What I would like to see (in a few years maybe) is hardcover collections of the Adventure Paths like Rise of the Rune Lords
I'd buy hardcover APs.
Ditto. Especially a compiled Pathfinderized Rise of the Runelords.
Creative Director
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I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
OK. As the years go by and Pathfinder grows more and more, there will be more players who do not have the first AP and would love to get a compilation of it
Especially if you convert the first four APs to PFRPG rules
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I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
I'd love to see a Pf update of the first few APs, though honestly my enthusiasm for Second Darkness would be a bit lower than any of the others.
Of course the hardback I'd really want to see is the Epic-level sequel to Rise of the Runelords.
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Creative Director
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OK. As the years go by and Pathfinder grows more and more, there will be more players who do not have the first AP and would love to get a compilation of it
Especially if you convert the first four APs to PFRPG rules
That's one reason why we keep making new Adventure Paths. So there's always several to choose from. I appreciate that folks are interested in picking up the first one, and it's certainly still available as a PDF from us, but it's not the only choice out there from us.
It's worth noting that the APs already compete with themselves. The fact that I have a two-campaign backlog doesn't stop me from wanting to subscribe to Kingmaker desperately, but I've resigned myself to run the campaigns I have. The free PDFs and price break are enticing, but not enticing enough as I just don't have $120 to sink into a full AP run.
HOWEVER, that malaise would be shattered outright if there were a $50-$60 hardback of an AP that I don't have. Yes I would buy it absolutely, just because I'm a completist.
I would say that you should start thinking about this kind of thing once Rise of the Runelords becomes very difficult to obtain (nearly there already).
EDIT: I was also just looking through the LoF forum, and I found a bunch of "director's cut" type info... that's some serious added value right there. I'd love to see similar treatments of older APs. I know you've heard this one to death, but as time wears on it is becoming more and more plausible.
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As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
I would absolutely buy hardcovers with the first four Adventure Paths fully converted to the PFRPG system. Hell, I'd probably continue past that. And it's be even more amazing if the other articles were kept in as well.
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This idea of putting older APs in a hardcover was discussed in a previous thread in which James gave excellent reasons why it probably would not happen. I believe one of the main points was cost v. demand for such a product. I would be very suprised if hardcover compilations every comes to market for the adventure paths.
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Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
I would. You'd just have to throw something else into the hardcover AP to make it just different enough -- ie, errata gleaned since the softcover was released, or an additional article ("the making of this AP: interviews with the authors and artists and editors"), etc.
I would absolutely buy hardcovers with the first four Adventure Paths fully converted to the PFRPG system
Ditto!
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The free PDFs and price break are enticing, but not enticing enough as I just don't have $120 to sink into a full AP run.
It is $120 over a 6 month period. Not at one time. I do not know your economics but broken over six months seems that it should be doable for most people.
I love the AP's and will be a loyal customer for as long as they are produced. The only issue I have is that our group only plays once a month (of course it is a very long day) so it takes us at least 1 1/2 years to play one. We have played RotR and are in the middle of CotCT. Another DM is in the first chapter of LOF, and we have another person slated to run COT. And now Kingmaker is coming out.
I also would love to see the first four APs reworked into PFRPG. I would buy them all and I would also buy subsequent compliations.
I think one of the issues with hardcover compliations is going to be space. Each one would be as large as the Bestiary at least.
Ya know a 5th anniversary RotRL reworked for pathfinder, be an awesome hardcover
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Chief Technical Officer
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HOWEVER, that malaise would be shattered outright if there were a $50-$60 hardback of an AP that I don't have. Yes I would buy it absolutely, just because I'm a completist.
Quite seriously, if we offered such a product for each adventure path, we'd go out of business. Done. Finito. No exaggeration—it would be the worst and last mistake we'd ever make.
Please read Why We Don't Reprint for a detailed explanation of this.
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I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
Personally I would still buy the adventure paths. I know why you goes don't and likely never will do this though. I think it would be less of a problem if you guys waited 5 years to do it and then did a collected and updated to PFRPG set.
I might be wrong but I think your core fans(aka subscribers) would not change. It might cost a few sales of the new AP from some of the others(others I mean those that buy them in gaming stores and such) but if they are buying a collected version of a older AP would it hurt the business that much?
I could totally be wrong and I get the concern about doing this. I don't really expect it to happen but I wouldn't object to it happening. Though personally i would only buy them if they had the errata and was updated to PFRPG.
