Is it really possible to give yourself a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score long before you were ever meant to obtain the Miracle/Wish spell simply by crafting the appropriate manuals/tomes?
All one would need is a +17 modifier on Spellcraft checks (taking 10 makes things real easy), the Craft Wondrous item feat, and a lot of gold.
A character would be capable of doing this as early as 13th level, if the GM followed the wealth by level guidelines (or 16th-level if they can't spend more than half their wealth).
That is one to four levels earlier than one would get access to the wish spell and be able to do in the typical fashion.
Does this strike you as possibly being problematic? Have the game designers taken this possibility into account when they made the bestiary? I see no reason for a single-stat caster (such as a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer) to not do this as early as is possible.
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I'm pretty sure you can't take 10 on Spellcraft (or at least to craft gear). I' still not to great with Item Creation in PF, but in 3E you had to have a C.L. at least 3 times the bonus desired, so minimume of 15th level for a +5 bonus. That might have changed, and I think that even without the spells, the creater takes a pretty massive penulty to the single Spellcraft check to basically not waste their gold for nothing (or a cursed -5 item. . .).
I'm pretty sure you can't take 10 on Spellcraft (or at least to craft gear). I' still not to great with Item Creation in PF, but in 3E you had to have a C.L. at least 3 times the bonus desired, so minimume of 15th level for a +5 bonus. That might have changed, and I think that even without the spells, the creater takes a pretty massive penulty to the single Spellcraft check to basically not waste their gold for nothing (or a cursed -5 item. . .).
As far as I know, the x3 caster level rule only applies to specific items (such as armor and weapons).
If you have 132,000 gp and 132 days to devote to making the book, the answer appears to be yes. Unless I am missing something.
If you have 132,000 gp and 132 days to devote to making the book, the answer appears to be yes. Unless I am missing something.
Actually, the brunt of the cost comes from the expensive material component of the Wish spell. Subtract 25,000gp per +1 bonus (125,000gp for a +5 tome) to get the base price. The time it takes to make the item is 1 day for every 1,000gp of the base price (or half that if you can beat a higher DC).
EDIT: Hmm...the math doesn't seem to be adding up...
Does anybody know how they came to the numbers in the book?
EDIT 2: It would seem they used the numbers for spell completion items...
3,825gp for Wish #1
2,868.75gp for Wish #2 (25% discount for being 2nd similar ability)
1,912.5gp for Wish #3 (50% discount for being 3rd similar ability)
1,912.5gp for Wish #4 (50% discount for being 4th similar ability)
1,912.5gp for Wish #5 (50% discount for being 5th similar ability)
125,000gp for expensive material component (25,000gp, x5)
EQUALS
137,431.25gp, which is then rounded up to a nice even 137,500gp for simplicity's sake.
(The rest of the gold is probably for the construction of the actual tome itself.)
If that really is how they did it, that means it will only take a week or two to craft the item.
Actually, the brunt of the cost comes from the expensive material component of the Wish spell. Subtract 25,000gp per +1 bonus (125,000gp for a +5 tome) to get the base price. The time it takes to make the item is 1 day for every 1,000gp of the base price (or half that if you can beat a higher DC).
All the rules in the crafting section refer to the base price. I don't see any rules about subtracting from the base price, or how many times you need to cast Wish for a tome.
I do understand the scheme you layed out for fixing the base price mainly on the Wish spell, and assuming it is cast once per plus. It makes sense. And it could also make sense, that if you don't actually cast the Wish spell you don't have to pay the cost. I just don't think that that is how the rules were meant to be interpreted.
I think that you pay the same amount of GP, even if you don't actually cast the spells. And the GP, determines the time it takes to make the item.
Edit: I didn't actually check your numbers, you can try looking here
pfsrd- Estimating Magic Item Value table , but it might not give you the answer
Actually, the brunt of the cost comes from the expensive material component of the Wish spell. Subtract 25,000gp per +1 bonus (125,000gp for a +5 tome) to get the base price. The time it takes to make the item is 1 day for every 1,000gp of the base price (or half that if you can beat a higher DC).All the rules in the crafting section refer to the base price. I don't see any rules about subtracting from the base price, or how many times you need to cast Wish for a tome.
