Do explain how this is easier (I said simpler but whatever, I think it's easier too) because I'm not seeing it.For some folks, it's easier to say "you can't use money to break the game". Which is what the Wish Economy does.
By eliminating the ability to buy the powerful magic items, but allowing the more common ones to be freely bought and sold, you no longer worry as a GM about what they have for minor things (in theory) and can focus on things of +3 value and greater.
Pathfinder's market in the book arguably has something similar (this was introduced in 3.0), because towns now have a wealth limit on what players can easily find in the town, with the town having a 75% chance any item of lower value being there.
For some people, this is easier than controlling what the players can get their hands on. It works better in high magic campaigns and does not require metagaming or nerfing spells, but follows implications to logical conclusions.
hmm. I suppose the best way to say what I want to say is:
"I understand this".
In point of fact, this economy is precisely how characters operate in the New World of Darkness setting and splatbooks, published by White Wolf.
You've got Vampires with centuries-long life spans, enhanced intelligence, and powers to dominate the mind and shatter the body, who can arrange for whatever they desire. You've got Mages capable of conjuring, summoning, or otherwise acquiring literally anything they want. You've got Werewolves, Changlings, and other things capable of bartering with beings outside this world to get things they need.
Except for a few things.
Things like a safe place to sleep at night. It doesn't matter if you pay your guards 1,000 dollars a day if someone can: hand them 100,000 dollars to look the other way / teleport / turn invisible / turn into mist / dominate / etc and get in. You need mystical protections, the kind that no amount of money can buy.
You want a magic sword or gun? There's lots of Mages who can make you one, but you've got to convince them to give up a little part of their soul in order to make it real and lasting. What's a piece of someone's soul worth?
So, I understand what's being discussed here. It's an economy of favors.
We're talking about time and and resources - you need someone who can reliably summon an effreet safely and negotiate with it successfully, and you need something they want in order to get that. If you have the ability to make things they want, or do things they want done, you can barter.
Whether or not I want this sort of thing in my FIGHTER SMASH PUNY KOBOLD game is another matter entirely.
Introducing something like this changes the way the game is played at higher levels. It turns every significant magic item into a convoluted quest for someone who has something who wants something done for someone else who really wants a different thing, all in order to get the thing that another person...
There is also annother option. Creating a new source for currency that peopel with power respect. My GM had Dross in a game. They were a chunck of human essance that gods tap for their powers. Gods used them to barter, as 10 of them could increase a gods divine rank. Humans could use them in rituals for things like creating permanent blessings/curses, imbune themselves with new feats or powers, ect. It was up to your immagination.
Why? Because the people who have these things that they desire are also fabulously wealthy and can cook up a boatload of gold with little or no effort - so they aren't as willing to part with something that they do perceive as rare/valuable (said dragonslayer) for something that they already have in great abundance and can easily get more of (gold).
But then why is anyone poor in a world where the Archbishop of Pelor can whomp up a king's ransom for every peasant? Or, alternatively, why does gold have any value in Fooland when the King of Barland can trivially ruin the gold economy by flooding it with money?
(Lame answers I've received in the past include: "The Church of Pelor really wants people to be poor and miserable, and kings don't really want to ruin the economies of their enemies." and "Wait, did I say limitless money? I meant a bunch of money.")
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Why? Because the people who have these things that they desire are also fabulously wealthy and can cook up a boatload of gold with little or no effort - so they aren't as willing to part with something that they do perceive as rare/valuable (said dragonslayer) for something that they already have in great abundance and can easily get more of (gold).But then why is anyone poor in a world where the Archbishop of Pelor can whomp up a king's ransom for every peasant? Or, alternatively, why does gold have any value in Fooland when the King of Barland can trivially ruin the gold economy by flooding it with money?
(Lame answers I've received in the past include: "The Church of Pelor really wants people to be poor and miserable, and kings don't really want to ruin the economies of their enemies." and "Wait, did I say limitless money? I meant a bunch of money.")
Because.
It's not an instantaneous, automatic process without any risk. The archbishop doesn't just snap his fingers and get what he wants -he has to ask and earn and convince.
