Camel spit save DC?

[oceanika]

The camel animal companion has two offensive options - a 1d4 bite or a spit attack (ranged touch attack, target is sickened for 1d4 rounds, range 10 feet).

There is no mention of a save DC, how should I be playing this druid companion's spit attack?

[Tom Baumbach]

oceanika wrote:

The camel animal companion has two offensive options - a 1d4 bite or a spit attack (ranged touch attack, target is sickened for 1d4 rounds, range 10 feet).

There is no mention of a save DC, how should I be playing this druid companion's spit attack?

Generally speaking, if something requires an attack roll, it doesn't *also* allow a saving throw. (Now if there's extra stuff on top of whatever you make the attack roll for, *that* might have a saving throw - poison, disease, etc.)

[Joshua J. Frost]

Moving this to the appropriate forum.

[Doug Doug]

oceanika wrote:

The camel animal companion has two offensive options - a 1d4 bite or a spit attack (ranged touch attack, target is sickened for 1d4 rounds, range 10 feet).

There is no mention of a save DC, how should I be playing this druid companion's spit attack?

My suggestion would be 1/2 the animal's HD (rounded down) plus its constitution modifier, plus 10. The save would be against Fortitude. That's a fairly standard DC. Having no save on a ranged touch attack for an animal that can do it every round is unbalanced. If I were the GM I would add 1d4 rounds between spit attacks, like a breath weapon recharge.

[Sean FitzSimon]

Doug Doug wrote:

oceanika wrote:

The camel animal companion has two offensive options - a 1d4 bite or a spit attack (ranged touch attack, target is sickened for 1d4 rounds, range 10 feet).

There is no mention of a save DC, how should I be playing this druid companion's spit attack?

My suggestion would be 1/2 the animal's HD (rounded down) plus its constitution modifier, plus 10. The save would be against Fortitude. That's a fairly standard DC. Having no save on a ranged touch attack for an animal that can do it every round is unbalanced. If I were the GM I would add 1d4 rounds between spit attacks, like a breath weapon recharge.

I would like to heartily disagree. The camel sucks, hands down. However, the ability to do a "ranged" sicken (10 feet is practically melee) once each round is all it really has going for it. Yes, there's no save, but there really shouldn't be. Sickened is one of the lesser status effects- it's a -2 to everything. Decent, yes, but you're getting this instead of a flanking partner and/or some decent damage. Unbalanced? Hardly.

Keep in mind that bards get a no-save fear effect to make enemies within 30' shaken, which is nearly the same condition as sickened (except no penalty to weapon damage rolls). Sure, they get it for a limited number of rounds, but they don't even have to roll to hit (there's no chance for failure). Also, anyone with the Dazzling Display feat can do this as well, sacrificing their whole turn to intimidate (make shaken) every enemy within 30' for 1+ rounds. Sure, they have to succeed on an intimidate check, but it shouldn't be too hard for most characters.

[oceanika]

tom baumbach wrote:

Generally speaking, if something requires an attack roll, it doesn't *also* allow a saving throw.

This seems to fit the larger pattern - you are choosing between the ability to do physical damage and the ability to inflict a condition.

sean fitzsimon wrote:

but you're getting this instead of a flanking partner

Now why couldn't a camel be a flanking buddy?

[angryscrub]

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

I would like to heartily disagree. The camel sucks, hands down. However, the ability to do a "ranged" sicken (10 feet is practically melee) once each round is all it really has going for it. Yes, there's no save, but there really shouldn't be. Sickened is one of the lesser status effects- it's a -2 to everything. Decent, yes, but you're getting this instead of a flanking partner and/or some decent damage. Unbalanced? Hardly.

Keep in mind that bards get a no-save fear effect to make enemies within 30' shaken, which is nearly the same condition as sickened (except no penalty to weapon damage rolls). Sure, they get it for a limited number of rounds, but they don't even have to roll to hit (there's no chance for failure). Also, anyone with the Dazzling Display feat can do this as well, sacrificing their whole turn to intimidate (make shaken) every enemy within 30' for 1+ rounds. Sure, they have to succeed on an intimidate check, but it shouldn't be too hard for most characters.

yes, but keep in mind, there are plenty of druid spells that require a save. a druid concentrating on spellcasting doesn't need a flanking buddy, but a free debuff that doesn't require an action on his part is nice.

and holy crap, i just looked at the camel. 18 str? 16 dex? at first level, camel animal companion gets a bite attack at +5 to hit for 1d4+6 damage plus a ranged touch attack debuff at +4 to hit? that's just sick, and totally does not suck.

advance the camel to a 3 int and have it take point blank shot, rapid shot, far shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, weapon focus spit. by lvl 20, the camel has a +20 ranged touch attack with no boosts or items from the druid. +18/+18 on a full attack. check the bestiary. the camel, with no help, no buffs, no items, can basically autosicken two enemies a round, at range, no save. that is pretty much the complete opposite of suck actually.