There seem to be so many threads about Attacks of Opportunity and when they apply that I am asking myself: Why are they even in the game? How do they improve the gaming experience? In my own experience, they´re a cumbersome and unwieldy rule. D20 variants without them seem to flow much nicer.
An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?
Its a game mechanic to add an element of "defensive fire" to combat. No, you cant run around in a circle behind him to attack. No, you cant just cast a spell with a horde of bad guys in your face, etc. It is intended to give the sense that everything is happening simultaneously.
There seem to be so many threads about Attacks of Opportunity and when they apply that I am asking myself: Why are they even in the game? How do they improve the gaming experience? In my own experience, they´re a cumbersome and unwieldy rule. D20 variants without them seem to flow much nicer.
An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?
You'll get all the speedy guys just running right past your front-line fighter types (unless you have enough to make a continuous wall) to get at the squishies. You'll get the rogue circling the enemy at will to get into flanking position.
There seem to be so many threads about Attacks of Opportunity and when they apply that I am asking myself: Why are they even in the game? How do they improve the gaming experience? In my own experience, they´re a cumbersome and unwieldy rule. D20 variants without them seem to flow much nicer.
An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?
AoO mean:
"Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down ortakes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her
can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for
free."
In a turn-based initiative system, one enemy can go past your fighter easily, and he has no chance of stopping the former.
In a turn-based initiative system, your fighter can't attack a wizard when he begins casting, or drinking a potion, etc. in order to disrupt that action.
In a turn-based initiative system, your fighter can't attack a distracted enemy who doesn't threat him with a weapon (crossbow loading, stabilize friend...).
In a turn-based initiative system, your fighter wielding a longspear can't attack an unarmed enemy that approaches him before that enemy attacks the fighter.
Thanks for the responses!
I have to clarify that I´m not against using AoO´s, i just find they´re a little too complicated sometimes and have the potential to disturbe the natural flow of combat.
Now to my second question: Would it unbalance Pathfinder to remove them from play? Has anyone done this?
Thanks for the responses!
I have to clarify that I´m not against using AoO´s, i just find they´re a little too complicated sometimes and have the potential to disturbe the natural flow of combat.
Now to my second question: Would it unbalance Pathfinder to remove them from play? Has anyone done this?
I have not done this in dnd, but i have seen it in other systems. In Mutants and masterminds comes to mind.
The main effect is one very important aspect of combat. It becomes impossible to prevent or even disuade someone from moving past you. Defence of a person or position becomes impossible. How does this translate to pathfinder?
The most glaring issue has already been brought up, the 'frontline' guys like a fighter or barbarian or what have you, are unable to effectively 'protect' the more vulnerable members of the party. In particular casters and archers. The people who wish to remain behind, especially when faced with a particularly dangerous threat (like a dragon). Or on the flip side, the Big Bad's minions cannot stop the paladin from marching straight up to him and smiting him sensless.
It becomes impossible to prevent someone from escaping. This is the issue I faced directly in a d20 system without Attacks of Opportunity. If someone wishes to run, you have no way to stop them. Unless you are considerably faster, you will barely get to attack them if you give chase. So if the bad guy (or the good guy) is trying to escape with the captured princess/priceless treasure/powerful artifact you cannot stop them.
It becomes very difficult to stop someone from entering a given space. Guards like to stop you from entering the thing they are guarding. Warriors form battle lines to keep their rear guard protected. Without AoO, this falls apart real fast. You cannot easily defend a position, place or person.
You cannot disrupt mages. Sure its not hard at higher levels, but at low to mid levels, especially if you take disruptive and spellbreaker feats, stoping a mage from casting by threatening him becomes a real possibility. Without it, fighting types are completely at a mage's mercy.
Archery becomes the superior method of close in combat. Without AoO, there is little reason not to use a bow with rapid shot and many shot in just about every situation. It does more damage statistically, and you can have cheap special ability backups (silvered arrows, adamantine arrows, orc bane, etc, you can have a couple of these lying around in a magic quiver rather readily as opposed to having a separate weapon for each.
Reach weapons become completely pointless. Without AoO, reach is a near non factor. It is factored into price and stats of weapons, and it is also factored into CR of monsters. In the game, reach is a big deal because you get that shot on the enemy before they get to you. You might stop them cold, or just do some damage, but it provides a considerable advantage. Without AoO you have to reconsider many monster's CRs and many weapons stats.
