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This Saturday, I'm going to begin GMing a regular 'home' game for a local group. And by 'home', I mean 'out here in the middle of Europe, on deployment in Kosovo', and by 'group', I mean 'a bunch of soldiers.'
As such, while the group may not get beyond 4 players, I was wondering if there are any guidelines to GMing for a group larger than four. In addition, this isn't my first time GMing a 'global' campaign setting (as I've GM'd for both Living Greyhawk and Living Forgotten Realms), but as this is my first time GMing for Pathfinder Society, I was curious if there were any nuances or advice that would be useful in this particular setting. We'll be starting with adventure path #29, if anyone was curious. And yes, I've already started reading the rules and regulations on PFS as well as the background setting information as detailed in the wonderful PDF files this company sells (awesome marketing move, let me tell you!)
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So to reiterate your question:
You are an experienced organized play GM, but you haven't GMed Pathfinder Society before. You are asking for advice as a GM new to Pathfinder Society, and wondering if there are any guidelines for tables of more than 4 players. Without more specifics, here's my advice:
You are well-prepared for PFS. It's pretty streamlined compared to other org play systems. Because of the limited number of words allowed for a PFS scenario (compared to LFR or LG adventures), you are going to need to do more improvising. As an example, nowhere in the adventure will it tell you about legal consequences for crimes in Absalom for example. If your players get into a street brawl and drop a fireball in a crowded square, just go with it. In the City of Greyhawk they'd be arrested and there would be specific charges according to their crimes. Nothing like that in PFS. Just improv a manhunt by the city watch and the PCs have to lay low for awhile.
With four PCs at the table they are going to get beat up a lot. The cleric (hopefully there's one) is going to waste his spells on healing all the time. Since #29 takes place in a city, remind the players that there're NPC spellcasters available for CLW and the like. Spend 10GP, get some healing between combats. It saves the cleric's spells and channels for the encounters.
With only four PCs you might TPK them in PFS#29. Try to give them as much slack as you can. A lot of new PCs died in #29 last year at GenCon...
The Faction missions are going to be new to you and your players. Some players that sit together on regular occassions get into the habit of sharing their mission objectives. It is not in the spirit of the Factions, but given the choice between failing a mission and asking for some help, most players will ask for help. Depends how hardcore they are. Don't forget that the PCs can sometimes get a NPC expert to assist them (for a cost) if the skill check is beyond them.
As far as handling more than 4 players at the table, the ceiling is 7 players on a table. It is really hard for anyone to enjoy themselves when there's 7 people waiting for their turn though, so avoid it if you can.
I'm guessing you are going to be stuck GMing for these guys. Kudos to you. If possible, push them to each take a turn as the GM, even if they don't think they know the rules well enough. It makes players appreciate what you do if they can relate to it. One might even decide he enjoys it.
If you have more specific questions that we can help you with, please fire away. This is what I have right now, off the top of my head.
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So to reiterate your question:
You are an experienced organized play GM, but you haven't GMed Pathfinder Society before. You are asking for advice as a GM new to Pathfinder Society, and wondering if there are any guidelines for tables of more than 4 players. Without more specifics, here's my advice:
You are well-prepared for PFS. It's pretty streamlined compared to other org play systems. Because of the limited number of words allowed for a PFS scenario (compared to LFR or LG adventures), you are going to need to do more improvising. As an example, nowhere in the adventure will it tell you about legal consequences for crimes in Absalom for example. If your players get into a street brawl and drop a fireball in a crowded square, just go with it. In the City of Greyhawk they'd be arrested and there would be specific charges according to their crimes. Nothing like that in PFS. Just improv a manhunt by the city watch and the PCs have to lay low for awhile.
Interesting. I like the freedom afforded in that, actually. I prefer improvising and going with the flow, which makes each module more personal, if that makes any sense...
With four PCs at the table they are going to get beat up a lot. The cleric (hopefully there's one) is going to waste his spells on healing all the time. Since #29 takes place in a city, remind the players that there're NPC spellcasters available for CLW and the like. Spend 10GP, get some healing between combats. It saves the cleric's spells and channels for the encounters.
I remember reading up on that little portion in the PFS rules, and frankly, that's an excellent way to alleviate some of the stress of adventuring. I'll have to make sure to remind that of them. It's good that such resources are available, and I'm glad to see players getting rewarded for resourceful thinking.
With only four PCs you might TPK them in PFS#29. Try to give them as much slack as you can. A lot of new PCs died in #29 last year at GenCon...
Egads. It didn't seem that rough when I skimmed over it, but that's actually good that you warned me about it first. I'll know to help the PCs out a little.
