I have some questions regarding the "Horse" entry. Acc'd to Bestiary p177 a light horse gets two hoof attacks w/penalty if not combat trained and damage d4. All well and good. A heavy horse, gains a bite attack at d4 & hoof damage is increased to d6 (this is whether or not it is combat trained, I presume, and is due to increased muscle mass not increased training). The "heavy" also gains the "advanced simple" template which will increase all scores by four. Is that a typo, by the way? Should a draft horse truly have an intelligence of 6? Should it really be able to retain the vocabulary of the average undead shadow? Should its charisma really be on par with the average human?
Now, on Core p.54, under the listing for a Horse animal companion, the horse is listed as having a bite attack & 2 hooves. Does this mean that an animal companion horse is always a "heavy" horse or does this mean that animal companions are inherently special? Also, there is no mention of the "docile" quality that penalizes the horses' hoof (but not bite) attacks.
To clarify my questions and make them easier to answer, I'll number them:
1) Should a heavy horse get an Int6 & Cha11?
2) Should a horse companion of a Lv1 Druid have a bite attack in addition to it's hoof attacks?
3) Does the horse companion retain the "docile" quality until it receives the "war trained" bonus training at Lv4 or are animal companions always considered non-docile?
4) Does the docile quality only apply to hooves or does it also apply to the bite attack of a non-war-trained heavy horse?
5) Is an animal companion horse always a heavy horse?I hope these questions aren't overly nit-picky. I'm trying to build a druid and I just want to do it right.
I can help you with the first one: Charisma goes up, but Intelligence doesn't. Intelligence on animals can't go up past 2 without making it into a magical beast (which the template clearly does not do).
One of the designers clarified this not but a week ago. I'd post a link if I could remember where it was said.
Do you know if that rule applies only to animals or if the +4 Int applies to all non-animal (advanced, simple) critters? I have no problem with this. I can see a Goblin hero, for example being both smarter and stronger than is typical for his kind.
Though I wouldn't reccomend putting it on a creature with no racial hit dice, non-animals get full benefit from the template as they don't have any ability score limitations.
For example, a normally stupid giant with this template would actually be quite intelligent and charismatic.
So there's no correcting errata about the advanced simple template for horses?
I mean, sure, heavy horses always used to be tougher, while light horses used to be faster.
But heavy horses that are more dextrous than light ones, and wiser, and more charming? That's complete nonsense.
I hope someone at Paizo will adress this.
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I have some questions regarding the "Horse" entry. Acc'd to Bestiary p177 a light horse gets two hoof attacks w/penalty if not combat trained and damage d4. All well and good. A heavy horse, gains a bite attack at d4 & hoof damage is increased to d6 (this is whether or not it is combat trained, I presume, and is due to increased muscle mass not increased training). The "heavy" also gains the "advanced simple" template which will increase all scores by four. Is that a typo, by the way? Should a draft horse truly have an intelligence of 6? Should it really be able to retain the vocabulary of the average undead shadow? Should its charisma really be on par with the average human?
Now, on Core p.54, under the listing for a Horse animal companion, the horse is listed as having a bite attack & 2 hooves. Does this mean that an animal companion horse is always a "heavy" horse or does this mean that animal companions are inherently special? Also, there is no mention of the "docile" quality that penalizes the horses' hoof (but not bite) attacks.
To clarify my questions and make them easier to answer, I'll number them:
1) Should a heavy horse get an Int6 & Cha11?
2) Should a horse companion of a Lv1 Druid have a bite attack in addition to it's hoof attacks?
3) Does the horse companion retain the "docile" quality until it receives the "war trained" bonus training at Lv4 or are animal companions always considered non-docile?
4) Does the docile quality only apply to hooves or does it also apply to the bite attack of a non-war-trained heavy horse?
5) Is an animal companion horse always a heavy horse?I hope these questions aren't overly nit-picky. I'm trying to build a druid and I just want to do it right.
Unless you're Horse becomes an Animal Companion or a Magical Creature, its INT is capped at 2. All other stats get the +4 boost. And yes, Horses can be very charasmatic.
James Jacobs has said that the Simple Templates are intended to be used with the Quick Rules, not the Rebuild Rules. For a Heavy Warhorse, that means it gets +2 on all rolls, +4 to AC and CMD, and +2 hp/HD. No need to adjust stats at all.
Yes, simple templates like celestial explicitly say "quick and rebuild rules are the same".
On contrary. advanced does have a separate rebuild entry.
Even if you know that animal int is capped to 2 and ignore the wisdom and charisma issue - a heavy horse should not be more dextrous than a a light one. Also, a light horse should be quicker than a heavy one.
Neither is adressed.
Ranger characters I've been playing used to ride light horses so they could use the higher speed for scouting, while the heavy horses of other characters used to carry barding and serve in melee battle.
Now, as things are, no character with any sense would use a light horse.
If there is a bug, fine, such things happen and can be corrected.
To defend a bug by declaring it not to be a bug just because it's been around for a while does not make any sense.
So please let's start and upload a V1.1 errata for the bestiary second printing.
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I can help you with the first one: Charisma goes up, but Intelligence doesn't. Intelligence on animals can't go up past 2 without making it into a magical beast (which the template clearly does not do).
One of the designers clarified this not but a week ago. I'd post a link if I...
I was helping one of my players design her animal companion (a lion) the other day, and something in the Druid chapter of the Core Rulebook didn't make much sense to me about animal companions, that basically being "if you raise your animal companion's Intelligence stat to 12 or above then they will get bonus skill points per hit die", and then I looked at the entry for Animal in the back of the Bestiary and it said "no animal can have an intelligence higher than 2, or it is a magical beast", and then my head exploded.
I house-ruled to ignore the entry about raising the Intelligence score of an animal companion in the Druid section of the Core Rulebook because I did not want a normal lion becoming a magical beast just because it started learning how to speak Ancient Azlanti backwards. The player was going for nasty damage lion so all stat bonuses are going to physical ability scores, except for maybe Wisdom now and then.
greetings, fellow travelers.
the ac is not an animal as per the rules/mechanics anymore. though i doubt it can ever start talking - sticking to your lion - it has been stated and debated quite often, that raising its int to 3 is possible (see tm's guide on druids, e. g.) - and removes the necessity to rely on handling animal tricks for getting it to do what you want, because it then understands verbal commands.
ruyan