I do understand the scheme you layed out for fixing the base price mainly on the Wish spell, and assuming it is cast once per plus. It makes sense. And it could also make sense, that if you don't actually cast the Wish spell you don't have to pay the cost. I just don't think that that is how the rules were meant to be interpreted.
I think that you pay the same amount of GP, even if you don't actually cast the spells. And the GP, determines the time it takes to make the item.
Edit: I didn't actually check your numbers, you can try looking here, but it might not give you the answer
pfsrd- Estimating Magic Item Value table
See my above post. I've made some edits and found some interesting numbers.
I look at the prices in the PRD and it appears to be 27,500 gp x (stat bonus).
But my point from my last post is that cutting corners doesn't save you any money, unless the rules say that it saves you money. Which as far as I can tell, they don't.
I look at the prices in the PRD and it appears to be 27,500 gp x (stat bonus).
But my point from my last post is that cutting corners doesn't save you any money, unless the rules say that it saves you money. Which as far as I can tell, they don't.
That doesn't seem to match any of the existing formulas... *confused*
...And no, it doesn't save any money, merely time.
EDIT: Hmm...some of the lesser tomes still don't add up.
I look at the prices in the PRD and it appears to be 27,500 gp x (stat bonus).
But my point from my last post is that cutting corners doesn't save you any money, unless the rules say that it saves you money. Which as far as I can tell, they don't.
That doesn't seem to match any of the existing formulas... *confused*
...And no, it doesn't save any money, merely time.
EDIT: Hmm...some of the lesser tomes still don't add up.
You can not create it until your caster level is at least 17th level . So no you can not create one until you could cast wish normally anyway at 17(wiz) or 18(Sor) level.
I look at the prices in the PRD and it appears to be 27,500 gp x (stat bonus).
But my point from my last post is that cutting corners doesn't save you any money, unless the rules say that it saves you money. Which as far as I can tell, they don't.
That doesn't seem to match any of the existing formulas... *confused*
...And no, it doesn't save any money, merely time.
EDIT: Hmm...some of the lesser tomes still don't add up.
You can not create it until your caster level is at least 17th level . So no you can not create one until you could cast wish normally anyway at 17(wiz) or 18(Sor) level.
And why is that pray tell? I see no requirements that say I must be 17th level.
There's several interpretations to the Caster Level on magic items:
Absolutely required to be this level
Pre-requisite that may be ignored for a +5 to the spellcraft DC
Pre-requisite that may be ignored for a +5 to the spellcraft DC per caster level you're short
Purely a measure of how difficult an item is to dispel, and for deciding the base spellcraft check to create the item.
Personally I favor the last interpretation, since there's plenty of cheap magic items that are mainly useful at low level, and have silly CLs listed. Bags of holding or stat increasing items are a good example.
*bump* Hoping to get some additional thoughts on the matter.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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*bump* Hoping to get some additional thoughts on the matter.
I see no reason why it wouldn't work basically as you describe. I woudl still include the material component cots of the wishes as that seems to be the major balancing factor of the books. A truly strict RAW reading might require the creator to spend 25000 per day of creation to represent the spell being cast each day but that seems obviously incorrect.
Remember the creator is going to need a DC32 spellcraft/craft(bookbinding)/etc. check because they can't cast the spell. A truly fanatical wizard could pull off that bonus (+22) by about level 8, but in no way should have the money for anything but the smallest tome.
If you allowed craft(calligraphy) to make written magic items (a reasonable assumption IMO), a geisha(bard achetype from UM) might be able to get to it even earlier. Level 4 or so maybe?
It is slightly more expensive to craft the tome than to just cast the spells, so that is your balancing factor. The huge price of these things is always what kept them in check.