So we're rolling up some 20th level characters to take on the colossal red dragon I've decided on a paladin cause at 20th level they're basically demi-gods. So here's my question.
I purchase a bow with +10 enhancements on it, say;
+1 speed, bane (dragon), bane (outside, evil), frost burst, vicious, seeking composite shortbow (+8)
I cast Greater Magic Weapon on it, which according to the spell boosts it to a +5 enhancement bonus and no more so we have;
+5 speed, bane (dragon), bane (outside, evil), frost burst, vicious, seeking composite shortbow (+8)
Now I activate my Divine Bond ability, which can't increase the enhancement bonus beyond +5 because of the wording, but does say you can add any weapon properties to it. There's no limit noted for this.
+5 holy, axiomatic, merciful, speed, bane (dragon), bane (outside, evil), frost burst, vicious, seeking composite shortbow (+8)
I saw an old thread in the archive that said Divine Bond can't go over +10 enhancements, but that doesn't make any sense based on the wording. The rules for not going over +10 on enhancement+properties are only in the section on crafting and buying.
Is there somewhere in the core book that says no matter what a weapon can't go over +10? Especially when there's an ability that says it adds onto the existing bonuses. I'm looking for a RAW quote that here, not a "oh that's cheese wizz, back in 3.5 anything over +10 was an epic wepon etc." There's nothing in the d20pfsrd.com FAQ, or that I could find with Google.
A quote from James or Sean would be awesome or a link to a thread where this got answered already is much appreciated!
I think that it probably goes with the +10 limit, they just didn't think anyone would try and do what you were doing.
>.>
But then again, hey... It's DM's choice >.>
I'm pretty sure vicious is melee weapons only. So you'd have a +1 open.
I do not think it can be boosted over +10, the weapon just can not carry and enhancement over that limit.
Anyhow just my 2 copper
I do not think it can be boosted over +10, the weapon just can not carry and enhancement over that limit.
Anyhow just my 2 copper
That's what I've read a couple people say, and so I was curious what was the idea behind this. I'm willing to be swayed to this line of thinking, but I like it to be more then "just cause."
Also, drat regarding the vicious > . < and yes I was only adding +5 just because the options for a ranged weapons enhancements are...limited...
not going over + 10 seems a good rule, just because it is really, though it is not mentioned specifically it does hold to the + 5 enhancement max as well. I choose common sense over RAW any day of the week.
That's what I've read a couple people say, and so I was curious what was the idea behind this. I'm willing to be swayed to this line of thinking, but I like it to be more then "just cause."
Umm page 486
"A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once."Also from the paladin section page 63
"For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5,'
which is the normal max of a non artifact weapon +5, you gain up to a +6 but your still limited by the weapons max of +5
A non artifact weapon maxes out at +10 total bonus . The bucket is full so to speak, ya can't put more water into a bucket then it can hold.
Except you can use that full +6 as weapon properties instead. It's true you can never go over +5, that's worded very clearly in several places.
What concerns me is that fact that the line, "A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10." Only shows up in the section on making a weapon. This of course being to prevent you from making items above a +10.
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties
Divine Bond specifically states that you can never go over a +5 bonus, but it says you can add any weapon properties to it. With no mention on "capping." If it was intended to not go over a total +10 enhancement shouldn't the ability read as;
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. A weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10.
Also is there a page I'm missing in the Core book for artifact weapons?
[edit]Drat, forum monster ate a paragraph.
It seems to me that this ability was left with that option open specifically so that the paladin would not run into magic item woes. It's no fun to not use you class ability because you got an upgrade of all things.
Also possible that because this is the only way aside from crafting to add bonus equivalents it simply slipped through the cracks...
I used artifact as well we do not know how they work, but it is clear a non artifact weapon is limited to a total of +10
The paladin section is clear you can not raise a weapon above +5, the max you can make one. So as the paladin section is following the rules for how big a max it can have , just where does it say not to follow the rules?
If it was an exception it would be stated, but instead it states your limited to the normal max +5.
It should go over +10 for what I'm reading. It's the same thing with the Arcane Archer.
