons specialization and training in Kukri right?
Right now I'm playing a crit mastery build fighter dual wielding Kukris.
At level 10 without any buffs my attacks are at +22/21/17/16 (I have a +2 kukri in mainhand and a +1 in offhand for now). I have a ridiculously high dex and have a 15-20 crit range.
My buddy has the Leadership feat and has a level 8 Monk cohort with the Improved Natural Weapon feat. I don't know what his +hit is for each attack, but I do know that if he hits all 4 times, he gets 8D8 + Strength damage. If I *crit* all four attacks I get 8D4 + Strength.
Granted, I chose a path with a small amount of versatility (the crit feats) and bleeding critical will add quite a bit of damage, but it still feels like the monk is quite a juggernaut at 2 levels lower than me.
your extra damage from weapon specialization and weapon training should more than make up for it... with the magic on your weapons your base damage per hit should be considerably higher than that of the monk.
you did take weapons specialization and training in Kukri right?
Here's my build:
STR: 16
DEX: 20 (18 + 2 Racial)
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 11
CHA: 7
Dual wielding Kukris: 1D4 18-20/x2
1. Two Weapon Fighting / Weapon Finesse / Weapon Focus (Kukri)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Stand Still
4. Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
5. OPTIONAL
6. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7. Lunge
8. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
9. Improved Critical
10. Critical Focus
11. Bleeding Critical
12. Greater Weapon Specialization
13. Staggering Critical
14. Critical Mastery
15. Penetrating Strike
16. Greater Penetrating Strike
17. Stunning Critical
18. OPTIONAL
19. OPTIONAL
20. OPTIONAL
I pumped my Dex up to 26 (probably too high to be honest) with my 2 attribute increases at level 4 and 8 as well as a +4 dex item.
Dual wielding Kukris: 1D4 18-20/x2
Add double slice to the mix to synchronise the strength bonuses to damage. Power Attack is also helpful.
At level 10, you'd probably have at least +2 to strength from an item, maybe +4.
So the attack rolls are
+10 (BAB) +8 (Dex) -2 (TWF) +1 (Weapon - though you could have +2 weapons by now) +2 (Weapon Focus/Greater WF) +2 (Weapon Training)
...for +21/+21/+16/+16 (likely better than what the monk can up with, which means you're a lot more likely to hit)
Damage will be 1d4 + 5 (strength) +1 (weapon) +2 (Weapon Specialisation) +2 Weapon Training
...for 1d4+10 per hit, 15-20/x2 (with +4 to confirm, making confirming crits quite easy)
With power attack, that becomes +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d4+16 15-20/x2)
And what does the monk get? His attack rolls are probably worse, which means his statistical average damage is lower (you don't hurt what you don't hit). His str/dex is probably lower, too, because he needs to spread his ability scores around more than you do, and he probably has a lot less money than you do (a cohort is usually paid by his master, not the party).
So he has 2d8 as base damage dice (because he uses a feat that he officially cannot use, by the way, so he already gets house rule support), it isn't that big a deal.
You might "only" get 1d4 as base damage die (which means your average damage from the die is only 2.5, while his is 9), but your better weapons (which are cheaper than amulets of mighty fists), and your're a lot more likely to have a crit, which means you not only get to roll the d4 twice, but you also get to double that +10 (or +16 with power attack).
And the real fun is only about to start. Blinding enemies, staggering them, stunning them - statistically more than once per round (you are 30% likely to threaten a crit, have great chances of following through with it, and get 4 attacks - 5 or 6 at next level! - meaning that statistically, there's a more than 100% chance that you'll have a crit, and most critical feats will have some effect even if the enemy saves, and those durations will add up).
The monk might also have some abilities like stunning fist, but his are limited to X/day, and can be avoided altogether. He does get them sooner, but the time of your ascendency is nigh.
