I'm kind of putting together, just for fun, a character that uses a sword and shield. This seems like a much more viable character than in 3.5, so I thought I'd see how it looks. I have some random questions regarding using a shield as a weapon, so I thought I would present them and see what others thought. Please point out anything incorrect I might say.
OK, lets say I have a 15th lvl human fighter with 20 Str and 20 Dex who uses a longsword and a shield.
If he has Improved Shield Bash he can keep the AC bonus from the shield when he uses it to make attacks. That seems pretty straightforward.
Lets say he also has Two-Weapon Fighting. So he could use the shield to make an off-hand attack with the regular penalties. Thus, he could attack with the sword and a light shield at +18/+13/+8 and +18 (just counting BAB, Str and two weapon fighting penalties, not enhancements or other bonuses and penalties). A heavy sheild would be a one handed weapon so using that would drop all his attacks by another -2.
If he took improved TWF he could make a second offhand attack with the shield at +13 (or +11 for a heavy shield), and greater TWF would give a third attack at a +8 (+6).
I think, but I'm not certain, he could instead of using the shield as an offhand weapon use it to make iterative attacks. So he could take a first attack with the sword at +20, a second attack with the shield at +15 (heavy or light), and a third attack with the sword at +10.
If he had Shield Slam, then any attacks he makes with the shield can also get a free bull rush attempt. My understanding is he doesn't have to bull rush if he doesn't want to, but he can on any attacks with the shield that he chooses. He'd make a CMB check after each hit with the shield, using the BAB he used for that attack, combined with any penalties on the attack for TWF.
So for example, using greater TWF and shield slam with a light shield: He makes attacks with his longsword at +18/+13/+8, then attacks with the shield at +18. He decides not to shield slam here. Then with his second off hand attack at +13 he decides to shield slam. He hits and gets a free bull rush attempt with a CMB of +18 (+15 BAB for second iterative offhand attack, +5 Str, -2 TWF.) He beats the targets CMD by 4 and pushes the target back 5 feet, deciding to move with him since he hasn't taken a 5 ft step. He then makes his third off hand attack with the shield at +8 and hits, and makes another shield slam, this time rolling a CMB of +13 (+10 BAB for third iterative offhand attack, +5 Str, -2 TWF). He beats the targets CMD by 8 and pushes the target back another 10 feet, but since he already moved 5 feet and has no move actions left he can't move with the target.
In the above routine, if he were using a heavy shield he would take an additional -2 to all attacks and CMB rolls since his off hand weapon isn't light.
OK, lets add in Shield Master. This says he takes no penalties on his attack rolls with a shield when using another weapon. And he gets to add the shield bonus as an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. (I've read elsewhere that this means just the base shield's shield bonus, not enhancement bonuses to the shield or Shield Focus abilities. Thus a +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy sheilds.) Now if just using the shield in the normal attack routine, not taking extra attacks with TWF, this feat would offer no benefit (aside from the enhancement bonus).
Now if using TWF with sheild master, he takes no penalties to the shield attacks for using another weapon as well. Thus I presume that with a longsword and a light shield our fighter with Greater TWF would full attack at +18/+13/+8 and then with the shield at +20/+15/+10, since he doesn't take the penalty to attacks with the shield. I'm presuming that Shield Master doesn't negate the second and third off hand attack penalties of an additional -5 and -10, although the way the feat is worded it suggests that it might; I just can't see that being the intent though.
Now doing the same routine with a heavy steel shield, it looks like the fighter would get an additional benefit, since shield master should reduce the penalty for using an offhand weapon thats not light. Thus using a longsword and a heavy shield, hed take a full attack at +16/+11/+6 with the sword and +20/+15/+10 with the shield. I may be wrong on this though.
It also looks as if Shield Master would negate penalties to the CMB of making a shield slam when using a shield in a TWFing routine, as appropriate.
Double Slice looks like it should work with using a shield as an offhand weapon. I see no reason why it shouldn't but I may be wrong of course. For the same reasons, Two weapon rend should work as well. Two weapon defense of course wouldn't work, since the shield bonus from the feat wouldn't stack with the actual shield bonus from the shield. (although there could be instances where it would grant a benefit, such as fighting defensively with a non magical light shield, or not having Imp shield bash.)
Finally, the bashing quality added to a shield gives it a +1 enchancement to attacks and damage makes its damage as if it were two sizes larger. Thus, a heavy shield with this property would do 1d8 damage, a light 1d6, plus the enhancement bonus. It looks as if a heavy spiked shield with the bashing property would then do 2d6 damage. The enhancement bonus apparently wouldn't stack with the bonus from Shield Master however, although the damage increase should still work.