I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
As for hardcover compilation products, such as a hardcover version of older Adventure Paths, that's actually a better possibility than a brand new adventure hardcover. But not in the immediate future (as in, not for a few years).
I would.
Even if it's retread material from old adventure paths. I like reading them when they come out and I also like having the entire adventure path in a single book along with corrected errata and supplemental material.
Of course, I do see Vic's point just above. I don't ever want to support you guys out of existence.
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I'd buy hardcover APs.
Would you also still buy Adventure Paths and modules, though?
One issue I can immediately see is subscribers clamoring for some sorta discount on such a compilation. That would bite deeply into any potential profit from such an item as well as (re)encourage folks to wait for future compilations (which seems to be Paizo's biggest fear. And I don't blame them.)
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Creative Director
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Even if it's retread material from old adventure paths. I like reading them when they come out and I also like having the entire adventure path in a single book along with corrected errata and supplemental material.
There's a huge difference between reprinting an AP as a hardcover, and revising an AP to a hardcover. What I did with Shackled City back in the day was a revision; it not only cleared up errata, but it incorporated 20,000 new words in the form of an adventure from Chris Perkins and 50,000 new words from me in the form of expansions throughout the entire thing. Frankly... Shackled City needed those extra 70,000 words. It was our first AP, and we did a lot of things wrong with it.
I don't think that Rise of the Runelords needs that much revision on that scale. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to expand it, but I don't think it NEEDS it.
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Even if it's retread material from old adventure paths. I like reading them when they come out and I also like having the entire adventure path in a single book along with corrected errata and supplemental material.There's a huge difference between reprinting an AP as a hardcover, and revising an AP to a hardcover. What I did with Shackled City back in the day was a revision; it not only cleared up errata, but it incorporated 20,000 new words in the form of an adventure from Chris Perkins and 50,000 new words from me in the form of expansions throughout the entire thing. Frankly... Shackled City needed those extra 70,000 words. It was our first AP, and we did a lot of things wrong with it.
I don't think that Rise of the Runelords needs that much revision on that scale. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to expand it, but I don't think it NEEDS it.
Look on the plus side. You have fans that are actually asking you to reprint stuff so they can buy it again. So if you look at it from a certain way thats a big compliment.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I mentioned it in the Why We Don't Reprint Thread, but I may as well repeat it here:
"The 'no reprints' rule doesn't apply to everything... and 'reinvention' is also possible. So long as it's done in a way that is as appealing as a completely new product, and doesn't train people to always wait for the reinvention."
So an anniversary edition that updates the out-of-print Rise of the Runelords to PFRPG rules is interesting. The ruleset update satisfies the requirements of reinvention to at least some degree; then, so long as we made it clear that this was a one-time exception, and that waiting for, say, a complete Kingmaker compilation would probably be fruitless, that could satisfy the "not training people to wait" rule.
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I don't think that Rise of the Runelords needs that much revision on that scale. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to expand it, but I don't think it NEEDS it.
In a perfect world....I'd probably have to change my pants if you guys announced a hardcover expanded RotRL volume.
Not that I'd soil myself in a perfect world. Er...you know what I mean.
I would absolutely buy hardcovers with the first four Adventure Paths fully converted to the PFRPG systemDitto!
ditto the ditto
I don't think that Rise of the Runelords needs that much revision on that scale. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to expand it, but I don't think it NEEDS it.In a perfect world....I'd probably have to change my pants if you guys announced a hardcover expanded RotRL volume.
Not that I'd soil myself in a perfect world. Er...you know what I mean.
LOL!
Even if it's retread material from old adventure paths. I like reading them when they come out and I also like having the entire adventure path in a single book along with corrected errata and supplemental material.There's a huge difference between reprinting an AP as a hardcover, and revising an AP to a hardcover. What I did with Shackled City back in the day was a revision; it not only cleared up errata, but it incorporated 20,000 new words in the form of an adventure from Chris Perkins and 50,000 new words from me in the form of expansions throughout the entire thing. Frankly... Shackled City needed those extra 70,000 words. It was our first AP, and we did a lot of things wrong with it.
I don't think that Rise of the Runelords needs that much revision on that scale. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to expand it, but I don't think it NEEDS it.
Having read through the APs all along, I agree. Far less for corrections, but adding in even a single bit of extra material is all it takes for a movie on DVD to resell itself to the same customer.