If you limit this, at high levels it become useless.
If it was an exception it would be stated, but instead it states your limited to the normal max +5.
I agree that you cannot go over a +5 enhancement bonus. This is spelled out exactly. However it doesn't say you can't go over a +10 modified bonus. That language only exists a few hundred pages later in regards to making/buying weapons.
To me that non +x bonuses should be ably to go over 10. At 20th level you can add a total of +6. What 20th level character only has a +4 weapon? Let alone a fighting type, the paladin. Class abilities should stack with expected gear. It just doesnt make sense otherwise. A paladin at 20 could easily afford a +10 weapon, and probably cannot use divine bond in every fight, so he is gonna have a +10 weapon. It would make the ability useless to higher level characters.
To me that non +x bonuses should be ably to go over 10. At 20th level you can add a total of +6. What 20th level character only has a +4 weapon? Let alone a fighting type, the paladin. Class abilities should stack with expected gear. It just doesnt make sense otherwise.
It could make sense anyway. Say, hypothetically, that the limit IS +10. You might be able to change just what type of bonus there is with the bonus. For example removing holy and adding Fire Burst against a frost giant.
Except there's even less said in the ability description about removing existing weapon properties in exchange for the ones you can grant. It's an interesting idea and perhaps a good alternative, just not one with any backing.
If Divine Bond does cap at +10, then maybe it really is only supposed to be for back-up weapons. It would actually be rather useful as that, aside from the limited circumstances this occurs.
I do have this great mental image of a paladin infusing his fists with +2 brilliant energy. After he's been completely disarmed.
I prefer the idea of a Paladin being attacked in his home, and using household items to defeat evil.
SPORK OF HOLY, DEMON-BANE, SMITING!
"SPOOOORRRRRKKK!!!"
==============
Wait... Pillow..of... Dooom...
I'm curious what the intent is as well. We have a paladin in our group who just got a nice new sword (+6 total enhancements to it) and just gained the ability to add +3 enhancement to it (we made 11th level last session). Assuming he used his gold to purchase more enhancements for the sword, could he just add a +1 enhancement to it or could he add a +2?
From a game play perspective, having characters with +16 enhancement weapons (+11 of that being abilities) seems a bit over the top when other characters will be lucky to have a weapon with +10 enhancements (since it isn't a given). Not to mention the headache of rolling the damage for such a weapon up to 4 or more times per round.
If the intention is to allow a +16 weapon I'll most likely go with it, but if it's not I'll have to think long and hard before I'd allow it in a game where I'm DM. /salute!
Imagine I have a +5 flaming burst, dancing, ghost touch, defender sword(or any other weapon that is a +10 in total bonuses) If I cast Keen on the sword, does the spell fail because it would take the item over the +10 limit?
I believe the the +10 limit only applies to permanent magical enhancements that are crafted into the weapon.
I think that's a pretty good argument for it allowing you to go over +10. Especially if most people will let you bump the enhancement up to +5 with Greater Magic Weapon, putting it over +10 total bonus equivalents.
I believe the the +10 limit only applies to permanent magical enhancements that are crafted into the weapon.
If that was true, you could go above +5, but you can not. +5 is the limit for a weapon when made, a total of +10 for all ablitys. If it obeys the limit for the +5 just why would it brake that same limit and allow over +10 total?
I am in the boat of letting it go over the creating item CAP of 10.
Also you could get ALOT of extra abilities on the weapon using the Magic Item Compendium...just a thought.
If that was true, you could go above +5, but you can not. +5 is the limit for a weapon when made, a total of +10 for all ablitys. If it obeys the limit for the +5 just why would it brake that same limit and allow over +10 total?
I believe the the +10 limit only applies to permanent magical enhancements that are crafted into the weapon.
The +5 limit is listed in multiple places including on this ability. The +10 limit is only listed in the section on crafting magic items.
Greater magic weapons caps out at +5 at level 20.
The paladin ability cannot exceed an enhancement bonus of +5 as written in the ability.
You cannot craft an enhancement bonus of greater than +5.