So lets say I have a +1 heavy spiked shield of bashing. It gives me a +1 shield enhancement bonus and a +1 enhancement to attack and damage. Lets say I want to add another +1 enhancement to attack and damage, as if it were a magic weapon. Whats the appropriate cost for adding this ability? I'm going to presume that its +6,000 (the cost of making a +1 weapon into a +2 weapon, i.e. 8,000 - 2,000.) even though the shield isn't actually a +1 weapon. I could be wrong on this though. I'm just presuming that the shield is considered to be a +1 weapon for purposes of adding additional weapon properties to it.
One final question: Does someone who uses TWFing and double slice get any additional benefit from Power Attack in the offhand if using a one handed weapon or shield in the offhand? i.e. would he get the -1/+2 benefits on the offhand since hes getting full Str damage, or is it still the -1/+1 benefit. I'm inclined to say the latter.
OK thanks anybody who took the time to read all this. I know its a lot. Please point out any errors I made. Thanks!
Okay, so I did read all of that. Took me a bit, but I think I agree with you all the way up to the point where you talk about spiked shields with the bashing property.
My understanding is this: spikes and bashing don't mix well. It seems to be an order of operations thing. If you have a +1 bashing shield and then add spikes, it seems like nothing would happen. If you had a +1 spiked shield and then added bashing, it seems like it would be treated as three size categories larger for the purpose of damage. Since a PC combines bonuses in the way most beneficial, it seems like you would get the full size upgrade, but I'd talk to your GM (unless you are the GM, then rule how you'd like).
As for the cost of further enhancing the shield, you have to keep in mind that the shield and it's spikes are enhanced separately. So adding a further +1 ability to the shield itself will cost according to the total enhancement bonus. Adding a +1 to the spikes wouldn't stack with the effective +1 enhancement from the bashing property, as they are both enhancement bonuses. The size bonuses to damage, however, would. Adding further +X enhancements to the spikes would then override the +1 from bashing, and would be priced according the weapon table, as shield spikes are a weapon.
Double slice does not increase the category (light, one-handed, two-handed) of the weapon, simply how much strength you add to damage. Power attack looks at weapon category, not strength to damage. So power attacking with an off-hand weapon still is at a 1-to-1 ratio. However, in regards to shields, a light shield is a light weapon (so a 1-to-1 ratio) but a heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, so a 1-to-2 ratio on power attack, regardless of whether you have double slice or not.
I hope that helped.
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The bonus damage from spikes and from the Bashing property stacked in 3.5 ed and I see no reason why that would change in Pathfinder. Yes it's great, it seems it was intentional.
As for further enhancing the attacks with the shield, the bashing property grants a +1 enhancement bonus to hit completely distinct from the spike. I don't see any indication that you can add to this. You would have to start from scratch enchanting the spike. Note, you CAN give the shield without a spike enhancement bonuses to hit/damage, and this is separate from the enhancement bonuses to Shield AC.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.
Yeah, I'm the GM.
I saw another post about the spikes/bashing ability, and it went on and on. I tend towards the "spikes are an add-on" so it stacks camp. So we'll just leave it at that. The other thread got pretty heated and I'd hate for this one to turn into the same.
Yeah I see what ya'll are saying about the bashing + weapon enhancement. It wouldn't stack and its a separate enhancement (one's a shield enhancement, one's a weapon enhancement) so they'd be completely separate. It would take the full 8,000gp to add a +2 enhancement to shield spikes even if the shield has the bashing ability.
After rereading Power Attack, it looks like it would work like this: -1/+2 is the general bonus. If two handed weapon, one handed in two hands, or natural attack that gets 1.5 strength then its an additional 50% (-1/+3). If its an off-hand or secondary attack its reduced by 50% (-1/+1). So the reduced Power Attack benefit doesn't have to do with weapon size, its whether its an off-hand or secondary attack. So for my sword and board warrior his secondary attack (whether its a shield or sword) goes with the -1/+1. The size of the off-hand weapon and double slice feat would be irrelevant.
On the other hand, one can now Power Attack with a light weapon on a -1/+2 basis so long as its not an off-hand attack.
So in theory one could use a heavy shield as the primary attack and then a light weapon as the off hand attack, so as to avoid taking the bigger penalty for TWFing without a light weapon in the off hand. (I note that the shield bash description says that you are "using it as an off-hand weapon" but I don't see why it couldn't be a primary attack as well.)
So back to our 15th lvl 20 Str/20 Dex fighter with shield master and Greater TWF. Hes using a spiked heavy steel shield of bashing as a primary attack and a short sword as an off hand attack. He'd attack with the shield at +22/+17/+12 (+15 BAB +5 Str +2 enhancement from shield master) and he'd attack with the shortsword at +18/+13/+8 (+15 BAB +5 Str -2 TWF). The shield would do 2d6+7 damage (spiked, bashing with a +2 enhancement from shield master), the shortsword would do 1d6+2 (1/2 Str). If he power attacked, he'd take a -4 to attacks and get +8 damage with the shield and +4 with the shortsword.