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Trying to visualize a battle where the Bad Guy is at the rear of a band of 50 vicious orcs, directing his troops, and my monk just saunters on by, waving to the orc troops as they gape, unable to stop him. When I get to the Bad Guy, I punch him...hard. I've got 5 attacks coming next round and he's toast.
Meanwhile, my fighter with Combat Reflexes has blocked all but a 5' section of the barricade with his body, using the barricade for cover in a clever defensive maneuver. Anyone who wants by is going to have to get by him.
Except 30 orcs walk right by him, wave, and kill the wizard, who stands stunned as he wonders why the heck they had a barricade and chokepoint in the first place. The Fighter wonders why he wasted the Feat.
Back to the Bad Guy. While I stand dumbfounded, he takes off his backpack and rummages through it (move action) to find his staff of PC slaying. Once I've given him a chance to get it out, he moves back 20'. I'm helpless and can only watch him move out of range of my fists of boss smashing.
Then the orcs begin their hit and run tactics. They whack me and run away. Gosh I wish I could do something when they expose themselves like that, but again I am stunned in disbelief at their audacity. One of the orcs has the gall to string his bow in front of me then fire it 2" from my face. No kiddin'! Another pulled out a portable keg, poured himself a cup, and drank a toast to my impending doom! Argh!
Finally, my turn. Well, I wanted to hit the bad guy 5 times, but he moved away. Shoot. So I run up and get 1 good attack. He whacks me with his staff, then moves away again so I can't get my 5 attacks. Now I'm pissed and catch up with him again. What the frick? Now he's dropped to the ground (free action) prone and is kicking and mewling like a baby to mock my efforts. When he tries to get up...oh wait, I can't do anything but watch as he crawls to his feet (move) and then runs away another 20'. I still can't get my 5 attacks as I move to catch him.
AoO, a must.
Trying to visualize a battle where the Bad Guy is at the rear of a band of 50 vicious orcs, directing his troops, and my monk just saunters on by, waving to the orc troops as they gape, unable to stop him. When I get to the Bad Guy, I punch him...hard. I've got 5 attacks coming next round and he's toast.
Meanwhile, my fighter with Combat Reflexes has blocked all but a 5' section of the barricade with his body, using the barricade for cover in a clever defensive maneuver. Anyone who wants by is going to have to get by him.
Except 30 orcs walk right by him, wave, and kill the wizard, who stands stunned as he wonders why the heck they had a barricade and chokepoint in the first place. The Fighter wonders why he wasted the Feat.
Back to the Bad Guy. While I stand dumbfounded, he takes off his backpack and rummages through it (move action) to find his staff of PC slaying. Once I've given him a chance to get it out, he moves back 20'. I'm helpless and can only watch him move out of range of my fists of boss smashing.
Then the orcs begin their hit and run tactics. They whack me and run away. Gosh I wish I could do something when they expose themselves like that, but again I am stunned in disbelief at their audacity. One of the orcs has the gall to string his bow in front of me then fire it 2" from my face. No kiddin'! Another pulled out a portable keg, poured himself a cup, and drank a toast to my impending doom! Argh!
Finally, my turn. Well, I wanted to hit the bad guy 5 times, but he moved away. Shoot. So I run up and get 1 good attack. He whacks me with his staff, then moves away again so I can't get my 5 attacks. Now I'm pissed and catch up with him again. What the frick? Now he's dropped to the ground (free action) prone and is kicking and mewling like a baby to mock my efforts. When he tries to get up...oh wait, I can't do anything but watch as he crawls to his feet (move) and then runs away another 20'. I still can't get my 5 attacks as I move to catch him.
AoO, a must.
Have you even tried to visulize this. LOL!!! the bad guy crying like a baby mocking the monk. LOL
There seem to be so many threads about Attacks of Opportunity and when they apply that I am asking myself: Why are they even in the game? How do they improve the gaming experience? In my own experience, they´re a cumbersome and unwieldy rule. D20 variants without them seem to flow much nicer.
An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?
In earlier editions, actions took time to accomplish. A wizard would start casting a spell on his initiative number, and it would take so many segments to complete. (d6 in first edition, d10 in second) Weapons had speed and so taking fast weapons, you could walk up on a wizard while he was casting his spell and disrupt it.