In short every ability that I know of that lets you grant an enhancement bonus to a weapon has the +5 limit written into the ability. Yet, the +10 limit only shows up in the crafting section.
Yet folks seem to think ya can ignore the other limit as it does not call it out, Interesting
I think they wanted to make the +5 clear and just assumed folks would know the limit was still there. If it could be ignored it would spell out you could go past the normal limit. As far as I can tell it does not say anywhere you can go past the items normal limits.
Yet folks seem to think ya can ignore the other limit as it does not call it out, Interesting
I think they wanted to make the +5 clear and just assumed folks would know the limit was still there. If it could be ignored it would spell out you could go past the normal limit. As far as I can tell it does not say anywhere you can go past the items normal limits.
Yet it does not say specifically that you can't exceed the +10 total enhancement limit. If it did, this would have been a much shorter(and less interesting) thread.
Another way to look at it. Take a suit of +5 full plate with +5 worth of bonuses(speed, resistance to elements, etc). That has a hard limit of +10.
But I can take some +5 full plate, then get haste, resist elements, and so on cast on me. There is no limit to how many spells I can have in effect on me, even when these effects mimic bonuses that can be crafted into armor.
Why? Three reasons come to mind.
1. The spell bonuses are temporary. A lot of the spells are only in effect for a few rounds per day.
2. The spell bonuses are dispellable. A magic item can only be suppressed for a very short time, spells can be removed completely.
3. The spell bonuses must be maintained. Someone has to take an action before or during a fight to cast haste. That is one round that person isn't slinging fireballs, etc.
Thus, I still strongly believe that the +10 limit only applies to permanent bonuses that are crafted into the item, because there are tons of other ways to get around the +10 on both weapons and armor restriction when it comes to spells and other temporary abilities.
If that was true, you could go above +5, but you can not. +5 is the limit for a weapon when made, a total of +10 for all ablitys. If it obeys the limit for the +5 just why would it brake that same limit and allow over +10 total?
I believe the the +10 limit only applies to permanent magical enhancements that are crafted into the weapon.
If that wasn't allowed then why not include the simple sentence saying you can't go over +10 bonus equivalents. There are other ways to go over +10 total. If you cast Greater Magic Weapon on a +1 Speed, Holy, Flaming, Brilliant Energy longsword turning it into +5 Speed, Holy, Flaming, Brilliant Energy longsword then it goes up to a +14 weapon without breaking any of the limitations of the spell. You can do a similar affect with Bane.
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
+5 dragon (bane), flaming, speed longsword
Apply divine bond of +6 while fighting a dragon,
+7 dragon (bane), flaming, keen, holy, speed, brilliant energy longsword
Total of +19 ^^
Now I don't think you can cast GMW on a weapon that has only a +1 and then have Bane push it to +7, because it applies to the actual bonus, so it would increase it to +3, causing GMW to only give you a +2 benefit since it can never increase the total over +5 as per the spell.
well they told you it was limited to +5, the normal limit is +10 total. If you could go over that hard limit, it would state something like ( This can exceed the normal bonus max of +10}
You folks are forgetting those ablitys are ranked as bonus as well. and they have a limit of a total of +10/ 5 of which can be to hit and damage.
I am still not seeing where it says this is an exception to the normal limit here.
I have to say, I'm with you on this one, seeker. If the rules were declared and reiterated in every instance in which they apply, the core rulebook would have been gi-freaking-normous, and it's already massive.
In this case, I would say that if the Paladin's divine bond ability functions with one limit, I would rule that it functions with the other limit as well, RAW.
It does not need to be explicitly stated that something follows the existing rule structure. Rather, only if it is an exception, does it need to be so stated. As there is no such exception clause here, I'm thinking the +10 total limit applies.
well they told you it was limited to +5, the normal limit is +10 total. If you could go over that hard limit, it would state something like ( This can exceed the normal bonus max of +10}
You folks are forgetting those ablitys are ranked as bonus as well. and they have a limit of a total of +10/ 5 of which can be to hit and damage.
I am still not seeing where it says this is an exception to the normal limit here.