Because Pelor doesn't want it to happen. Humanity is, in general, pretty stupid and reckless. For instance:
If you were to hand the average person walking down the street a million dollars, what would happen? Would that person's life really be better? Short term, yes of course, but would there be any real, long-lasting improvements, or would they end up shooting themselves in the foot?
Now, expand that. What would happen if you suddenly did that to everyone at the same time? The smart, intelligent, creative, and resourceful people would do very well indeed, but the rest, the other 99.9% of the population, would suffer horribly.
If everyone has a million dollars, and you have enough spare food to feed one person, what is your spare food worth? Do you even want money for it all? What happens to you when people go from barely able to scrap by to unable to feed themselves because they don't have anything of value, and you're standing there with that food?
To put it another way: The archbishop and his assistants can go off and blow up the local economy thereby creating tremendous social upheaval which would lead to violence and death, or they can preach about goodness and love and try to help in ways that matter.
After all, when was the last time you heard about anyone actually starving to death in game? Who says the church of pelor isn't already doing everyhting it can without causing severe social instability?
A million dollars spent poorly is worth less than a hundred dollars spent wisely. Feed the entire town fish for free, and they'll just have more free time and need something to do, but teach one person in town to fish, and you've added food to the entire community for a lifetime, and made one person's life markedly better in the process.
Of course, you could use these amazing resources to set about doing just that, only on a grand scale. Enacting real, long term social improvements in the right way.
But here's the thing: the bad guys, the liches, the demons and devils and darker things are out there trying to do the exact opposite.
Why? Because the people who have these things that they desire are also fabulously wealthy and can cook up a boatload of gold with little or no effort - so they aren't as willing to part with something that they do perceive as rare/valuable (said dragonslayer) for something that they already have in great abundance and can easily get more of (gold).But then why is anyone poor in a world where the Archbishop of Pelor can whomp up a king's ransom for every peasant? Or, alternatively, why does gold have any value in Fooland when the King of Barland can trivially ruin the gold economy by flooding it with money?
(Lame answers I've received in the past include: "The Church of Pelor really wants people to be poor and miserable, and kings don't really want to ruin the economies of their enemies." and "Wait, did I say limitless money? I meant a bunch of money.")
Because.
It's not an instantaneous, automatic process without any risk. The archbishop doesn't just snap his fingers and get what he wants -he has to ask and earn and convince.
Because Pelor doesn't want it to happen. Humanity is, in general, pretty stupid and reckless. For instance:
If you were to hand the average person walking down the street a million dollars, what would happen? Would that person's life really be better? Short term, yes of course, but would there be any real, long-lasting improvements, or would they end up shooting themselves in the foot?
Now, expand that. What would happen if you suddenly did that to everyone at the same time? The smart, intelligent, creative, and resourceful people would do very well indeed, but the rest, the other 99.9% of the population, would suffer horribly.
If everyone has a million dollars, and you have enough spare food to feed one person, what is your spare food worth? Do you even want money for it all? What happens to you when people go from barely able to scrap by to unable to feed...
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.It doesn't matter, he'd still run into the problems of scarcity in other forms.
Right, and then the genuinely scarce stuff is valuable. Like it is in, you know, real-world economics.
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Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.
Seems to me that food is construed as trade goods with a gp value...something that the wish still could not exceed safely.
1lb of wheat is 1 cp.
Fast fact checking (flawed probably) is roughly 1.5 lbs of wheat per loaf of bread.
One Loaf, no labor accounted is 1.5 cp.
Assume a small nation in modern times as a Golarion moderate sized nation, say Denmark for Taldor?
5,497,525 people...
One loaf of bread per person per day would be... 8,246,287 cp
So 82,365 gold pieces for one loaf of bread for everyone in "Taldor" per day...not accounting for costs of production or labor...and the wizard has to cough up 25 grand in gp to do this?
Uh yeah. Farming is here to stay.
Edit, for fun: 30,063,225 gp per year for a starving population of one loaf of bread per person at a cost of 9,125,000 to cast wish 365 times. that is a lot of "super-clarity" diamonds or whatever ; - p
You mean like gold ;)
Right, and then the genuinely scarce stuff is valuable. Like it is in, you know, real-world economics.