I was working on a kukri fighter build earlier this week and was surprised how effective and powerful it was, especially at levels 11+. However I would strongly suggest not going the weapon finesse route. Just crank strength, and put Dex just high enough to get all the TWF feats.
Also get Double Slice and Two-Weapon rend. With a good (26 say) Str score you're looking at a free 18 or so damage almost every round.
Edit: Here is my build-
Human 20 Point Buy.
Str- 34 10 points +2 Race, +5 Level, +5 Book, +6 Belt
Dex 24 7 points +6 Belt, +3 Book
Con 20 5 points +6 Belt
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8
Level Feat/Ability
1 Weapon Focus: Kukri, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Double-Slice
3 Improved Initiative
4 Weapon Specialization: Kukri
5 Weapon School: Small Blades +1, Improved Initiative
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Dodge
8 Improved Critical: Kukri
9 Critical Focus, Weapon School: Small Blades +2
10 Mobility
11 Two-Weapon Rend
12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13 Bleeding Critical
14 Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri
15 Tiring Critical
16 Greater Weapon Specialization: Kukri
17 Spring Attack
18 Critical Mastery
19 Weapon Mastery
20 Exausting Critical
Some things can be moved around, the Spring Attack chain is just my personal thing. Power attack, with a +5 kukri, on a critical, will do 3d4+111+2d6 Bleed. Full attack is pretty crazy.
That reminds me of a Gauntlet armed Barbarian I made in 3.5 (using some nice alternate class features I found scouring half a dozen Dragon books).
The unarmed Barbarian isn't very scary. Until he starts punching your face in.
I ended up going the weapon finesse route to get all of the TWF feats that are only available with a high dex score, otherwise I lose out on extra attacks (each attack is an extra chance to crit).
Level 5's "OPTIONAL" feat was Double Slice. Power attack is a good idea, just need to find a place to fit it in that makes sense.
KaeYoss, thanks for the info. I think once I start stacking the bleeding criticals, my damage potential will sky rocket as well. :)
Power attack is a good idea, just need to find a place to fit it in that makes sense.
Stand Still.
Stand Still.Power attack is a good idea, just need to find a place to fit it in that makes sense.
I was actually thinking about replacing combat reflexes. My GM doesn't really let enemies take AOOs if he can avoid it. So in 10 levels, I've never had the opportunity to use combat reflexes.
But I have to convince him to let me retrain one feat.
the mob dyingPart of me died when I read this.
sorry for killing u softly with my words. but in my game i laugh every time the monk has more attacks and nothing to hit
I ended up going the weapon finesse route to get all of the TWF feats that are only available with a high dex score, otherwise I lose out on extra attacks (each attack is an extra chance to crit).
Level 5's "OPTIONAL" feat was Double Slice. Power attack is a good idea, just need to find a place to fit it in that makes sense.
KaeYoss, thanks for the info. I think once I start stacking the bleeding criticals, my damage potential will sky rocket as well. :)
I understand, what I'm saying is there's no reason to choose. You can have a high dex and a high Str. Start out with a 15 or so in dex to get TWF asap, then rely on a +4 dex item. You only need dex 19 to get the highest PF legal TWF feat, and you can't get that until 11 BAB, by which time you should easily be able to afford a +4 dex belt, or a +4 Dex/+4 Str belt. It's eating a feat you don't need to use, and costing you damage. I don't feel like running the math but I'm guessing that a high str bonus on 6 other attacks will make up for the damage of that last off-hand attack at -10.
Trust me, double-slice, high str, power attack, and two weapon rend.
