ok, so i love that there are benefits for taking a class the whole 20. but Cleric seems to get no benefit at all.
Barbarian - mighty rage
Bard - deadly performance
Cleric -
Druid - wild shape at will (and op animal companion)
Fighter - Weapon Mastery
Monk - Perfect Self
Paladin - Holy Champion
Ranger - Master Hunter
Rogue - Master Strike
Sorc - Bloodline power (usually huge change)
Wizard - Specialization of spells
point is that the only thing i see in cleric progression is channel energy. the domains help but they outlive their usefullness after lvl 10.
I am currently playing an epic game where we are starting at lvl 1 and by the end will be killing or saving gods. issue is that i don't seem to have anything to look forward to after lvl 10. prestige classes don't mesh well, and there is no benefit to the class other then spell progression. yet everyone else keeps a sort of freshness to them.
if i'm wrong feel free to tell me why, b/c i'm a little dispaired
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How's about keeping your party alive and bringing them back from the dead? I mean let's face it, the cleric's spellcasting ability is that of a wizard, except cleric's aren't limited to their spellbook. Channel energy has made it that much sweeter because they can actually cast non-healing spells now because channel energy will do the job.
Channel and spells keeps you in the class for 19 levels, really if a capstone is all keeping you from a 1 level dip, you would dip capstone or no capstone
And the cleric needs nothing else, he is damned good as is
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Actually, most do not. I think only the 4 elemental domains really do, off the top of my head.
I suggested that back in the day that Clerics become their own Holy Symbols, basically do not require any material components less than 1,000 gp (give or take for your games economy), and maybe can spontaniously cast Domain spells at will (as per Cure/Inflict spells).
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Ah! You are right about that. I haven't played a 20th level pathfinder cleric yet, but I was thinking the domains went up that high and just pulled open the prd real quick to verify and checking the air domain it looked correct. I obviously should have looked at a few more domains before I assumed they all followed suit.
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True. I really don't like the PF domains much. While I do like the elemental domains, I think they are all kind of lacking over all. Especially as they are the only real way of diferentiating the class from itself.
i couldn't agree more
losing the Beta domains was kinda turn of for me for Pathfinder at all.
I love me some Cleric class.
I don't need a capstone power — I never get that far, and it would only be in play for one level. I will take 19 other levels of awesome.
To me, capstones are really "the villain power", and I don't think that level 20 cleric villains need the boost.
That said, a lot of people have been calling for a capstone — I am not opposed to it, it just doesn't seem necessary.
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I don't tink PF Clerics are that great, but I'm glad you like them. Other than that, I think it is partially the point that they are pretty much the only class that gets nothing, but also because they still have so many dead levels. But that is just my opinion, and I don't think it is popular on these forums.
Half tempted to just drop the Sorcerer and make Bloodlines into the new Domains. :) I think they did a great job with the Sorcerer, just not the Cleric or Domains.
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I don't tink PF Clerics are that great, but I'm glad you like them. Other than that, I think it is partially the point that they are pretty much the only class that gets nothing, but also because they still have so many dead levels. But that is just my opinion, and I don't think it is popular on these forums.
Half tempted to just drop the Sorcerer and make Bloodlines into the new Domains. :) I think they did a great job with the Sorcerer, just not the Cleric or Domains.
actually the cleric gets the boot quite often in this forums. If someone likes the cleric more power to them, yet I heard more times than not complains about so called "overpowered" class...
i myself would better work with the Beta Domains, just add a capstone power... i need to do that...
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I actually tend to fall on the Clerics Are A Very Cool Class side of things. Interestingly enough (well, interesting to me, anyway) I never played clerics in the past but tried one for the first time when Pathfing RPG came out and really liked it.
As for Cleric Domains and making them more interesting ... I have an article under consideration right now with Kobold Quarterly that addresses that subject in what I think is a pretty cool way. Hopefully it will be accepted - if it does, I think it will be something many of you will dig!
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I actually tend to fall on the Clerics Are A Very Cool Class side of things. Interestingly enough (well, interesting to me, anyway) I never played clerics in the past but tried one for the first time when Pathfing RPG came out and really liked it.
As for Cleric Domains and making them more interesting ... I have an article under consideration right now with Kobold Quarterly that addresses that subject in what I think is a pretty cool way. Hopefully it will be accepted - if it does, I think it will be something many of you will dig!
Very cool. I kept wondering if treantmonk would be getting to Cleric, (I don't know if they even planned on doing a guide), so that is cool.
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I actually tend to fall on the Clerics Are A Very Cool Class side of things. Interestingly enough (well, interesting to me, anyway) I never played clerics in the past but tried one for the first time when Pathfing RPG came out and really liked it.