...and the premises for the discussion oscillate once again from "Powerful people have unlimited resources artificially limited by mutual agreement" to " Powerful people have limited resources".
:-/
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.
Seems to me that food is construed as trade goods with a gp value...something that the wish still could not exceed safely.
1lb of wheat is 1 cp.
Fast fact checking (flawed probably) is roughly 1.5 lbs of wheat per loaf of bread.
One Loaf, no labor accounted is 1.5 cp.
Assume a small nation in modern times as a Golarion moderate sized nation, say Denmark for Taldor?
5,497,525 people...
One loaf of bread per person per day would be... 8,246,287 cp
So 82,365 gold pieces for one loaf of bread for everyone in "Taldor" per day...not accounting for costs of production or labor...and the wizard has to cough up 25 grand in gp to do this?
Uh yeah. Farming is here to stay.
Edit, for fun: 30,063,225 gp per year for a starving population of one loaf of bread per person at a cost of 9,125,000 to cast wish 365 times. that is a lot of "super-clarity" diamonds or whatever ; - p
By your own math, you prove my point. You get 15K in GP value every casting. 6 castings, and you could pay that.
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By your own math, you prove my point. You get 15K in GP value every casting. 6 castings, and you could pay that.
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.
Seems to me that food is construed as trade goods with a gp value...something that the wish still could not exceed safely.
1lb of wheat is 1 cp.
Fast fact checking (flawed probably) is roughly 1.5 lbs of wheat per loaf of bread.
One Loaf, no labor accounted is 1.5 cp.
Assume a small nation in modern times as a Golarion moderate sized nation, say Denmark for Taldor?
5,497,525 people...
One loaf of bread per person per day would be... 8,246,287 cp
So 82,365 gold pieces for one loaf of bread for everyone in "Taldor" per day...not accounting for costs of production or labor...and the wizard has to cough up 25 grand in gp to do this?
Uh yeah. Farming is here to stay.
Edit, for fun: 30,063,225 gp per year for a starving population of one loaf of bread per person at a cost of 9,125,000 to cast wish 365 times. that is a lot of "super-clarity" diamonds or whatever ; - p
6 x 15k = 90k in wheat.
6 x 25k in spell components = 150k in costsNet loss of 60k? Am I missing something?
...unless we are back to the efreet casting all this for you? At which point the moment you ask for a "nation's worth of food" I am sure that would be good for a laugh...
But let us take this to the extreme that it is taken at.
6 castings @ no cost (with no presumed penalty for "misinterpretation" would acquire your necessary 8,246,287 pounds of wheat flour. You would move and bake this how? Paying the entire nation to bake? Or are you simply wishing 916,255 loaves of bread into existence at a time (which would cost more than my previous math but I will cut some corners) those six times? Instructing the wish to parse the nation equitably to serve said bread? That is a little beyond the power of the spell wouldn't you say?
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Exactly. Gold is money, and money, by itself, is a basis of exchange. The wish could be for money, or food, or shoes, or...
But there's a limit to how many times per day you can do this. There's also the time involved - casting its is fairly quick, but making sure the right things are asked for in the right way takes time. Generic statements work some of the time, but specific needs are going to come up, and need to be worded carefully.
Also, there's not enough wishes/miracles/etc out there.
As mentioned, it would take an archbishop five castings of miracle to feed the entire nation each day, assuming a 20th level caster (and how many of those are running around your campaign setting?). That's only the most basic of foods; they still need additional nutrition, which means either the food gets better (thus needing more wishes) or additional nutrition is needed (thus needing more wishes). And the nation needs clothing, and shoes, and homes, and replacement clothing/shoes/homes, and transportation, and so on.
And then, the peasants say, if our leaders can do all of this, why don't they pave the roads, remove the bandits, eliminate taxes? Why can't we have food that tastes good instead of just being nutritional, and why are we wearing burlap when we could have silk, and it's not fair that you people have those things and not us, we're just as capable of praying to pelor as you are, and we know you just read pre-written canned wishes, so we should take over and...
well, see, things are not simple. Dramatic sweeping changes to society, like free food or money or what-have-you, leads to even more dramatic sweeping changes. Things get out of hand.