But you can go over this fictitious hard limit in 2 other circumstances why would a third ability which doesn't state a limit be affected by this while the other two are not?
The limit is only stated in creating the weapons. It does not apply to Greater Magic Weapon or even to the Bane ability's ability to boost the enhancement bonus up to +7. I don't understand why this would be implied at all.
Divine bond explicitly states it can never go over a +5 bonus, just like GWM but it says that you can apply any weapon property from the list to the item with the limitation that they do not stack.
Be nice if James would step in here and just kinda...clarify... I'm actually kind of surprised there's not a previous post regarding this issue as it's an amazing class ability Paizo added to the Paladin.
If you let great magic weapon, a keen scabbard or spell, flaming arrow spell, etc. take the effective enhancement level beyond +10 and the majority seems to believe you can. I'd let the paladin bonus take it beyond +10 as well. It uses the same logic to bypass the +10 cap as it is just another temporary buff from a different source.
If you hold fast to your +10 cap over spells then the divine bond source should be treated the same. Short of a dev post, and this issue has been raised a few times already, I don't think you will have any better insight than your personal DMing experience for the time being.
It is an interesting question, and one I would love to see a developer respond to just out of curiosity. However, for our game this has never really been an issue until now (with the paladin). The reason being is I can't recall a time we've ever had a player with a weapon that totaled +10 enhancements. Traditionally we have the full +5 enhancement with an ability (maybe 2) thrown in for good measure at high levels.
Because of the high enhancement (+5) we rarely get casters using spell slots to improve the enhancement value of the weapon(s) in question.
I just find it interesting now because of the paladin in our group. This is the first chance we've had to play around with Divine Bond as it is currently written and have gotten up to a power level where the +10 max enhancement value could come into play. /salute!
The Magic Item Compendium is NOT balanced for Pathfinder. For that matter none of WOTC's material is so really should not be part of the discussion of this ability.I am in the boat of letting it go over the creating item CAP of 10.
Also you could get ALOT of extra abilities on the weapon using the Magic Item Compendium...just a thought.
Ludicrously false.
Pathfinder was designed and created with the express intent to be used with WotC 3.5 material. Saying "3.5 material shouldn't be used with Pathfinder" is pure silliness.
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is an evolution of the world's oldest fantasy roleplaying game. (It has been designed with compatibility in mind, so you'll be able to use your existing library of 3.5 products with minimal effort.)
It almost all works fine, at the DM's discretion of course. It's true the book wasn't made with the Pathfinder classes in mind or anything like that, but honestly, what 3.5 splash book acknowledge the existence of any other book except itself, the PHB, and the DMG.
*goes back to purchasing the required 10,000gp of incense to summon a certain red T-rex*
The Magic Item Compendium is NOT balanced for Pathfinder. For that matter none of WOTC's material is so really should not be part of the discussion of this ability.I am in the boat of letting it go over the creating item CAP of 10.
Also you could get ALOT of extra abilities on the weapon using the Magic Item Compendium...just a thought.Ludicrously false.
Pathfinder was designed and created with the express intent to be used with WotC 3.5 material. Saying "3.5 material shouldn't be used with Pathfinder" is pure silliness.
He is not saying it shouldn't be used with Pathfinder. He is saying Pathfinder game balance discussions should not include 3.5 material because the game isn't designed to allow these blindly. Sure, they are mostly mechanically compatible, but you should to look at that material before allowing it (just like any fluff.)
We should keep in mind that extra abilities will be added to weapons with future material though.
But you can go over this fictitious hard limit in 2 other circumstances why would a third ability which doesn't state a limit be affected by this while the other two are not?
Name the two ablitys and the part where it states they ignore the +10 max on a weapon.
Well I already said the two a couple times so far but I'll review.
Greater Magic Weapon says that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5. It does not mention the bonus equivalent at all. Only the enhancement bonus.