The Faction missions are going to be new to you and your players. Some players that sit together on regular occassions get into the habit of sharing their mission objectives. It is not in the spirit of the Factions, but given the choice between failing a mission and asking for some help, most players will ask for help. Depends how hardcore they are. Don't forget that the PCs can sometimes get a NPC expert to assist them (for a cost) if the skill check is beyond them.
This is actually very interesting, the whole faction bit. I really like it! Kind of adds a 3rd dimension to the adventure now that I think about it...
As far as handling more than 4 players at the table, the ceiling is 7 players on a table. It is really hard for anyone to enjoy themselves when there's 7 people waiting for their turn though, so avoid it if you can.
Agreed. Like I said, I don't expect more than 4 or 5 players at any given time, but it's nice to know about the high ceiling for games.
I'm guessing you are going to be stuck GMing for these guys. Kudos to you. If possible, push them to each take a turn as the GM, even if they don't think they know the rules well enough. It makes players appreciate what you do if they can relate to it. One might even decide he enjoys it.
Unfortunately, most of these soldiers are new to the game, so I don't expect to be doing anything other than GMing for a good long while. On the positive side, I absolutely love GMing, so its not that big of a deal.
If you have more specific questions that we can help you with, please fire away. This is what I have right now, off the top of my head.
If any others come up, I'll be sure to ask. If it's alright, I'll probably continue to post in this thread once I get done GMing on Saturday.
With only four PCs you might TPK them in PFS#29. Try to give them as much slack as you can. A lot of new PCs died in #29 last year at GenCon...
To be fair, one TPK happened because ...
And almost all of the rest of the TPKs at GenCon (I think there were 9 total out of ~80 tables) happened because ...
My advice is to read the GM thread about Shipyard Rats and feel free to ask your fellow GMs about any of the encounters.
Also...
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I'd sugest that you keep a couple of the Iconic characters handy, in case anyone drops in or becomes curious.
One step ahead of you, but thanks for the tip! I have a bad feeling that one of the players might end up dropping out (as is understandable, considering the work environment we're in).
I did have a question though: Since I'm 'eating' a scenario, I should be able to record one of my personal characters (well, THE character I'm putting together) for half-credit, correct? Does that mean if, in the event the party drops below the minimum, I could use him instead of the 'iconic' characters, or is that considered a no-go?
With only four PCs you might TPK them in PFS#29. Try to give them as much slack as you can. A lot of new PCs died in #29 last year at GenCon...My advice is to read the GM thread about Shipyard Rats and feel free to ask your fellow GMs about any of the encounters.
First off, WOW, thanks for taking the time out of your busy day, Mr. Frost, for addressing a random fan like myself! I think I have your signature on this Pathfinder RPG book that's in my hand. Unfortunately, I was not able to be at GENCON '09 personally due to deployment with the National Guard, but you and the folks that work on Paizo and Pathfinder really have my respect, eh?
Fanboyism aside, I appreciate the feedback and the advice. The thread in of itself has already been helpful, even after the first few posts, so thanks for letting me know what to look out for!
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I did have a question though: Since I'm 'eating' a scenario, I should be able to record one of my personal characters (well, THE character I'm putting together) for half-credit, correct? Does that mean if, in the event the party drops below the minimum, I could use him instead of the 'iconic' characters, or is that considered a no-go?
I am not sure if there is an actual rule on this but from all the advice I have seen on filling up a small group with an GM runned character was that they used a Pre-Gen, I have not seen anything about using the GMs own.
Hey if before May you guys fly back through Germany and are planning to stay there a few days, post it up I can run a few games for you guys on the Base or where ever you are staying.
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I did have a question though: Since I'm 'eating' a scenario, I should be able to record one of my personal characters (well, THE character I'm putting together) for half-credit, correct? Does that mean if, in the event the party drops below the minimum, I could use him instead of the 'iconic' characters, or is that considered a no-go?
I am not sure if there is an actual rule on this but from all the advice I have seen on filling up a small group with an GM runned character was that they used a Pre-Gen, I have not seen anything about using the GMs own.
Hey if before May you guys fly back through Germany and are planning to stay there a few days, post it up I can run a few games for you guys on the Base or where ever you are staying.
Unfortunately, I don't think the folks here from Michigan and North Dakota are flying through Germany when their tour is over; I'll be staying for a second rotation, however. Thanks for the offer, though!
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As one of the DMs at GenCon with TPKs there’s one thing I need to point out.