Of course, you could also wish for the peasants to simply not riot and behave themselves and do what they are told without question and serve as your willing slaves forever, but that's crossing a line that (hopefully) you don't want to cross.
This thread is about following things through to their logical conclusion. Opening up wishes on the general populace is a great way to do a quick and dirty fix for a temporary solution - in fact, that's a great quest, going off to find a wizard who can provide food to keep the peasants from rioting and dying. But trying to use them as a long-term answer to problems only leads to more problems.
Leaving people to mostly fend for themselves and work their own way up the social ladder is terribly cruel, but it's also fair, unlike other systems, and it actually works, unlike other systems. Save the big guns for emergencies, do what you can to alleviate suffering, and let them live their lives without interference from big world folks like yourself. They are generally happier that way.
EDIT: when did this turn into a debate about Capitalism vs Communism? Are we still on topic?
By your own math, you prove my point. You get 15K in GP value every casting. 6 castings, and you could pay that.
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.
Seems to me that food is construed as trade goods with a gp value...something that the wish still could not exceed safely.
1lb of wheat is 1 cp.
Fast fact checking (flawed probably) is roughly 1.5 lbs of wheat per loaf of bread.
One Loaf, no labor accounted is 1.5 cp.
Assume a small nation in modern times as a Golarion moderate sized nation, say Denmark for Taldor?
5,497,525 people...
One loaf of bread per person per day would be... 8,246,287 cp
So 82,365 gold pieces for one loaf of bread for everyone in "Taldor" per day...not accounting for costs of production or labor...and the wizard has to cough up 25 grand in gp to do this?
Uh yeah. Farming is here to stay.
Edit, for fun: 30,063,225 gp per year for a starving population of one loaf of bread per person at a cost of 9,125,000 to cast wish 365 times. that is a lot of "super-clarity" diamonds or whatever ; - p
6 x 15k = 90k in wheat.
6 x 25k in spell components = 150k in costsNet loss of 60k? Am I missing something?
...unless we are back to the efreet casting all this for you? At which point the moment you ask for a "nation's worth of food" I am sure that would be good for a laugh...
But let us take this to the extreme that it is taken at.
6 castings @ no cost (with no presumed penalty for "misinterpretation" would acquire your necessary 8,246,287 pounds of wheat flour. You would move and bake this how? Paying the entire nation to bake? Or are you simply wishing 916,255 loaves of bread into existence at a time (which would cost more than my previous math but I will cut some corners) those six times? Instructing the wish to parse the nation equitably to serve...
In 3.0, where the wish economy works, you can use plannar binding to summon an efreet. The efreet casts wish at no cost. Thats why the economy works.
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In 3.0, where the wish economy works, you can use plannar binding to summon an efreet. The efreet casts wish at no cost. Thats why the economy works.
Oh no I get it, sorry it seemed like the thread had drifted away from efreet binding but I am back on that
Edit: (edited for clarity) That is still a lot of wishing and that is still a lot of big mumbo jumbo, even were you to parse your wishes into all very reasonable ones, but in most setting it seems like there would be extensive consequences for some guy walking around with unlimited wishes...most notable no reason to play the game.
Edit 2: But BobChuck pretty much covers what I mean so I will let his point stand and say "+1"
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Only tangentally related, but it's all I have to contribute, from a house rules discussion for my campaign.
So we've decided to stop tracking experience. The next logical step is
to stop tracking wealth. None of us like doing taxes to enjoy our
game, so lets stop that, shall we?It came to me, in a discussion on the appropriate price for a luck
blade, that GP costs for magic items are pretty silly. One, once you
get up in levels you could buy a city for the resell value of your
gear. Two, when you get spells like Fabricate and Planar Binding, you
could make all the gold you want. Which jacks the economy out of a
second story window. In my arguing that luck blades were not
underpriced, I realized that raising or lowering the price of a magic
item is just the DM saying yes or no to your purchase. So, why keep
playing that game?Which leads me to the newest houserule. Any magic item that costs more
than 1k or so, you cannot buy with gold. People don't sell that kind
of stuff for shiny metal bits. You're going to have to barter that
with other items or favors.What about when you want to use those Item Creation feats you picked
up? Go ahead. No cost. But I'll tell you when and if you can create
that item.So if I want you to have that +5 Vorpal Greataxe at 1st, or
at 20th, you'll get it then. When you want to find a new Cloak of
Resistance, let me know, and we'll work it out. Either roleplay or
handwave it.So how do I know when you have too much? Well, we have handy character
generator programs that will let us add up all your items and see how
close to the wealth limits you are. That's about the only use I see
for WBL now, and that's just a loose estimate.Thoughts?