As for Cleric Domains and making them more interesting ... I have an article under consideration right now with Kobold Quarterly that addresses that subject in what I think is a pretty cool way. Hopefully it will be accepted - if it does, I think it will be something many of you will dig!
mark hope to be seeing that article sson enough
ok, so i love that there are benefits for taking a class the whole 20. but Cleric seems to get no benefit at all.
Barbarian - mighty rage
Bard - deadly performance
Cleric -
Druid - wild shape at will (and op animal companion)
Fighter - Weapon Mastery
Monk - Perfect Self
Paladin - Holy Champion
Ranger - Master Hunter
Rogue - Master Strike
Sorc - Bloodline power (usually huge change)
Wizard - Specialization of spellspoint is that the only thing i see in cleric progression is channel energy. the domains help but they outlive their usefullness after lvl 10.
I am currently playing an epic game where we are starting at lvl 1 and by the end will be killing or saving gods. issue is that i don't seem to have anything to look forward to after lvl 10. prestige classes don't mesh well, and there is no benefit to the class other then spell progression. yet everyone else keeps a sort of freshness to them.
if i'm wrong feel free to tell me why, b/c i'm a little dispaired
Before we ask the question what is the point going to 20 in cleric (barring elemental domains, I think an energy immunity is a big deal, esp. fire) let's ask, why would you leave the cleric class? If you are playing a core pathfinder game what are you going to get into? Shadowdancer? no. Duelist, no. Theurge, maybe, but that's a different character and you give up a lot for what you gain. The only good option I see is loremaster. To qualify you need w knowledges at 7. There goes your 2 skill points per level unless you have intelligence, which I would hope a loremaster would. You need 4 feats to qualify, so unless you are human or half-elf, every feat from level 1 to 7 goes to qualify for a prestige class than gives you worse HP, worse BAB, and worse saves. In return you get some cool minor abilities, full spellcasting, and a very neat character to roleplay 8 cleric/10 loremaster/9-10 cleric could be a fun/effective role, by no means is it better than an extra 5d6 on your channel energy, better hps, better BAB, and better saves. The reason to stay in cleric is the channel energy and domains. If you don't want those, then theurge or loremaster may fit the bill.
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I don't really see that as helping to convince me that Clerics are better than ever? Not only do they not have a reason to stay Cleric (or not only do they not get anything at 20th level), but well they realy don't have anything better to do instead. Man, I should have played something that wasn't a Cleric. . .
:)
I would think a good capstone power at 20th is to allow spontanous casting of Domain spells at that time. The cleric memorizes one bonus spell from a domain and can spontatously cast the other
ok, so i love that there are benefits for taking a class the whole 20. but Cleric seems to get no benefit at all.
Barbarian - mighty rage
Bard - deadly performance
Cleric -
Druid - wild shape at will (and op animal companion)
Fighter - Weapon Mastery
Monk - Perfect Self
Paladin - Holy Champion
Ranger - Master Hunter
Rogue - Master Strike
Sorc - Bloodline power (usually huge change)
Wizard - Specialization of spellspoint is that the only thing i see in cleric progression is channel energy. the domains help but they outlive their usefullness after lvl 10.
I am currently playing an epic game where we are starting at lvl 1 and by the end will be killing or saving gods. issue is that i don't seem to have anything to look forward to after lvl 10. prestige classes don't mesh well, and there is no benefit to the class other then spell progression. yet everyone else keeps a sort of freshness to them.
if i'm wrong feel free to tell me why, b/c i'm a little dispaired
The benefit of a class is not the capstone. That is just an add-on. The benefit is what the entirety of the class brings to the table.
eh so were talking about cleric 19/ something else 1. You gain channel till 19th, Really is missing something at 20 enough for a 1 level dip?
I like playing Priest (( cleric's )).
But after looking over the Pathfinder Cleric i am left with the feeling of ... what do i do but cast spells. I mean i dont see any feets to go the battle cleric. I dont see any Skill points extra to become the lanugage or one Craft/Profection to flesh out my class.
Right now the only option i see is dipping into the bard class for 2 levels at 5th and 10th to gain some extra class skills and skill points in the knowledge areas. Anymore than that and your burning yourself on casting ability or spell access in the cleric area.
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So i am left with taking SpellCraft every level + Linguasites every level.
Using up all my Character level advancement feets learning "Magic Craft feats" .... i wonder if my DM will force me to have the mondain-CRAFT feet in building all of these....
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I still love the cleric as a class ( because i like helping others ), but i wish i had more skill points to better flush out what they do when there not just on ther knees praying or casting.
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I still love the cleric as a class ( because i like helping others ), but i wish i had more skill points to better flush out what they do when there not just on ther knees praying or casting.
You could always, you know, spend the points in cross class skills?
"oh no, I do not get the +3 class skill bonus because this totally awesome skill is not on my list, therefore it is worthless! woe is me! cleric skills suck."