Things to remember which could turn this encounter deadly:
1) Most likely the party will leave a lookout topside. If they do that PC needs to make perception checks if/when combat breaks out before responding as their attention is drawn toward the pier and most likely hiding away from the door to the ladder (stairs) leading down in order to see the pier. This can cause a delay for that party member if they have a poor perception or slow movement rate; which could have a devastating impact on the battle if they are a key combatant.
2) It’s dark at the lower deck and the half-orcs have dark vision. Perception checks will have a penalty due to the darkness trying to spot the monks in order to react during the surprise round if the party/PC is heard or doesn’t attempt to sneak. The inclusion of light or having half-orc PCs in the party negates penalties in combat fixing what tends to be the biggest and deadliest problem with this encounter.
3) When moving down the ladder the monks attack the first person they don’t recognize at the bottom. This could cause a choke point if that PC doesn’t move further in, preventing more capable fighters to get forward.
Most of these things are easy for a party to work around if the players think it through. Poor planning was the biggest problem the parties I TPKed committed. That combined with not healing up or unable to after the fight or not taking the time to talk to the cleric in order to gain a better position before fighting her tended to be the biggest factors for not passing that encounter.
To answer a question from further up-thread, a GM may never play his/her own character in a scenario he/she is running. A GM may play a pre-gen character of appropriate level but ONLY to make a table of three players legal by turning into a table of 4.
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To answer a question from further up-thread, a GM may never play his/her own character in a scenario he/she is running. A GM may play a pre-gen character of appropriate level but ONLY to make a table of three players legal by turning into a table of 4.
Excellent, thank you for clearing that up. I'll make sure the pre-gens are ready when we start the game tomorrow night, then. Thanks for all the helpful assistance!
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Welcome DarkKnightCuron. My group has been playing under the pathfinder rules since they came out, but we are new to the Society side of things. I too am GM'ing. Only for me this is a first, well second I've run 2 games. I have something I can't seem to figure out.
Since the players have a little bit of gold now they want to buy and sell gear. I totally understand the purchasing, but after consulting the PFS Guide I didn't see anything about selling. Am I blind? Or is it just the standard where you sell at 50% of the cost?
My group is having fun with the PFS format. Hope to hear your group likes it too DarkKnightCuron. Keep us posted please.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Since the players have a little bit of gold now they want to buy and sell gear. I totally understand the purchasing, but after consulting the PFS Guide I didn't see anything about selling. Am I blind? Or is it just the standard where you sell at 50% of the cost?
Players don't get piles of loot after each adventure, but rather the gold listed at the end of each encounter with a maximum of the amount listed on the Chronicle sheet. So they never need to sell the items they found on some NPC they killed; the scenario already assumes they've done so which is how it arrives at the available gold figure. If, however, your PC wants to sell his mundane half-plate armor so he can buy masterwork half-plate, he sells the item for half market price.
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As such, while the group may not get beyond 4 players, I was wondering if there are any guidelines to GMing for a group larger than four.
DarkKnightCuron - welcome here.
I assume you already got all the rules answered - having played 4 out of my 5 games with a table of 6 and GMed my only game with a table of 6 here is my view from this (limited) experience.
Issue 1 - time. A bigger table tends to take up more time. This is more an issue at a Convention - compared to a home game. But especially if a group want to go 'back' to ensure to clean out every room and every faction mission then 4 hours can be tough.
I only managed 4 out of 6 encounters when I GMed at a CON. The group - mainly fresh new Pathfinder players - but it seemed they had other previous Roleplay experience - took the hard and long way whenever there was a simple alternative. Didn't help that we were half an hour short as 4 players played 2 slots (only one Pathfinder) and wanted 30 minutes for shopping. Still they had a blast and enjoyed it - despite missing the final encounter.
Issue 2 - giving players their special moments to shine. I feel bigger tables are more hard work for a GM. Players like to have their special moments - which is easier to achieve with less players as you can spend more time on each. Having said this - with a focussed group it can be great fun as a bigger group also allows more options.
Issue 3 - playing up a tier becomes much more likely with bigger tables. Having a group of 6 1st level play their first game can help - but in a group of 6 you should add +1 to the Average Party Level to determine the most appropriate tier - making it much more likely that at least some members are playing up.
No concern right now - but it could become one at a later stage. 6 level 2 players will make a tier 1-2 a walkthrough and a tier 3-4 challenging.
I'm just back from 2 challenging, nailbiting, epic scenarios played as slot zero. We burnt through loads of potions, scrolls and other equipment. A table of 6 with predominately level 2 characters can be challenging to find the right tier.
But that's the beauty of PFS - you aren't forced to play up and you can always decide to turn around after 3 or 4 encounters. Not that this was an option with 5 GM's and 1 GM wife playing :) We survived and can tell the tale. But something to watch out if your table grows over time (hopefully) and your players advance to level 2.