Thoughts?
It's quite reasonable, but why not delete this paragraph:
Which leads me to the newest houserule. Any magic item that costs more than 1k or so, you cannot buy with gold. People don't sell that kind of stuff for shiny metal bits. You're going to have to barter that with other items or favors.
...and just say you "roleplay or handwave" all purchases, large or small? That way you avoid any weird situations where someone might genuinely want to sell a magic item (for whatever reason), but a giant invisible DM forcefield prevents him from doing so.
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...and just say you "roleplay or handwave" all purchases, large or small? That way you avoid any weird situations where someone might genuinely want to sell a magic item (for whatever reason), but a giant invisible DM forcefield prevents him from doing so.
Good catch. I will have to consider it further. My main idea is to make sure they have what they want/need to minimize the selling off of items.
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I've never seen the "Wish Economy" become a problem in any of the games I've played or ran. On a similar note, we have run games in the 12-15 range where we just don't track purchases less than 50 gp. I could see how, in a high-level campaign or when a DM needs to rein in a Monty Haul game the barter system or some form of magicl currency might be needed. The physics of just having transactions of more than 1000 gp would be tedious.
I've never seen the "Wish Economy" become a problem in any of the games I've played or ran. On a similar note, we have run games in the 12-15 range where we just don't track purchases less than 50 gp. I could see how, in a high-level campaign or when a DM needs to rein in a Monty Haul game the barter system or some form of magicl currency might be needed. The physics of just having transactions of more than 1000 gp would be tedious.
Actually, I think the point of the system is like your: don't care about less than 50g, only more like, don't care about less than 15000g.
[sarcasm] Wait, are you saying that you're screwing your players over and denying them a PURELY LEGAL character concept?!? ;) [/sarcasm]Apparently you're taking a straw man out into the parking lot and beating him. (Never mind that Pun Pun doesn't work, strict RAW. But that's a matter for a different thread.)
Introducing something like this changes the way the game is played at higher levels. It turns every significant magic item into a convoluted quest for someone who has something who wants something done for someone else who really wants a different thing, all in order to get the thing that another person wants in exchange for helping out the person who's actually going to make the damn magic item.That's only if you use the barter system after 15K. All you need is a currency that you can't wish for, and you're not stuck with the barter headaches any more. People have suggested a number of different currencies for this.
Just... just.... stop it right there. The Books, the RAW, are meant to be a starting point for Gamemastering, not a set of FORTRAN punch cards that dictate campaign design and execution.
The wish economy has always been a set of house rules. It just patches the non-functional RAW in a different place.
Except they don't have to wish for money. They could wish for food and farming would go away. 1 Wizard doing this could feed an entire nation.They can't wish for those things to go away any more than they can fireball those things away. Wish isn't "I do anything lol"; those wishes either don't work or don't work the way you'd like. Wish has a set list of things it does safely and effectively and removing the need to eat or farm isn't one of them.
But you can wish for absurd amounts of people to have food if you word it correctly. As we said, 6 wishes a day will feed all of Denmark a loaf of bread.
On a similar note, we have run games in the 12-15 range where we just don't track purchases less than 50 gp. I could see how, in a high-level campaign or when a DM needs to rein in a Monty Haul game the barter system or some form of magicl currency might be needed. The physics of just having transactions of more than 1000 gp would be tedious.
Looking at pg 405 of the PFRPG "Cost of Living" provides a threshold for purchases you don't have to track, depending on the cost of living you're ponying up.
You know, Pun-Pun and...
How can you possibly make Pun-Pun WITHOUT FR material? I hadn't heard that yet.
This is an interesting post and one that covers a topic I hadn't encountered before due to the preferences of myself and my group.