I'm sorry, but the classes have to be balanced against each other, and a part of that is controlling class skill lists. Classes that are not focused on skills get a small list, and do not have access to every possible useful skill.
Unless, and this just occurred to me, you are not aware of how skill points work with pathfinder, and assumed that you had to spend two points for every rank of a non-class skill? Because that's not how it works now. If this is the case, I apologize for my snark.
Battle Cleric: take a level in fighter for the weapons and armor proficiencies and for the combat feat. Make strength highest, wisdom second highest, con third. Use power attack, sunder, toughness, etc - standard melee fighter feats. Revel in the glory of Divine Power.
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I still love the cleric as a class ( because i like helping others ), but i wish i had more skill points to better flush out what they do when there not just on ther knees praying or casting.You could always, you know, spend the points in cross class skills?
"oh no, I do not get the +3 class skill bonus because this totally awesome skill is not on my list, therefore it is worthless! woe is me! cleric skills suck."
you sound as if the cleric had more than 2 skill points per level :P
basically you make fun of him because he asked the cleric had a few more skill points to create a more complete character... (its not gona happen, i have been already shut up about that issue :P)
i know the reason is "class balance" vs character development, characters should be able to bring more to the table than just what they could do in the combat encounter...
its illogic that the most prepared classes are apparently the most stupid... wizards are learned, clerics are formally trained... yet this is not shown in skills.
in the other side the barbarian which usually is a savage without any training gets the double of the skill points... not to talk about teh rogue, mostly training himself in the streets he gets 4 times the skills of this classes...
i know is gamist but in logic is ridicule.
as ridicule as having the fighting getting bored during social encounters because his skill points are to get what he needs to survive and do his job, but make him useless outside that... which is absurd considering that still the generals, at least the good ones who go up in the ranks, are fighters...
the sorcerer is as savage and baseas the barbarian, yet they get the same skill points than the wizard
i know what they would say... the training goes into be able to use spells... as if you could use that day long... spells are rather limited now more in pathfinder... against the fighter who can keep swinging his sword all day or the rogue using skill points all daylong.
this kind of things are the ones that make common the 15-minutes day... yeah some of that is solved using scrolls and channeling (keep healing people), yet... each scoll to keep useful a bit longer is usually money that leaves the spellcasting clas..
but again... the forum is full of magic-haters AND cleric-haters so I understand this points feel moot to them.
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Battle Cleric: take a level in fighter for the weapons and armor proficiencies and for the combat feat. Make strength highest, wisdom second highest, con third. Use power attack, sunder, toughness, etc - standard melee fighter feats. Revel in the glory of Divine Power.
yeah the "overwhelmingly power" Divine Power :P
reduced with water from something decent that gave the combat cleric a good survivality during 1 combat into barely useful for a few rounds... IF you are able to cast it at all...
I agree 2 skill points such for every single class that has em, but cleric is not the only class that has to deal with 2 skill point. I fought for em to be bumped to 4 I really did.
The cleric is a boatload of awesome as is. I am still not seeing the issue, you gained more stuff then you had in 3.5, and with channel you may even get to use some spells besides healing now
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While it is true that you can take a lot of cross class skills, and it does work a heck of a lot better in PF, the Cleric probably more than any other class needs almost all good stats, and that generally leaves Int as the lowest. So skills suffer and there are a few that (in general), Cleric must have, (Know. Religion <& Arcana>, Spellcraft, Heal, Diplomacy, and now Sense Motive <at least for me>), which just doesn't leave room for the cross class skills. Your games might be different, but that's my experience so far.
yeah the "overwhelmingly power" Divine Power :P
reduced with water from something decent that gave the combat cleric a good survivality during 1 combat into barely useful for a few rounds... IF you are able to cast it at all...
Eh that nerfed what most players thought of as a broken spell and spell combo. Still not seeing the issue here.
You want to be a melee class, ya need to play one.You can still pull off combat cleric , you just no longer over shadow classes that are made to do just that
While it is true that you can take a lot of cross class skills, and it does work a heck of a lot better in PF, the Cleric probably more than any other class needs almost all good stats, and that generally leaves Int as the lowest. So skills suffer and there are a few that (in general), Cleric must have, (Know. Religion <& Arcana>, Spellcraft, Heal, Diplomacy, and now Sense Motive <at least for me>), which just doesn't leave room for the cross class skills. Your games might be different, but that's my experience so far.
I house rule em 4, anything less then 4 really hurts not only that character but the party as a whole, forcing folks with alot of skills to burn em on something they may not want, just to have it in the group.
Lack of skill points is not just a cleric issue, but yeah it should have been fixed, and oh did I try. All I got from anyone was "INT is not a dumb stat".
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Honestly, it hasn't come up enough for me to judge if it is to much in their case. On one hand, I can understand them being skillful characters (particularly Appraise, Know. all, Spellcraft, and maybe Use Magic Device tend to take care of their skills), but I can see it becoming a bit broken too, in the wrong hands, (taking skills meant for other classes and outdoing them like most Rogue skills).