Thod
Keep in mind that, as of v2.10 of the Guide, slots for PFS are now 5 hours.
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Hi all -
Seeing that I'm seeing several new and important posts - like the new 5 Hour rule, I thought that I'd post a rule that I'd like to see taken into account.
Faction Shirts - I do like that it can be of any faction as that changed from Season Zero, however the rule still states that you must be wearing the shirt to utilize it. I however bought my Taldor (TALDOR! [yes, I actually yelled that as I typed it]) when only Large was available. Sure it was tight then, but since I've gained in girth to 3X, you don't really expect me to pay $30 for another shirt. As such, and with 4 Day Con's and all, I'm not going to actually wear my shirt for all four days. Thus, I believe (and have seen it practiced at NeonCon 09 as such) that the shirt must be shown prior to game play to the GM as well as on their person (or personal belongings, such as a backpack) and only for that person that provided the shirt proof prior to game start. This would keep me from having my fat gut stick out for four days at NeonCon 10 as well as stinking while sticking out - that and $30. This would also prevent me from having the shirt and letting someone else at the table use as they produce it as theirs.
Any idea of when Version 2.10 will be out? We play Vegas Game Day each month, and I am looking forward to 5 Hr sessions, but as with our 2 sessions normally at 4 hrs as well as other major cons, how will this work? Seems like it might mess up Con scheduling. Especially if the rule is buried in the mire of PF Society Rules.
Thanks in advance.
Be Well. Be Well Taldoran.
Theocrat Issak
Goldfrapp the Nekkid Taldoran Trebuchet
2.1 *is* out. It's the current version. 5-hour slots are currently the rule.
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2.1 *is* out. It's the current version. 5-hour slots are currently the rule.
According to my download last night of the PFS Guide, page 4 regarding slots:
"Slot and Slot 0: Slot is a convention term that usually refers to a 4- or 5-hour window of play. For example,the first slot of a convention might be at 8:00 A.M. on Thursday morning and might run through 12:00 P.M.These four hours would be called “slot 1” as they are the first slot of the convention. Slot 0 is a precon slot in which Game Masters gather to play through a scenario in order to be ready to run that scenario at a Pathfinder Society event."
This doesn't say that events are 5 hours, especially as the example is a 4-hour slot. I'm personally preferring a 5-hour slot mechanic and rule set, but as someone that is attempting to prepare and secure gaming slots for Game Days and for NeonCon, I'm sure most Directors will need further "proof" that 5-hour slots are the rule in light of the example and many will not just reference this forum post. Of course, if there is another spot in the guide that lists the 5-hour slot - please direct me.
I do appreciate your attention to this and all the other posts.
Thank you for your clarifications.
Be Well. Be Well Slotted.
Theocrat Issak
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Theocrat - your idea about Faction shirts makes sense. If I run a game and someone shows me a shirt before the game starts I'd let them use it for a re-roll during the session. And let me tell you - those come in very handy! Personally I use mine on those natural 1 Will saves.
Re: slots hours - I plan on working within the slot mechanics given at a convention. For instance, I'm going to TotalCon in Mansfield, MA next month and it looks like slots are given in 2-hour chunks. Our Pathfinder stuff is set up to take up 2 of those slots for a 4-hour session. There is at least an hour between each session, which gives us some extra time to work with.
I left the "4" in the "4- or 5-hour slot" quote because some conventions simply can't do slots greater than 4 hours. "These four hours would be called 'slot 1' ..." should read "These four or five hours would be called 'slot 1' ..." and I'll correct that in a future update.
Now, the rules do say:
On page 19:
Since Pathfinder Society operates on a 5-hour time limit for scenarios ...
and
...you only have 5 hours to play...
And on page 25 under "Your Duties as a Game Master:"
Play for no more than 5 hours (Note: home games and online games do not necessarily have to follow this restriction and some conventions
may run longer slots)
Josh, a couple of questions about the 5 hour slots...
Are Scenarios going to be written now with the assumption of 5 hour slots? And is GenCon going to be 5 hour slots?
The first is a loaded question--when we wrote to 4 hours, sometimes they went over, sometimes they didn't. Some people, with 5-hour slots at their local convention, wished they had more time. *shrug* It's hard to answer that one. We'll continue to keep time in mind and hope the expansion will make Tier 7-11 and Tier 12 scenarios easier to complete.
As for the 2nd question--yes, Gen Con (and PaizoCon for that matter) will have 5-hour slots.
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My apologies for the lack of updates.