Third edition removed the simulation of actions taking time in combat and replaced it with a turn based initiative structure. In order to still allow characters to affect the actions of other units, AoO were added.
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An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?
You've seen the reason not to go that route, so let me offer an alternative to AoOs.
If you want to take an action that would provoke an AoO, you cannot take it until you would no longer provoke.
This means if you're in melee, you're in melee until you get out of it, by five foot step or withdrawl. If the wizard has three guys on him, he's not casting. And the archer isn't shooting his bow either.
Extreme? Yes. But AoOs are integrated into 3.x, so you don't have much choice.
There are some games that do seem to benefit from the lack of them, like Mutants and Masterminds. Those sort of games are on a whole different level of playing though.
An additional question for the rules experts: What would happen if I simply threw them out the window in PRPG? Not for grapple attempts, not for sifting through your backpack with Asmodeus in front of you, NEVER?You've seen the reason not to go that route, so let me offer an alternative to AoOs.
If you want to take an action that would provoke an AoO, you cannot take it until you would no longer provoke.
This means if you're in melee, you're in melee until you get out of it, by five foot step or withdrawl. If the wizard has three guys on him, he's not casting. And the archer isn't shooting his bow either.
Extreme? Yes. But AoOs are integrated into 3.x, so you don't have much choice.
That mirrors the way many computer rpg's work, in my opinion. You can't do or complete an action until all the conditions are right for you to do so.
Trying to visualize a battle where the Bad Guy is at the rear of a band of 50 vicious orcs, directing his troops, and my monk just saunters on by, waving to the orc troops as they gape, unable to stop him. When I get to the Bad Guy, I punch him...hard. I've got 5 attacks coming next round and he's toast.
Meanwhile, my fighter with Combat Reflexes has blocked all but a 5' section of the barricade with his body, using the barricade for cover in a clever defensive maneuver. Anyone who wants by is going to have to get by him.
Except 30 orcs walk right by him, wave, and kill the wizard, who stands stunned as he wonders why the heck they had a barricade and chokepoint in the first place. The Fighter wonders why he wasted the Feat.
Back to the Bad Guy. While I stand dumbfounded, he takes off his backpack and rummages through it (move action) to find his staff of PC slaying. Once I've given him a chance to get it out, he moves back 20'. I'm helpless and can only watch him move out of range of my fists of boss smashing.
Then the orcs begin their hit and run tactics. They whack me and run away. Gosh I wish I could do something when they expose themselves like that, but again I am stunned in disbelief at their audacity. One of the orcs has the gall to string his bow in front of me then fire it 2" from my face. No kiddin'! Another pulled out a portable keg, poured himself a cup, and drank a toast to my impending doom! Argh!
Finally, my turn. Well, I wanted to hit the bad guy 5 times, but he moved away. Shoot. So I run up and get 1 good attack. He whacks me with his staff, then moves away again so I can't get my 5 attacks. Now I'm pissed and catch up with him again. What the frick? Now he's dropped to the ground (free action) prone and is kicking and mewling like a baby to mock my efforts. When he tries to get up...oh wait, I can't do anything but watch as he crawls to his feet (move) and then runs away another 20'. I still can't get my 5 attacks as I move to catch him.
AoO, a must.
EXACTLY!
I've removed AoO from play with PF. Haven't seen any of the scenarios of doom and gloom pop up in play. AoO certainly aren't a must for the system, and removing them does change the game, but it doesn't ruin it.
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Your group must be very good about staying in character in combat. It would not have as much effect on the game as long as the characters were still afraid of getting hit.
'I can't dart around this guy to get the wizard, he might cut my head off!'
It when the characters start metagaming or are mindless that these things happen.
'Ha, this mook can't hit me, time to pass him up and stab that mage in the back.'
And then of course the spellcasters have to believe the warrior in their face is a threat. 'I can't concentrate with that sword in my face' rather than 'I'll just step away and obliterate this worm.'
These are the make-it-or-break-it things.
It when the characters start metagaming or are mindless that these things happen.
'Ha, this mook can't hit me, time to pass him up and stab that mage in the back.'
