Ok, I just have a simple question. In the core book, the conditions appendices say that the 'grappled' condition gives a -4 penalty to dexterity (p 567). Meanwhile, in the combat chapter, table 8-6 states that a grappling defender loses any dexterity bonus to AC if his attacker isn't grappling (p 195). So, my question is: which one is right?
I would say they both are, as they are not actually contradictory. Being grappled gives you a -4 Dex penalty, which affects plenty of things (including your CMD against future grapple checks). When you are attacked by someone outside of the grapple you lose you Dex bonus to AC, which is an entirely separate effect.
I suppose that could be true but the same table says that entangled characters get a -4 penalty to dexterity. Why doesn't it says the same thing about grappling? It seems to me that both sources would state all the effects of being grappled.
*shrug* Maybe they ran out of space? Or just didn't think of it? I don't really know. Table 8-6 doesn't mention all of the effects of being Entangled either, which leads me to suspect there was just a lack of space. Entangled characters still retain their Dex bonus to AC, so it would be a lot more important to note that it was reduced.
Ok, I just have a simple question. In the core book, the conditions appendices say that the 'grappled' condition gives a -4 penalty to dexterity (p 567). Meanwhile, in the combat chapter, table 8-6 states that a grappling defender loses any dexterity bonus to AC if his attacker isn't grappling (p 195). So, my question is: which one is right?
is this still the case after the errata? I thought they had fixed this.
Has this question been answered yet? It came up in our game tonight.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
It's only a -4 penalty to Dexterity, not loss of Dex. bonus to AC. That table is a leftover from the SRD that Paizo forgot about.
EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the table, it specifically says (attacker is not), meaning if you initiated the grapple, you suffer -4 Dexterity penalty, but if you're the defender, you lose Dex. bonus to AC...odd. So does the defender suffer -4 Dexterity penalty AND lose Dexterity bonus to AC? I guess it makes sense. The Dex. penalty would affect Reflex saves, and it should be tougher to make one grappled. It's news to me, as this isn't specifically stated in the Grapple entry under "IF you're grappled"
|
It's only a -4 penalty to Dexterity, not loss of Dex. bonus to AC. That table is a leftover from the SRD that Paizo forgot about.
EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the table, it specifically says (attacker is not), meaning if you initiated the grapple, you suffer -4 Dexterity penalty, but if you're the defender, you lose Dex. bonus to AC...odd. So does the defender suffer -4 Dexterity penalty AND lose Dexterity bonus to AC? I guess it makes sense. The Dex. penalty would affect Reflex saves, and it should be tougher to make one grappled. It's news to me, as this isn't specifically stated in the Grapple entry under "IF you're grappled"
Actually it means that the loss of Dex bonus to AC applies to attacks made from outside the grapple. If your opponent grapples you, then you suffer a -4 penalty to your Dex (and therefore -2 penalty to AC, CMD, Escape Artist checks, and anything else affected by Dex). However, if your grappler's ally decides to come up and poke you with his sword while his buddy has you grappled, then you lose all Dex bonus to AC against that outside attack.
Actually it means that the loss of Dex bonus to AC applies to attacks made from outside the grapple. If your opponent grapples you, then you suffer a -4 penalty to your Dex (and therefore -2 penalty to AC, CMD, Escape Artist checks, and anything else affected by Dex). However, if your grappler's ally decides to come up and poke you with his sword while his buddy has you grappled, then you lose all Dex bonus to AC against that outside attack.It's only a -4 penalty to Dexterity, not loss of Dex. bonus to AC. That table is a leftover from the SRD that Paizo forgot about.
EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the table, it specifically says (attacker is not), meaning if you initiated the grapple, you suffer -4 Dexterity penalty, but if you're the defender, you lose Dex. bonus to AC...odd. So does the defender suffer -4 Dexterity penalty AND lose Dexterity bonus to AC? I guess it makes sense. The Dex. penalty would affect Reflex saves, and it should be tougher to make one grappled. It's news to me, as this isn't specifically stated in the Grapple entry under "IF you're grappled"
Does that stack? If I'm grappled and a guy comes up to stick me with his sword, do I lose my Dexterity mod AND THEN suffer the -4 effective Dex, basically giving me a minimum -2 Dex modifier as far as AC is concerned?
|
|
Does that stack? If I'm grappled and a guy comes up to stick me with his sword, do I lose my Dexterity mod AND THEN suffer the -4 effective Dex, basically giving me a minimum -2 Dex modifier as far as AC is concerned?Actually it means that the loss of Dex bonus to AC applies to attacks made from outside the grapple. If your opponent grapples you, then you suffer a -4 penalty to your Dex (and therefore -2 penalty to AC, CMD, Escape Artist checks, and anything else affected by Dex). However, if your grappler's ally decides to come up and poke you with his sword while his buddy has you grappled, then you lose all Dex bonus to AC against that outside attack.It's only a -4 penalty to Dexterity, not loss of Dex. bonus to AC. That table is a leftover from the SRD that Paizo forgot about.
EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the table, it specifically says (attacker is not), meaning if you initiated the grapple, you suffer -4 Dexterity penalty, but if you're the defender, you lose Dex. bonus to AC...odd. So does the defender suffer -4 Dexterity penalty AND lose Dexterity bonus to AC? I guess it makes sense. The Dex. penalty would affect Reflex saves, and it should be tougher to make one grappled. It's news to me, as this isn't specifically stated in the Grapple entry under "IF you're grappled"
No, the -4 comes first, and then if you still have any DEX mod remaining, you will lose that against the outside attacker. It won't give you a negative bonus unless the initial -4 moves your DEX below 10.
No, the -4 comes first, and then if you still have any DEX mod remaining, you will lose that against the outside attacker. It won't give you a negative bonus unless the initial -4 moves your DEX below 10.Does that stack? If I'm grappled and a guy comes up to stick me with his sword, do I lose my Dexterity mod AND THEN suffer the -4 effective Dex, basically giving me a minimum -2 Dex modifier as far as AC is concerned?Actually it means that the loss of Dex bonus to AC applies to attacks made from outside the grapple. If your opponent grapples you, then you suffer a -4 penalty to your Dex (and therefore -2 penalty to AC, CMD, Escape Artist checks, and anything else affected by Dex). However, if your grappler's ally decides to come up and poke you with his sword while his buddy has you grappled, then you lose all Dex bonus to AC against that outside attack.It's only a -4 penalty to Dexterity, not loss of Dex. bonus to AC. That table is a leftover from the SRD that Paizo forgot about.
EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the table, it specifically says (attacker is not), meaning if you initiated the grapple, you suffer -4 Dexterity penalty, but if you're the defender, you lose Dex. bonus to AC...odd. So does the defender suffer -4 Dexterity penalty AND lose Dexterity bonus to AC? I guess it makes sense. The Dex. penalty would affect Reflex saves, and it should be tougher to make one grappled. It's news to me, as this isn't specifically stated in the Grapple entry under "IF you're grappled"
Ah. Thanks.