+1 holy, speed, brilliant energy, longsword
Apply GMW
+5 holy, speed, brilliant energy longsword
The second ability is Bane. This weapon property states that when being used against the correct enemy type you count the actual enhancement bonus as being +2 higher
+5 dragon (bane), flaming, speed, longsword
vs. a dragon
+7 dragon (bane), flaming, speed, longsword
Neither of these ever mention not being able to go over +10 bonus equivalents. Once again this one rule is only stated halfway through the section about buying or creating magical weapons. Which implies that when making a weapon the total bonus equivalents cannot go over 10. Many rules are repeated multiple times throughout the book, or stated very clearly the implication. There are also several which only show up in one spot and only apply for one situation which is why I feel this one only applies to crafting. My 2 cents. I feel I have stated my point clearly.
I am gonna disagree, the book stats clearly a single weapon can not have over +10 max. It does not say can be made, it says have. Any and every weapon is limited to +10. Same with armor. There is no need to repeat this anywhere else.
Also those spells do not say you may go over the max of +10 so you may not. I can show you in the book where it says +10 is the max.
Now show me where it states those spells and the paladin's power ignores the +10 max. It even states your limited to +5 enhancement, why would it limited one part then not the rest?
just to me clear
PRD
"Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once."
Seems clear to me. It does not matter where the modified bonus comes from, item,spell or power your limited to +10. Unless it states otherwise in the power description.
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It's a good question. Since it appears no one official has answered the question, the simple answer (so as not to start a fight with your particular GM) would be to simply present your case (with a smile!) and ask him his thoughts on it. He may allow it or disallow it, but its better that he knows ahead of time so it doesn't become a problem during combat that makes you dislike playing the character.
For the nay-sayers, rules were build to be bent. What's wrong with rewarding a player for their creative ingenuity? The game was build to be customized and fun.
It would be great if there were a published example of a weapon having over a +10 total enhancement bonus (such as in the writeup of a high level paladin). That would pretty much clear it up. Does anything like that exist?
I only have the RotRL AP and the low level Crypt of the Everflame, and neither of them have anything remotely like such a weapon.
Well the rules do say a weapon or armor can not have more then +10 total. I am not sure how much more official ya want besides the core rules book. I say artifacts may brake this but I do not see them breaking this rule any more then I think we'll see +6 weapons outside of artifact rang or wizards ignoring spell slots
And yet some of us have presented valid arguments for why it would work. This is why a clarification would be nice.
I have to say, I'm with you on this one, seeker. If the rules were declared and reiterated in every instance in which they apply, the core rulebook would have been gi-freaking-normous, and it's already massive.
Then, why does the rule book go to great lengths to reiterate the +5 limit multiple times, but it only mentions the +10 limit once?
The +5 enhancement bonus limit IS listed in every situation where it applies, including on the paladin ability, but the +10 limit gets no mention. It seems rather odd that the rules would mention the +5 limits so many times, but only mentions the +10 limit once in reference to crafting. It makes me believe that the omission is intentional.
If I have a +5 holy, flaming burst, ghost touch weapon, and I cast keen edge on it, does the spell fail? According to you interpretations it should.
If I have a +1 Holy, Keen, flaming burst, ghost touch weapon, and I cast a level 20 greater magic weapon on it, does that spell fail as well or does it only go off at a +4 effect?
Then, why does the rule book go to great lengths to reiterate the +5 limit multiple times, but it only mentions the +10 limit once?
Again
PRD
"Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once."
Notice the +10 max, also notice where it states modified and it does not say while being crafted, as ya often add ablitys after it is made. It does not matter how or where the modified ablitys come from your limit is +10
There was simply no need to reprint it 15 or 20 times when it's already in the reliant section of the book. I am still not seeing a sentence
saying {this may exceed the normal maximum}
And yet some of us have presented valid arguments for why it would work. This is why a clarification would be nice.
No you have not. The books says clearly what the max is, you have yet to show anything where it says you may ignore or exceed this, nothing.
If you can show me where it says those spells/abilitys may ignore the normal rules for weapons please do show me. All you have is "well it never says we must use the normal rules" which is not a good argument.
Seeker, a question for you:
What happens when someone casts a CL20 greater magic weapon on a +1 dancing vorpal longsword?