That said, this whole thread has been a gasoline-based highlighter for illustrating why I hate D&D/PF's dependence upon magic items.
Whether it's in the upcoming GMG or APG or a future installment, I hope somewhere along the way Paizo provides recommendations or alternatives for significantly reducing or outright eliminating the system "need" for magic items and restoring them to the status of "rare, but wondrous".
If an efreeti's Wish ability has value, they'll want full value for it. Forcing them to cast it is robbing them, effectively. They will care - short term slavery is still slavery. Not to mention being interrupted at inconvenient times day after day because stupid wizards/whatnot keep Calling you to the Prime Material.It comes at no cost to themselves other than time, it forms the basis of their economy, it's free networking with all the most powerful creatures in all the planes, and, most importantly, it forever guarantees the sovereignty and safety of the City of Brass. It's not a great job, but presumably there's some control of who's stuck with the scut work.
You're talking about an EXCHANGE here, not a 'summon them up and make them grant wishes'. If an EXCHANGE is involved, the gold is not free nor even unlimited, as you must make repayment of some sort.
Even then, it's unreasonable to think that that efreeti will exchange Wishes for anything less than the value of wishes. "Why not, it's no effort for them!" you might cry.
Because the WISH IS VALUABLE TO YOU, and they aren't stupid. Efreeti NEED NOTHING from you. They can capture some idiot and grant them wishes that benefit only the Efreeti, cutting you entirely out of the picture. And they'll do it too, because they're evil.
So the City of Brass probably sells a lot of +2 swords and has all the heaps of gold it will ever need - but being organized and not stupid, the Efreeti don't ruin the gold economy by spending too much of it. They probably have elaborate rules to be followed when granting wishes...did I saw rules? I meant LAWS.
So yeah, summon away with the spell whose first line includes "a dangerous act...*" and force an Efreeti to grant you wishes. They probably have laws about that too...something along the lines of "contact the best Assassin you can find and pay him with three wishes..."
*probably a clue that you're asking for trouble.
Creative Director
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The "Legacy of Fire" adventure path is pretty much based on the idea of what happens when a genie's wish powers are abused, both by mortals AND by the genies themselves. Over the course of those six volumes of Pathfinder, we do a lot of exploring and investigation as to how wishes can impact a world, and not just economically.
The short version: Abusing wishes causes adventure paths to happen.
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[sarcasm] Wait, are you saying that you're screwing your players over and denying them a PURELY LEGAL character concept?!? ;) [/sarcasm]Apparently you're taking a straw man out into the parking lot and beating him. (Never mind that Pun Pun doesn't work, strict RAW. But that's a matter for a different thread.)
Which straw man? Besides, as I already replied to Ravingdork, I was under the impression that there are several versions of Pun-Pun? The most abusable version, apparently, became possible when the Sarrukh stats were pubslihed in 'Serpent Kingdoms'.
This is an interesting post and one that covers a topic I hadn't encountered before due to the preferences of myself and my group.
That said, this whole thread has been a gasoline-based highlighter for illustrating why I hate D&D/PF's dependence upon magic items.
Whether it's in the upcoming GMG or APG or a future installment, I hope somewhere along the way Paizo provides recommendations or alternatives for significantly reducing or outright eliminating the system "need" for magic items and restoring them to the status of "rare, but wondrous".
+ 1
besides I still don't buy into the nice efreet, granting all those wishes even if I would allow it per RAW.
I play and prolly always will play efreet as near diabolical, they even look the part, you bet they have alot of experience twisting wishes for their benefit or just to cause mischief.. they prolly make it a sport, dont think they would be very good losers though.
I have a few comments,
1. Wish economy, just because someone figures out how to abuse the system does not make it canon.
2. Efreet are Evil
3. The DM has every right to control his world the way he sees fit, and to allow or disallow any feats, spells or classes he/she deems fit.
4. Efreet are EVIL!
5. There's no stipulation how rare the items required to create any magic item is, if a player says I want to create a vorpal sword, "here's my gold", the DM can easily say, well to make that weapon you'll need the ichor from a phase spider, mixed with infernal diamonds and powdered dragon claws.