I mentioned it in the Why We Don't Reprint Thread, but I may as well repeat it here:
"The 'no reprints' rule doesn't apply to everything... and 'reinvention' is also possible. So long as it's done in a way that is as appealing as a completely new product, and doesn't train people to always wait for the reinvention."
So an anniversary edition that updates the out-of-print Rise of the Runelords to PFRPG rules is interesting. The ruleset update satisfies the requirements of reinvention to at least some degree; then, so long as we made it clear that this was a one-time exception, and that waiting for, say, a complete Kingmaker compilation would probably be fruitless, that could satisfy the "not training people to wait" rule.
Really good point, Vic. Get away with it for an OOP AP but let people know that it ain't happening again. So long as the customers really hear this message, a RotRL hardcover is there for the merry taking. >:)
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So an anniversary edition that updates the out-of-print Rise of the Runelords to PFRPG rules is interesting. The ruleset update satisfies the requirements of reinvention to at least some degree; then, so long as we made it clear that this was a one-time exception, and that waiting for, say, a complete Kingmaker compilation would probably be fruitless, that could satisfy the "not training people to wait" rule.
I would think that an "anniversary edition" would mandate at the very least a few new pages. To me, this means a new "anniversary edition forward" which would leave plenty of room to explain the purpose compilation (pathfinder's 5th anniversary,) it can't be used as an example of compilations coming. What you guys do for the 10th anniversary could and probably will be something different depending on customer trends. :)
Would I buy a hardcover book of a brand new adventure? Hell yeah!
Would I buy a hardcover compilation (hell, a hardcover anything) of something I own already? Hell. No.
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I would think that an "anniversary edition" would mandate at the very least a few new pages. To me, this means a new "anniversary edition forward" which would leave plenty of room to explain the purpose compilation (pathfinder's 5th anniversary,) it can't be used as an example of compilations coming.
I would agree that Rise of the Runelords would be a great anniversary republish. A hardcover would probably have some of the other articles trimmed out, the bestiaries all combined in the back (or maybe unneeded at all if all monsters are recreated in already published bestiaries), the rules updated to PRPG rules, and problematic maps and/or encounters (*cough*Xanesha*cough*). It would be especially cool if this came not too long (at most a year) before an epic level continuation. :D
::tries to wipe stars from her eyes::
Would I buy a hardcover book of a brand new adventure? Hell yeah!
Would I buy a hardcover compilation (hell, a hardcover anything) of something I own already? Hell. No.
I agree. I would think harcover compilations of old APs is more for the latecomer to Paizo then someone from Day #1
I can see how putting out hardcovers all the time could hurt. However one every now and then might be nice, but I can understand how this might be an issue as well. I love the thought of a 5th anniversary RotRL book and would buy it in a heartbeat
The two hard back I really want however shall never be, so, so sad.
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Since I kicked off this thread, I thought I might jump back into the discussion. Initially when I wrote the OP, I was thinking of a hardcover that was not a reprint of a previously published AP. I understand the reasons behind not reprinting, and I have had the discussion with James and Eric on this topic. I fully support the decision, as I think it makes good business sense. An updated Rise of the Runelords to Pathfinder would be great, but I was not specifically thinking along these lines in the OP.
I was actually thinking of some sort of new product. I do not want to speak for all gamers, but I for one like hardcover monster adventures. I realize that this sounds a lot like an AP, but I was thinking more of a dungeon crawl or some sort of supersized module.
Splat books are good, but too many splat books can ruin the game as inbalance creeps in, and you can get buried with all the rule combinations. Hardcover dungeons on the other hand do not break the game, and I would rather see a hardcover dungeon than a player's handbook III.
PS
...and yes, even though I own RotRL, I would buy a hardcover version with the new Pathfinder rules, but I would be more excited about a RotRL part 2 hardcover.
I have no idea if my experience is representative of any significant group, however I thought I'd mention that, without your reprints, you would never have won me as a customer. No doubt you're aware of this cohort of customers already, but I havent seen it mentioned much.
There are so many companies around, I tend to stick with the ones I have confidence will produce stuff I like. I'd only heard a little of Paizo and the shackled city compilation was a neat way to 'test the waters'. Now of course, I have bought every Paizo product I can get my hands on (except for the cards), I also shop here almost exclusively on the rare occasions I buy from a different publisher.
