| SwissArmyGnome |
Well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, but the party of my game has forced me to look up some rules that I didn't expect to need.
The general scenario is thus: having raided the fortress and slain practically every goblin and bugbear in sight (they did spare the goblin mothers and babies), the party has uncovered the secret throne room of the "Goblin King" (no, he doesn't look like David Bowie), a 9th-level sorcerer. Braving traps and confusion spells, they managed to knock his invisible ass out.
He's been knocked to -5 hp, but was treated and stabilized. Now, according to the rules, after an hour he makes a DC 10 Constitution check (minus a penalty equal to his negative hitpoints) to regain consciousness (I already rolled it, he makes it). The trouble is that he also has 20 points of non-lethal damage. Since that exceeds his current hitpoints by 25, shouldn't he remain unconscious until that heals or does the check he made to recover wake him up regardless?
Also, what happens if while conscious but disabled at -5 he takes a standard action and loses another hitpoint? Does he go unconscious, or can he just keep going till he's dead? I'm thinking that when they try to interrogate him, he's going to have some fun with Lesser Geas.
| Rezdave |
Swiss ...
Most people don't really understand how non-lethal damage works. Whereas "Lethal" damage subtracts from your HP total, "Non-Lethal Damage" counts up from 0 until it equals or exceeds your current total HP. It does not add to your total damage, but is counted separately. You should review p.146 of the PH.
He's been knocked to -5 hp, but ... also has 20 points of non-lethal damage
Question - Was he really dropped to -5hp or was he knocked to 15 hp with an additional 20 points of non-lethal damage?
after an hour he makes a DC 10 Constitution check (minus a penalty equal to his negative hitpoints) to regain consciousness (I already rolled it, he makes it). Shouldn't he remain unconscious until that heals or does the check he made to recover wake him up regardless?
Being a 9th level Sorcerer, he recovers 9hp of non-lethal damage per hour. It will take him over 2 hours to shed 20 points of non-lethal damage.
If he is actually at -5 hp, then even if the non-lethal goes away he remains unconscious since he's still at negative HP until he has healed for an entire day, bringing him up to 4hp.
If he is at 15 hp with 20 points of non-lethal damage, then after 1 hour he will awaken with 15 hp and 11 remaining points of non-lethal damage left to shed in the following 2 hours. Taking any combination of 4 hp of lethal and non-lethal damage will stagger him once more, while 5 hp will put him on the ground.
Also, what happens if while conscious but disabled at -5 he takes a standard action and loses another hitpoint?
Per RAW he can't remain conscious at negative HP unless he has the Diehard feat, which is pretty unlikely for a Sorcerer. He can only remain conscious and staggered at 0hp, and at -1 will fall unconscious.
I'm thinking that when they try to interrogate him, he's going to have some fun with Lesser Geas.
If I had to take a guess, I would put money on your group counting HP damage incorrectly and the Goblin King actually being at 15 hp. The party could certainly be in for quite a surprise when he becomes conscious. It he's smart and figures out that they are going to question him, then he'll play groggy for a couple hours to shed his non-lethal damage (an Sor9 should have a half-decent Bluff check if only by virtue of his CHA).
HTH ... but I expect you'll be back with questions. It's confusing, I know, but you'll get the answers here.
Rez
| SwissArmyGnome |
First, thanks for the detailed response! I know I run on a little bit with my words, and it's nice to see that my commitment to detail is returned. It's also great to have a think-tank to help tackle these sticky rules issues without consulting with some more experienced players (and thus spoiling possible surprises)
However, I should have been a little bit more clear, so here goes:
We're running Pathfinder, so I'm not sure if the dying/disabled rules are different (I know he's alive until his negative hitpoints equal his Con score, instead of a flat -10; his Con is pretty good too). From the Combat section of the Core Rulebook (p 191), a tended character who has gone from dying to stabilized is given a check to wake up every hour after stabilizing. At this point they are treated as disabled and staggered. My interpretation is that such a character could take more damage (as from taking standard actions) without immediately going unconscious, since a disabled person would be completely useless otherwise (and I'd grant that to a PC, if it ever came up). Now this would be good enough for me, but the non-lethal damage is compounding the problem.
I've been counting the non-lethal damage correctly. He's absolutely at -5 hp, with 20 non-lethal points on top of that (they pounded him good... two more failed Will saves or an extra round to cast Blink, and it would have been a different story).
Now, I'm running this game, so I've got to make a ruling on this one way or the other. This is my first game that I've run, so I lack experience, but I'm a pretty good rules monkey so I have some confidence. Normally I'd leave this sort of thing up to a rough interpretation sprinkled with GM fiat, but I've realized that this could actually have serious implications (in whether he can manage to escape before they get any information out of him via some insane Intimidation checks), and I want to give both the players and my Goblin King the fairest chance allowed by the rules. I take it these questions don't come up very often because most PCs are just trying to outright kill the monsters, and PCs typically have access to magical healing.
So it comes down to whether he can be forced awake before he's in positive hitpoint territory (for purposes of not hurting himself for taking actions), or whether he gets 8 hours of sleep for spell restoration (if the PCs make the mistake of allowing him 15 minutes of meditation), or whether it rolls over to the next day for purposes of his Bloodline powers. I do like the idea of him feigning unconsciousness, but he's got no ranks in Bluff, and I know some of the party have Sense Motive so I can't rely on that.
Incidentally, he's got two castings of Lesser Geas left in him (verbal component only, so he can do it if he can speak), hopefully I can come up with a water-tight command to give that will help him escape. He's also got 5 rounds of his Fey Bloodline power Fleeting Glance, which I assume will also make his bindings invisible. Maybe if he has some alone time with one of the PCs, he can Geas him or her to help him safely escape, go invisible, and have him or her just walk out of the dungeon with him. I'm really excited to see what happens, actually, and I really want to surprise the party with the tricks he's got left!
| Rezdave |
We're running Pathfinder
In that case, I urge you to repost this question in the Pathfinder Rules Questions forum rather than the 3.5/OGL forum. Furthermore, I urge you to make more clear in your description that you are counting lethal and non-lethal damage correctly, just to remove that bit of doubt. It's confusing for a lot of people, and you don't need that separate issue muddling responses.
Personally, I'm too tired to dig up and interpret the PF rules for you here, much less get into any discussion of whether or not rules should be trumped by story or plot, so I'm off to bed. If you re-post in the proper forum, I'm sure you'll get a good response before I'm even back on the boards again :-)
Best of luck,
Rez
| SwissArmyGnome |
Well, good point, and I suppose that was a mistake in forum choices on my part (is it me or is the navigation on this site confusing? I simply couldn't find that page originally).
Nonetheless, I'm more used to the standard 3.5 rules so I'm comfortable using those rulings to fill in the holes in Pathfinder. Plus we're running a different game with those rules too, so this sort of information is still useful (if not immediately relevant).
So, with that, thanks again. I do think I like the conclusion that the non-lethal damage has to wear off first (it buys him more time for something to happen). But I've still got 5 days to figure that out for certain.