6. EFREET ARE EVIL!!
7. It's your game play it how you to play it.
Did I mention Efreet are evil?
1. Wish economy, just because someone figures out how to abuse the system does not make it canon.
Lawyers are Evil too.
There are a ton of problems with the Chained Efreet money making machine.
The obvious one is that an LE Efreet is definitely going to know the relative value of their wishes and is going to want compensation accordingly. It's after all a high level effect and furthermore not one that they themselves can benefit from. No they are going to want something precious in return for their power.
Planar Ally seems like the spell of choice for getting free wishes but is that truly realistic? Part of the spell description is that your diety chooses an outsider for you(or if you serve a concept an outsider of your alignment gets sent). Cleric of a good god are unlikely to get a Efreet being much more likely to get either a Coatl or perhaps an advanced Hound Archon (LG) or maybe and advanced Lillend or Bralani (CG).
Clerics of CE gods are going to send some sort Demon like a Glabrezu or advanced Succubus (both good at tempting mortals). Asmodeus is likely to send some sort of Devil (Barbed is likely) or Nessian Hellhound. NE clerics are probably going to get some sort of Daemon or maybe an Advanced Nightmare or Night Hag. If you are LN I'd expect for a Inevitable or Formian. Hell you might just get a Huge Elemental instead. So basically expecting to be served hand and foot by a Efreet via a Planar Ally spell seems optimistic.
So basically we need to be a wizard using planar binding which is definitely doing but carries with it a series of costs and benefits. First you'll definitely need to negotiate with the Efreet for services and he's liable to gouge you plus you need to invest time in a diagrammed, dimension locked magic circle otherwise he'll just pop a plane shift to get away. The diagrammed magic circle is pretty useful so that he's not popping scorching rays and wall of flame at you while you negotiate. Unfortunately according to RAW the diagrammed magic circle blocks all spells from the Efreet, including the desired wishes so you'd probably need to drop that effect after you negotiate terms.
Finally if you abuse the Efreet too badly he and some buddies are liable to come back sometime to kick your ass when you aren't ready for it. If you're lucky they might just beat on you a few turns but if your DM is vindictive they could easily just Planar Shift you into a craptacular spot on the Plane of Elemental Fire or other nasty spot. Really vindictive genies might just decide to provide wishes to your enemies ;)
I'm sure an ultra-high level economy does exist in some way or another but it doesn't necessarily have to be a major component of mid-level games unless the DM really wants it to be.
I DM a one-on-one game where the scenarios are tailor-made for the player and the character (whether it be his abilities, equipment and motivations), so I have it easy. But what I did was simply hand over to the character an armor, a shield and a weapon that will grow with him (+1 modifier per 2 levels). That way, he does not have to start plundering treasures, raiding tombs or robbing corpses to get ahead in the game, which really does not suit the type of game we're playing.You could easily handwave other equipments: nearly every player I play with gets a cloak of resistance. Simply give a +1 to all saves every 4 levels. Stat-enhancement items? Simply hand out more stat increases than one point every four level (didn't Conan do that? Or was it Iron Heroes?). Don't like the wands of CLW every group gets? Simply allow faster hp recuperation; though this would depend on the style of your players too - no one likes the 1 encounter a day type of games.
Once you've done all this and removed all mechanics-only magical items, you'll get a shortened list of items that only have interesting effects. I find the items above very boring: their only effect is on the character sheet, not on the game.
The problem is that I'm not sure if I'd buy an rpg designed like this. I like the books I buy to be full of details. Spending money on a book that tells me that I should make the decisions makes no sense (that's why I like very detailed game world such as the FR or the Wilderlands); but as house rules, once you've come to grips with the system, they work very well.
Oh, I've found many a way to handle the situation via house rules and am also a fan of the Conan RPG and it's magic-light mechanics. PF is an extension of the 3.5 rules and D&D in general and that means magic items as loot. I get it and can appreciate why it's in the core rules.
That said, I'd like Paizo-canon alternatives. While my current group is fine with house rules, other groups may not be. Also, I'm not a game designer, so I'd just as soon leave that in Paizo's capable hands.