In that sense, a compilation of the occasional AP could be viewed as a marketting technique to win new customers, rather than to sate the demand of current customers who were late in discovering Paizo. Kind of a "Come see how it all began - now updated to Pathfinder rules" kind of thing. The short-term drop in revenue hopefully winning a long-term boost in subscribers.
Having said that, of course it would be hard to determine how many subscribers such a product would win and thus what sort of a short-term revenue shortfall would be justified. Glad I'm not in YOUR business. :p
How about a truly epic AP that comes out just AFTER the epic rules book, and takes the characters from 1st to 30th or so?
If that happen I think it would start at 16th or so. That way you could use a group from one of the AP's you have already played
But an epic anything is a hard sell, much less a six book ap
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I was actually thinking of some sort of new product. I do not want to speak for all gamers, but I for one like hardcover monster adventures. I realize that this sounds a lot like an AP, but I was thinking more of a dungeon crawl or some sort of supersized module.
It's been suggested before and they basically said that in order to do a mega adventure they would have to cancel the modules or an adventure path that year to have the resources to do one.
IMHO, most of us can't/don't (play) keep up with the rate of the monthly adventure paths come out anyway, a "new" hardcover mega adventure from Paizo is just something else that many gamers won't use.
One of my prized possessions is the hardcover of Necropolis by Gary Gygax for D&D 3.0. I sure would love to run it one day, but ... Paizo's spoiled me. There's not a single full color piece of art in that book.
Another huge adventure I love is Dragon Mountain, from the old 2nd edition. But again, the maps & artwork pale next to Paizo's work. The thought of Paizo doing a single adventure on that scale make me absolutely drool. The only thing I'd want is the ability to get a PDF of the document, in order to snag the maps and art in order to skip scanning the hardcopy into the PC.
So, yeah, if Paizo did a huge hardcover adventure, I'd definitely snag it. And, I keep seeing folks begging for a Rise of the Runelords sequel. Count me in that group as well.
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One of my prized possessions is the hardcover of Necropolis by Gary Gygax for D&D 3.0. I sure would love to run it one day, but ... Paizo's spoiled me. There's not a single full color piece of art in that book.
Another huge adventure I love is Dragon Mountain, from the old 2nd edition. But again, the maps & artwork pale next to Paizo's work. The thought of Paizo doing a single adventure on that scale make me absolutely drool. The only thing I'd want is the ability to get a PDF of the document, in order to snag the maps and art in order to skip scanning the hardcopy into the PC.
So, yeah, if Paizo did a huge hardcover adventure, I'd definitely snag it. And, I keep seeing folks begging for a Rise of the Runelords sequel. Count me in that group as well.
Paizo should team up with Monte Cook and publish some of his dungeonaday.com material in that HC ^_^
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I have to say I'm a sucker for big hard cover adventures.
I'm not entirely certain why though.
I sold my World's Largest Dungeon for a chunk of change (not nearly as much as I paid for it though), after a couple of attempts and finding it just did not suit my group's play style at all.
I still have my SCAP sitting in my room (I was even reading it last night), I had run a version of it in Eberron, but we hadn't gotten past half way through Flood Season. Those maps and hand-outs were cool though.
Reading it though, I realised that what I had in the SCAP were 12, well written, brilliantly organised stand-alone adventures. Jzadirune is such a brilliant dungeon delve and if the story elements are removed or altered would make a great "Level 1" in an exploration of the Underdark campaign.
Finally, I would buy a Rise of the Runelords AP. I only bought book one of the soft-cover and even if I had all 6 I'd still buy the hard-cover. The conversion to PFRPG, as well as a little alteration and expansion (due to feedback from 5 years of playtesting) would definitely make it worth my money. Also you could expand it so that characters could hit that golden level 20 (either by inserting extra adventures earlier and scaling up later adventures) or by expanding beyond the end. (Although doing so in a way that doesn't step on its toes may be difficult. Something like how Throne of Bhaal was a brilliant expansion to Baldur's Gate 2 without invalidating the threat that came before). Even if I never played through it, I'd still want to read it for the great design, innovative ideas and because sometimes I'm going to blatantly steal ideas for my home games. ^_^
Plus you could make a shiny, fancy, boxed set:
The PFRPG Campaign-In-A-Box - PFRPG Core Rules + Bestiary + Rise of the Runelords + RotRL Dice in one (very heavy) box, everything you need to run a complete campaign!