And then of course the spellcasters have to believe the warrior in their face is a threat. 'I can't concentrate with that sword in my face' rather than 'I'll just step away and obliterate this worm.'
Metagaming is exactly what AoO encourage. "That mook is still flat-footed. I'll rush past him." or "He's already made his one AoO for the round. I'll rush past him." or "That fighter looks mean. I'll just take a 5-foot step back and cast." or "That fighter looks mean. I'll just cast defensively." Then there's my all-time favorite: "I'll follow this zig-zaggy path, thus completely bypassing his threatened squares."
IME, about the only thing AoO do is slow combat down.
AoO certainly aren't a must for the system, and removing them does change the game, but it doesn't ruin it.
yes, and like just about any other rule, it's up to you whether you use them or not. if you're the type of dm who can handle tons of rules and variables without getting confused (like monte cook), then use attacks of opportunity. on the other hand, if you're the type of dm who is easily overwhelmed by too much information (like me), then don't use attacks of opportunity.
...if you're the type of dm who is easily overwhelmed by too much information (like me), then don't use attacks of opportunity.
For me, not so much overwhelmed as just bothered by the metagamey nonsense that I've constantly seen associated with AoO. Add to that the almost-mandatory maxing out of certain skills to avoid AoO. For example, with my DM, we're playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Our warmage cannot fail a check to cast defensively. My rogue can routinely hit the high 20s to low 30s on Tumble checks.
When I DM PF, there are no AoO. I modded a few feats, such as Combat Reflexes. So far, while the dynamics have changed, the game is working just fine. Combats are quicker and more varied. Last session, the party's two psions were separated from the rest of the group. They stumbled upon the BBEG sorcerer. Realizing that he would toast them in a magic-to-psionics brawl, the psions grappled him and pummeled him to death. He still got off a few spells while in the grapple, thanks to his Still Spell feat.
If AoO had still be in place, I doubt the players would've gone for the grapple. Instead, they'd tried to run, and that's much less fun than three weak BAB casters rolling around on the floor, kicking, biting, and gouging.
:)
It when the characters start metagaming or are mindless that these things happen.
'Ha, this mook can't hit me, time to pass him up and stab that mage in the back.'
And then of course the spellcasters have to believe the warrior in their face is a threat. 'I can't concentrate with that sword in my face' rather than 'I'll just step away and obliterate this worm.'
Metagaming is exactly what AoO encourage. "That mook is still flat-footed. I'll rush past him." or "He's already made his one AoO for the round. I'll rush past him." or "That fighter looks mean. I'll just take a 5-foot step back and cast." or "That fighter looks mean. I'll just cast defensively." Then there's my all-time favorite: "I'll follow this zig-zaggy path, thus completely bypassing his threatened squares."
IME, about the only thing AoO do is slow combat down.
"That mook is surprised so I shouldn't hit him now." "He's hitting on the rogue I shouldn't run past him while he's distracted."... etc... these are perfectly solid decisions in character for people to make. To not make them would make less since than to make them (as my re-direction of your quote was supposed to show).
Honestly those sound like sound in game tactical decisions for a person in combat to make. Occasionally you get it wrong and eat an AoO anyways (cause the opponent has combat reflexes for example). But I've seen people decent to simply go around someone without engaging them before on a zig-zaggy path and that was in real life.
It only seems metagaming to you because you don't realize that these are the exact sort of decisions that take place in combat. It is not where near as "terrifying and fast paced with lots of confusion" as most people thing, especially not in small skirmish like encounter that make up the vast bulk of D&D.
It only seems metagaming to you because you don't realize that these are the exact sort of decisions that take place in combat. It is not where near as "terrifying and fast paced with lots of confusion" as most people thing, especially not in small skirmish like encounter that make up the vast bulk of D&D.
It might seem like I don't realize what combat is like, but confirming that assumption would require more knowledge about what I was doing in the U.S. Army from 1985 to the end of 1992 than is widely available.
:p
That aside, I've made it no secret that I got rid of AoO largely because I don't like them. Never have. I've tolerated them since 3.0. I'll still tolerate them as a player. I don't feel so tolerant anymore when DMing. Out of all the RPGs I've played since 1978, exactly two have had AoO. They aren't an essential part of the combat system, and PF can run just fine without them.
That's all I'm saying. :)