Everyone loves the Fighter, and no love for the Monk? Wow, that's actually surprising... true, the average fighter dishes out more damage than the average monk does per strike, but the Monk has a lot more going for him than you might think. A PF Monk now uses his full Monk level as his BAB whenever he uses flurry of blows or any combat maneuvers... this usually means that he does just fine with keeping up with the fighter's to-hit power. True, fighter gets weapon mastery, but monk is very good at taking away those weapons (Improved Disarm is a bonus feat, and he uses his class level to his combat maneuvers, not his usual 2/3 BAB). Plus, as mentioned, said Monk can burn a ki point each round for some extra perks, including an extra attack made using his LEVEL instead of his BAB in a flurry attack sequence... make at least one of those attacks a Stunning Fist when facing off against his Fighter opponent, and your Fighter will be stunned, sucking wind instead of attacking on his next turn... oh yes, and folks with the stunned condition automatically drop whatever they were holding, so he effectively just disarmed himself.
My players were just up at Jorgenfist in our Runelords campaign and fell afoul of a flock of harpy monks... man, after that battle, they HATED monks... Flyby attacks to snatch weapons using Improved Disarm, then throwing them off of a nearby 200 ft. cliff... stunning fists to make players lose their actions, then snatching the dropped weapons and throwing them away from the battle. High saving throws and Improved Evasion so lightning and fire attacks were almost useless. I'm not saying a monk is better than a Fighter... but they are definitely cool in their own right, and played correctly, they can often prove an equal (or even superior) match to a fighter opponent in a one-on-one fight.
Everyone loves the Fighter, and no love for the Monk? Wow, that's actually surprising... true, the average fighter dishes out more damage than the average monk does per strike, but the Monk has a lot more going for him than you might think. A PF Monk now uses his full Monk level as his BAB whenever he uses flurry of blows or any combat maneuvers... this usually means that he does just fine with keeping up with the fighter's to-hit power. True, fighter gets weapon mastery, but monk is very good at taking away those weapons (Improved Disarm is a bonus feat, and he uses his class level to his combat maneuvers, not his usual 2/3 BAB). Plus, as mentioned, said Monk can burn a ki point each round for some extra perks, including an extra attack made using his LEVEL instead of his BAB in a flurry attack sequence... make at least one of those attacks a Stunning Fist when facing off against his Fighter opponent, and your Fighter will be stunned, sucking wind instead of attacking on his next turn... oh yes, and folks with the stunned condition automatically drop whatever they were holding, so he effectively just disarmed himself.
So he can occasionally pretend he has a full BAB (you know, like the Fighter) in specific circumstances and that makes him a comparable choice..?
Everyone loves the Fighter, and no love for the Monk? Wow, that's actually surprising... true, the average fighter dishes out more damage than the average monk does per strike, but the Monk has a lot more going for him than you might think. A PF Monk now uses his full Monk level as his BAB whenever he uses flurry of blows or any combat maneuvers... this usually means that he does just fine with keeping up with the fighter's to-hit power. True, fighter gets weapon mastery, but monk is very good at taking away those weapons (Improved Disarm is a bonus feat, and he uses his class level to his combat maneuvers, not his usual 2/3 BAB). Plus, as mentioned, said Monk can burn a ki point each round for some extra perks, including an extra attack made using his LEVEL instead of his BAB in a flurry attack sequence... make at least one of those attacks a Stunning Fist when facing off against his Fighter opponent, and your Fighter will be stunned, sucking wind instead of attacking on his next turn... oh yes, and folks with the stunned condition automatically drop whatever they were holding, so he effectively just disarmed himself.So he can occasionally pretend he has a full BAB (you know, like the Fighter) in specific circumstances and that makes him a comparable choice..?
Wow. Did you only read the parts you wanted to read?
Everyone loves the Fighter, and no love for the Monk? Wow, that's actually surprising
Not to me. The monk is no adequate warrior. He should be, but he's not.
Monks should be the best manoeuvre users, but fighters (and, in some circumstances, oracles of war) are better.
... true, the average fighter dishes out more damage than the average monk does per strike
And is a lot more likely to hit, which puts him even more ahead in the "statistical average damage per round" race.
A PF Monk now uses his full Monk level as his BAB whenever he uses flurry of blows or any combat maneuvers...