Is it necessary for PF's success to support variant play styles? Absolutely not. Would it be cool if it did and could it attract additional customers if it did so? I certainly believe so.
In my own case, I had abandoned D&D for many years. One of the main reasons was the proliferation of magic items and the campaign-wrecking impact they could have. It was only after OGL games like Conan & Grim Tales showed me that the d20 engine was viable for playstyles other than D&D that I purchased the 3.5 rules. I don't think I'm so unique that I'm the only gamer whose tastes run towards a more classic swords-n-sorcery rather than the default/core high-magic brand offered by 3.x & PF.
In my own case, I had abandoned D&D for many years. One of the main reasons was the proliferation of magic items and the campaign-wrecking impact they could have.
It's fairly trivial to control magic item proliferation/dependency; don't hand out much money (or items). The Game Master has to take this into account when designing adventures, that's all. Just make sure that players know what they're getting into, and they'll adjust.
Just make sure to adjust spellbook scribing costs - low money campaigns HURT wizards like nobody's business.
That's all I heard.I have a few comments,
<DM Fiat>
Too bad... :(
1. Wish economy, just because someone figures out how to abuse the system does not make it canon.Lawyers are Evil too.
QUITE!
In my own case, I had abandoned D&D for many years. One of the main reasons was the proliferation of magic items and the campaign-wrecking impact they could have.
It's fairly trivial to control magic item proliferation/dependency; don't hand out much money (or items). The Game Master has to take this into account when designing adventures, that's all. Just make sure that players know what they're getting into, and they'll adjust.
Just make sure to adjust spellbook scribing costs - low money campaigns HURT wizards like nobody's business.
Is having high costs of spell scribing really a bad thing though? An inordinate amount of spellcaster power is a function of their spellcasting ability rather than the interaction of build + gear. Yes if a wizard has to spend a hug amount of money on scribing spells they are likely to have less money to spend on cool tools like metamagic rods and intelligence boosters but in effect they are already one of the most potent classes in the game. Making them sweat how to get the money to stock up on new spells can make for an interesting challenge.
The core problem is that the other god-tier class (clerics) don't really have the same tax that wizards have so in effect low resource games upset the balance of power even further by making divine spellcasters the pre-eminent source of power.
At that point in time you either need to nerf the cleric's power some more (hard to do) or you'd need to tax them some way in a manner equivalent to the taxation rate of the wizard scribing new spells. It seems that you could easily incorporate religious tithing as a part of each diety's clergy. If clerics were forced to give up say 10-20% of their earnings to the church then they'd be equally boned by the low resources as the wizards.
You'd probably need to say no unaffiliated clerics (they seem kinda stupid to me anyway) but that would be a decent start to things. I still think that people would point out that low resource games hurt the linear progression classes (fighter, rogue) far more than they hurt the quadratic types (cleric, wizard) so you'd need some way to compensate (maybe more intrinsic bonuses to stats)?
Is having high costs of spell scribing really a bad thing though? An inordinate amount of spellcaster power is a function of their spellcasting ability rather than the interaction of build + gear. Yes if a wizard has to spend a hug amount of money on scribing spells they are likely to have less money to spend on cool tools like metamagic rods and intelligence boosters but in effect they are already one of the most potent classes in the game. Making them sweat how to get the money to stock up on new spells can make for an interesting challenge.
I've lived through it, and it sucked. Since magic items were rare due to cost, I could either have a shiny toy or a few more spells. And as you mention, every other spellcaster had their cake and ate it too. Nothing hurt like when my wizard got access to a new 3rd level spell (friendly higher level wizard)...but scribing it would cost me 1/2 my available gold.
Less of a problem in the latest iteration of the game, at least for low level spells. It's something to keep in mind if you're running a low gold game, though.
I still think that people would point out that low resource games hurt the linear progression classes (fighter, rogue) far more than they hurt the quadratic types (cleric, wizard) so you'd need some way to compensate (maybe more intrinsic bonuses to stats)?
I'm not sure. Without magic items, spellcasters would have better reason to fill up on buff and defense spells, so their personal offense capabilities would likely be reduced. In other words, spellcasters BECOME the magic items of the game. Regardless, wizards and clerics will still need fighters and rogues for the things they do best.