If he used a longsword as a primary attack and a heavy shield as an off hand attack, he'd attack with the longsword at +16/+11/+6 (this time with a -4 for TWFing since the heavy shield isn't a light weapon) and +22/+17/+12 with the shield. The benefits to damage from Str and Power Attack would be reversed.
OK thanks a bunch guys. Any additional input is still very much welcome.
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So in theory one could use a heavy shield as the primary attack and then a light weapon as the off hand attack, so as to avoid taking the bigger penalty for TWFing without a light weapon in the off hand. (I note that the shield bash description says that you are "using it as an off-hand weapon" but I don't see why it couldn't be a primary attack as well.)
For the record, I'm not 100% sold on this being legal. In my opinion (and it's just that, my opinion) you CAN use a shield bash as a primary attack, if it's your only attack. Once you go sword'n'board the shield ought to be the off-hand attack. The only rule-based reason I think is that it would seem useless for Shield Mastery to offset only the shield penalty for 2WF if you could just declare it the primary weapon and avoid the penalties for the light weapon in your other hand.
Shield Bash specifically says that it is an off-hand attack. Barring a houserule, the rules say that it is always an off-hand attack. Not that it would be an unreasonable houserule for someone who wanted to go all Captain America and just fight with a shield. I don't see any way to treat a weapon as off-hand while wielding a shield.
Fair enough on the sheild as off-hand.
Personally I would think that any weapon or potential attack should be usable as a primary attack or your only attack. It doesn't make sense to me that Mr. Fighter could shield bash when he has a sword in his other hand, but not if his other hand is empty! You'd think he'd be even better at it if his sword hand were empty!
I just tend to think that the language in the shield bash entries is more descriptive than mandatory; its telling you an additional way it can be used--and in fact the most likely way it would be used--as opposed to the ONLY way it can be used. No other weapon or attack has this limitation of only being able to be used as an off-hand attack. Even armor spikes specifically say they can be used as regular melee attack or an off-hand attack, but a shield could not? Just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks again for the feedback!
Take throw anything feat and returning property on the shield and bashing and then go "Captain America on their ass". The shield beat feats should be good because you now upgrade a piece of ignored armor instead of a weapon (feats and magic).
Put merciful on the shield so it only does nonlethal damage a you have a bad ass pacifist. Hmmm...Mr. Fishy thinks you may have just given him a new character idea, Captain Andoran.
Shield Bash specifically says that it is an off-hand attack. Barring a houserule, the rules say that it is always an off-hand attack. Not that it would be an unreasonable houserule for someone who wanted to go all Captain America and just fight with a shield. I don't see any way to treat a weapon as off-hand while wielding a shield.
Funny that there hasn't been any rules for wielding an off-hand weapon without dual-wielding since 3.0 D&D. The term "off-hand" doesn't even apply unless you are dual-wielding.
If I have a shield, and only a shield, to attack with, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it is anything other than a primary weapon (much less that it should be taking penalties to hit).
If I can do this, is there any real reason I shouldn't be allowed to make the shield my primary mode of attack (say, when used with a dagger)?
I really don't believe the rules on shield bashing are as rigid as you imply.
Note that it does not say "off-hand weapon". It says "off-hand attack". It can be your primary weapon, if you'd like, I guess, but it still takes the penalties of being an off hand attack. This is where the houserule (simple though it may be) comes in. Nor am I saying you would be wrong to do so. I would in my games if someone wanted to fight with just a shield. However, sensible or not, it is still a houserule. As everyone has their own houserules, I cannot comment based on mine or yours or anyone's. I have to comment based on the rules as written, since it's the only common ground I know we all have.
Note that it does not say "off-hand weapon". It says "off-hand attack". It can be your primary weapon, if you'd like, I guess, but it still takes the penalties of being an off hand attack. This is where the houserule (simple though it may be) comes in. Nor am I saying you would be wrong to do so. I would in my games if someone wanted to fight with just a shield. However, sensible or not, it is still a houserule. As everyone has their own houserules, I cannot comment based on mine or yours or anyone's. I have to comment based on the rules as written, since it's the only common ground I know we all have.
Except that you would never make an off-hand attack if you aren't wielding an off-hand weapon. It's impossible to be wielding an off-hand weapon if you only ever have one weapon.
The term off-hand only applies when you are duel-wielding, or wielding a double weapon.
Also, where does it say off-hand attack specifically? I can't seem to find anything other than off-hand weapon.
Hrm. You are right. It does say "off-hand weapon". I could have sworn I had chosen the phrase "off-hand attack" in my earlier post because that's what the book said. Mea culpa.
This doesn't, however, change the fact that it's still an off-hand weapon. You mention that there haven't been rules for using an off-hand weapon outside of two-weapon fighting since 3.0. Well, it seems that Pathfinder has them. At least for shields.
Well, it seems that Pathfinder has them. At least for shields.
Then please explain to me, in full, how they are meant to work then. If your statement is correct, then the rules are incomplete, at best.