If he has to move first and doesn't want to trip or something like that, he gets the weaker BAB. If he wants to use stuff like Spring Attack or Scorpion Style, he gets the weaker BAB.
And speaking of manoevures: For many manoeuvres (including two of the most interesting - trip and disarm) he needs to depend on yet another ability score in order to get the best abilities. You can get Improved Disarm/Trip as a bonus feat, but if you want Greater Trip/Disarm, you need to fulfill all prerequisites, which include Int 13, Combat Expertise, and a minimum BAB he has to meet with his actual BAB, not his flurry pseudo-BAB.
this usually means that he does just fine with keeping up with the fighter's to-hit power.
Fighters have several key advantages here:
All in all, it means that the fighter's attacks hit more often, and the damage is also very well. A flurry of Misses is no match for a fighter's fewer but surer attacks.
True, fighter gets weapon mastery, but monk is very good at taking away those weapons (Improved Disarm is a bonus feat, and he uses his class level to his combat maneuvers, not his usual 2/3 BAB).
The fighter is very good at keeping those weapons: Using his usual BAB (which is already full), his Strength and Dexterity (which are both primary attributes and can be focussed on far better than a monk's can) and, of course, weapon training. Not easy at all to disarm a fighter.
Plus, disarm won't help you if we're not talking about a duel between fighters and monks, but about a competition where monks and fighters see who can defeat more enemies. You can't disarm a monster's claws...
make at least one of those attacks a Stunning Fist when facing off against his Fighter opponent, and your Fighter will be stunned
The fighter might be stunned. If he makes his fortitude save (a strong save for fighters, and based of one of the fighter's favoured attributes), you will just have used up one of your daily uses.
On the other hand, if a higher-level fighter wielding a kukri, scimitar, falchion or curveblade makes one of his many critical hits against you, his critical feat will kick in at least one round - or more, if you fail your save.
Sure, he has to wait until higher levels to get the good stuff, but still, hoping you can beat the fighter at his favourite game before he reduces you to a shredded cadaver is not an assured winning strategy at any time.
My players were just up at Jorgenfist in our Runelords campaign and fell afoul of a flock of harpy monks... man, after that battle, they HATED monks... Flyby attacks to snatch weapons using Improved Disarm, then throwing them off of a nearby 200 ft. cliff... stunning fists to make players lose their actions, then snatching the dropped weapons and throwing them away from the battle.
Make those harpy fighters and they already have greater disarm, getting the weapons out of your reach at the same moment as disarming you without having to make a detour over a cliff.
Plus, we're talking harpies here. Stunning fist? Pfft. They start singing and rip you to shreds while you just stand there... }>
I'm not saying a monk is better than a Fighter... but they are definitely cool in their own right, and played correctly, they can often prove an equal (or even superior) match to a fighter opponent in a one-on-one fight.
I'm not saying the monk is crap, but I am saying that he cannot match a fighter's martial prowess on equal footing, i.e. both characters are created under the same conditions and with the same expertise, and played equally well and smartly.
The last part is important. For example, a GM of mine has often complained in the past weeks that the paladin class is way beyond broken because it is not only untouchable, but also makes utterly ridiculous amounts of damage.
What the GM doesn't see is that he doesn't have a real point of reference, as other warrior characters he bases his assumptions on are from other Campaigns (with different power levels - and character levels) or even from previous rulesets, and created and played by less experienced players.
I'm not saying I'm a munchkin, but my characters tend to be solidly built and good at the things they're supposed to be good at - others that have played warriors are often a lot less experienced and knowledgeable of the rules and their nuances. I also know my tactics, when to be where and what to do to maximise my impact, another thing those newbloods don't have the hang of yet.
Oh, and I'm often so lucky with my rolls that I begin to suspect that Serenrae has blessed me and Shakeer. I mean, rolling 20, 19, 20, 20 for attacks in a roll (with bless weapon, so I didn't have to confirm the crits) is just godly!