The players were fairly effective at the fights, but those fights on the ship really did a number on them. I think I rolled three critical hits during those two fights, and I had to fudge two of them down to regular hits just to ease their pain a little bit. I reminded them that they would be able to purchase healing services should they need them, but they didn't have enough gold at the time, sadly. Eventually, the combats in the module wore them out to a TPK, despite my attempts at keeping them alive. I even offered them a way to sneak around two of the combats, but as most soldiers are, they went all gun-ho on me. I still feel really bad about the whole thing, but everyone seemed to enjoy themselves despite what occured, which I honestly thought was rather wierd. Most of the folks back home would be a little disappointed...
At any rate, I asked if there was any way I could improve my job as a DM in the eyes of the players, and they all seemed to think I wasn't aggressive enough with their opponents, but they enjoyed my work overall. Hopefully, with a new batch of characters, they'll be inclined to 1) take a healer, 2) be more cautious, and 3) show up more often.
I'm still convinced I did something wrong, despite going over the suggestions in this thread and the thread dedicated to this module twice before running it. Not sure what it is though.
I'm still convinced I did something wrong, despite going over the suggestions in this thread and the thread dedicated to this module twice before running it. Not sure what it is though.
TPKs always leaves me with a feeling of inadequacy. I'm always convinced that I didn't give them the clues they needed, that I was too rough tactis wise, that I should have done something more. The feeling is normal, as most of us DMs DO NOT enjoy killing the story with a TPK. So you are not alone feeling this war.
With that said, sometimes, even with all the will in the world, the players will not find their way through an adventure. One such case for me was the end fight in A Bullywug's Gambit in the Savage Tide AP. Even though I hade vastly overpowered characters in this game, the bullywugs managed to eliminate the PCs in my campaign through guerrila tactics and lucky dice. The luck was just not on their side that night.
If your players made mistakes and you gave them every opportunity to live through the adventure yet they did not take the bait... well, there isn't much more a DM can do!
Good luck with further installements of your PFS adventures and stay safe.
Sometimes the dice roll better for the GM then the players. It happens.
They also need a healer. ;-)
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I think a TPK should leave the players with a feeling of inadequacy. If you did your part fairly, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. A TPK rarely happens. In the past 8 years and 200+ sessions, I can remember only 2 TPK's. Both of them involved a group who was given the information to succeed and then ignored it, jumped in and got crushed. One group was 2nd level the other 5th. I take no joy in a TPK because I really do want to see the players succeed, but sometimes despite my best efforts, they manage to get killed anyway.
For all of the Pathfinder Society Games I have run - I have had zero TPK's and so far, no character deaths. A few very close calls. Mists of Mwangi: Down to the last two PC's, a cleric and a sorcerer (who was slowly but surely making her way to the door to escape), the cleric managed a killing blow at the end. Otherwise the games have been very balanced.
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Theocrat - your idea about Faction shirts makes sense. If I run a game and someone shows me a shirt before the game starts I'd let them use it for a re-roll during the session. And let me tell you - those come in very handy! Personally I use mine on those natural 1 Will saves.
Re: slots hours - I plan on working within the slot mechanics given at a convention. For instance, I'm going to TotalCon in Mansfield, MA next month and it looks like slots are given in 2-hour chunks. Our Pathfinder stuff is set up to take up 2 of those slots for a 4-hour session. There is at least an hour between each session, which gives us some extra time to work with.
Last GenCon I had a player who had the shirt in his bag, but was in costume and couldn't put the shirt one over what he had on. Other players gave him a hard time over it as they were from a differant faction.
I simply told him to fold his shirt up and put it on his head while he re-rolled the dice. When the player protested I simply stated. "The rules says it has to be worn, it doesn't say how and now the player has it on as a hat."
I think i would have still let him have it as long as I saw the shirt, but it made for a fun moment and everyone laughed.
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Thanks for the words of encouragement, folks!
At any rate, The party ended up consisting of a Fighter, Bard (the temporary), Ranger, Cleric, and Sorceror this time around, far more well-rounded than the last party they put together. Funnily enough, they actually started listening to some of my suggestions--seeing as how they're fairly new to this whole business of tabletop RP games and whatnot--and they actually got through the module without anyone dieing. I really think the Cleric player falls into the support role very well, and is an excellent team player. The Ranger and Fighter are constantly competing for the 'best kill', but I guess that's to be expected. The only one I'm really concerned about is the Sorceror player, as I'm not sure she's having a whole lot of fun as I had hoped. I'll get a chance to talk to her tonight about it, so hopefully we'll straighten something out for her.
Things are definitely looking up for this group, however! At least they lived through this one!