| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
When grappling someone, you may move up to half your speed. What about non-standard movement modes such as burrow? Can an adult blue dragon grab the party fighter in a grapple and then burrow deep into the earth only to leave said fighter there, buried alive? Can the dragon then pop out underneath the party rogue, fly high into the air with him in his clutches only to drop him from obscene heights?
If this is possible, then it is an extremely effective combat tactic for large several kinds of creatures.
It's been a pretty common tactic for dragons to grapple opponents, fly into the air and drop them. I would consider burying them with burrow to be a refreshing take on this. There's also all the water creatures who grapple and then try to drown opponents.
I would say both rules and fluff completely support this.
As a DM, I probably would rule that if you burrow with another creature, you have to leave a tunnel behind, and you can't "earth glide" while holding another creature (well, maybe if you had the "swallow whole" ability).
I would say go for it but i would probably use the +2/-2 rule of thumb and say there is a -2 penalty to your grapple check if you try to drag the opponent underground. It is certainly harder then bringing them into the air or under water. Thats just me though.
Is there any place in the PFRPG rules that explains how burrowing works, similar to:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow
?
I can't find one.
Now, when attempting to bury a foe, I'm sure it counts as a hazard so when the dragon attempts to deposit the fighter (or whoever else) into the earth the victim gets a free grapple check to attempt an escape (with a +4 bonus). The thing is, if they break free they are still buried alive (as the placing of the target doesn't occur until after both grapplers are underground). If they don't break free and you let them go, they are still buried alive.
Do you think they should get the free break attempt the moment burrowing starts? (So that, should they succeed, they WON'T be buried alive.)
This question applies to flying creatures as well. If the dragon is about to take flight with the fighter, shouldn't the fighter first get a free escape attempt here as well?
Do you think they should get the free break attempt the moment burrowing starts? (So that, should they succeed, they WON'T be buried alive.)
This question applies to flying creatures as well. If the dragon is about to take flight with the fighter, shouldn't the fighter first get a free escape attempt here as well?
Yes, and yes. They specifically mention placing your foe "over a pit", so I suspect "over the ground" or "under the ground" would qualify as well.
The missing Burrow rules have been added to d20pfsrd.com and pretty much all references to burrow should link to the rules. Hopefully Paizo will fix the PRD relatively soon as well. I just copied the rules from d20srd.org then linked all monsters and spells which grant burrow to those rules.
The question that occurs to me is "Are the appendages the critter uses to burrow the same ones he's using to grapple ?". In the case of the flying critter, the wings are almost always seperate and can certainly be used to fly whilst grappling with the others (except perhaps for load limits on flying). But Giant Mole-men ? I'd say the same arms they're using to grapple are the ones needed to burrow with. So take the -4 penalty and burrow at half speed.
The missing Burrow rules have been added to d20pfsrd.com and pretty much all references to burrow should link to the rules. Hopefully Paizo will fix the PRD relatively soon as well. I just copied the rules from d20srd.org then linked all monsters and spells which grant burrow to those rules.
There are missing burrow rules?
When grappling someone, you may move up to half your speed. What about non-standard movement modes such as burrow? Can an adult blue dragon grab the party fighter in a grapple and then burrow deep into the earth only to leave said fighter there, buried alive? Can the dragon then pop out underneath the party rogue, fly high into the air with him in his clutches only to drop him from obscene heights?
If this is possible, then it is an extremely effective combat tactic for large several kinds of creatures.
Only if burrow is an EX ability of the creature.
Only if burrow is an EX ability of the creature.When grappling someone, you may move up to half your speed. What about non-standard movement modes such as burrow? Can an adult blue dragon grab the party fighter in a grapple and then burrow deep into the earth only to leave said fighter there, buried alive? Can the dragon then pop out underneath the party rogue, fly high into the air with him in his clutches only to drop him from obscene heights?
If this is possible, then it is an extremely effective combat tactic for several kinds of large creatures.
I don't see why that would matter. If he has a burrow speed, then the grapple rules let him move half of it while dragging some poor smuck. It doesn't matter if it is magical in nature or not.
There are missing burrow rules?
If they are in the PRD I could not find them. I copied them from d20srd.org.
Now, what about, say... grapple and earthglide?
Now, what about, say... grapple and earthglide?
I used it in an epic v3.5 game I once hosted. I don't know that it is perfectly legal though.
*bump* Still looking for an answer.
I think Burrow is fine, definitely with the free check to Escape BEFORE being moved to an inherently dangerous location.
They are necessarily moving with their Grappler, and normal characters CAN dig thru any substance (see Cave-In/Avalanche rules),
it just takes much more time/actions to do so, the Grappler's Burrow ability is just bypassing that action/time requirement...
If that happens to a creature, they can still try to dig their way out, even if that's difficult,
they don't insta-die, it would pretty much be equivalent to a Cave-In situation:
Characters who aren't buried can dig out their friends. In 1 minute, using only her hands, a character can clear rocks and debris equal to five times her heavy load limit. The amount of loose stone that fills a 5-foot-by-5-foot area weighs 1 ton (2,000 pounds). Armed with an appropriate tool, such as a pick, crowbar, or shovel, a digger can clear loose stone twice as quickly as by hand. A buried character can attempt to free himself with a DC 25 Strength check.
Burrowing is not like Earthgliding, it is not just gliding thru the earth/rock undisturbed, it actually is digging, even it doesn't leave a tunnel behind, it is basically the tunnel collapsing behind/around them, so it leaves loose debris that can be dug out by other characters using the above rules.
Re: Earthglide there is the Gray Disciple Duergar Monk Racial Archetype that gains a specific Entomb ability allowing Bullrushing into stone, which insta-kills the target (if they don't earthglide themself). I don't think without that ability that they could do such a thing vs. an unwilling target, with Bullrush or Grapple... If they could, there would be no point in the ability. Only if they are carrying a willing/unconscious character as "gear" could they carry a creature with them thru the Earth.
BTW: It seems rather un-necessary that Burrow speeds are as high as they are, even if they are usually somewhat slower than land speeds. If a Burrower wants to all-out, they can use the Run action. Otherwise, a Burrow Speed shouldn't ever be more than 10 at most, if not 5.
Although that reminds of an issue which really could use FAQ clarification: 5' Steps and non-traditional movement. Are 5' Steps only possible with a listed Movement Speed/mode? I.e. you can't 5' step while swimming unless you have a Swim Speed? But with a Swim Speed (or Burrow Speed) you can? I know what the general consensus is there, but it's far from clear in the rules, and really seems like a solid FAQ entry.