Me too, but that's not the norm. I house rule that the only skill progressions are 4+, 6+, and 8+ Int, so nearly every class that had 2+Int now gets 4+, (like the Barbarians HP, there could be unique exceptions).
That is my houserule, everyone that had 2 now has 4. I found it gives much more robust character, without forcing folks to dip just for points
As for the wizard, really it has not been an issue, he normally is roughly on pare with the rogue, but rogue still has more most time. As the wizard tends to burn his on knowledge skills and the like I have never found it to be an issue. High Int pays after all. I have seen rogues with INT of 18 or so before as well
I have ran with this house rule since 2000 and really have never had an issue with it. What it does do is take the burden of "having" to take skills off the rogue, as everyone now has skill to not only build the character as they saw it, but may have extra to take skills they think the party might need.
In my experience it has lead to well rounded party
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I still love the cleric as a class ( because i like helping others ), but i wish i had more skill points to better flush out what they do when there not just on ther knees praying or casting.You could always, you know, spend the points in cross class skills?
"oh no, I do not get the +3 class skill bonus because this totally awesome skill is not on my list, therefore it is worthless! woe is me! cleric skills suck."
you sound as if the cleric had more than 2 skill points per level :P
basically you make fun of him because he asked the cleric had a few more skill points to create a more complete character... (its not gona happen, i have been already shut up about that issue :P)
He's spending one of his 2 (+ int + human + favored class) skill points in Linguistics. Instead of, say, Perception.
So yes, I feel justified in poking a little fun, assuming he's aware of how class and cross-class skills work now.
And I agree that there are problems in the skill system. Pathfinder fixed the skill point problem, and cleaned up the skill choices somewhat, but things like craft and sail and knowledge should not be in the same... for lack of a better word, "Tier", as things like perception and disable device and acrobatics.
And, I sorry, but where's the spellcaster hate, exactly? Wizards are insanely awesome. Druids, Sorcerers, and Clerics are also awesome. They don't need help to be more awesome. The other classes need help in order to become awesome like these guys already are. I fail to see how that is spellcaster hate.
Unless you are talking exclusively about levels 1-5, then I agree that spellcasters are a little boned.
I suppose 4+ minimum could be ok, just adding 2 skills per level to any class.
4+,6+,8+,10+, should be enough skills for anyone.. it does diminish humans and half-elves a bit though.
I suppose 4+ minimum could be ok, just adding 2 skills per level to any class.
4+,6+,8+,10+, should be enough skills for anyone.. it does diminish humans and half-elves a bit though.
I disliked just adding 2 to everyone as why the hell should a druid and a barbarian gain more then a cleric and a fighter? Of the 4 cleric and fighter tend to be better educated anyhow
So I went with all 2's are now 4 and have 4/6/8
education isn't everything, lots of uncivilized people are arguably more skilled then city people. the classes with more skillpoints tend to have a more extensive skill list as part of their class.
yep and most would be commoners not pc classes, survival covers living off the land . The point was of the 4 classes are pretty much the same thing save civilized/uncivilized versions I have always found it silly that 2 had 4 while the others had 2 for no reason. Look at the wizard /sorcerer they have the same amount yet the druid gains 4 while the cleric is stuck with 2
The wizard does not have a problem because Intelligence is there primary stat and as such they will almost certanly have Bonuse skill points per level.
As for the Cleric i now see that i had the mistaken belief that the Primary States should be:
1) Wisdom for spells
2) Charima for Channeling QT and to overcome undead resistance.
3) Stenght for to hit/damage and encummberance vs armor
4) Intelligence for skill points.
With the Ability point system, and barring taking an elf. Yes i was thinking that i would have a INT of 10 and no bonus skill points.
I was mistaken and now see that i should be building up my cleric differenctly.
1) Wisdom for spells.
2) Intelligence for skill points.
3) Streght for to hit/damage and encummberance vs armor
4) Constitution for HP/Fort save or Dexerity for AC/Ref Save.
Will just go back to using Charisma as my dump stat of 10 and Channeeling as a 3 x per day Out of combat heal. I will warn my the partys fighter that if we run into undead, the blur in the background is me ""RUNNING"" the other dirrection... hehe. Undead scare the bloody hell out of me with there ability to eat your SOUL and turn you into one of them.
There is no 'right' way to build a cleric, well arguably there is a 'wrong' way to build a cleric though hehe.
you do not really need charisma or int or str depending on build, a cleric will benefit more than a wizard from having multiple high scores, but that won't really do it for a cleric ina point buy system I suppose.
I like playing Priest (( cleric's )).
But after looking over the Pathfinder Cleric i am left with the feeling of ... what do i do but cast spells. I mean i dont see any feets to go the battle cleric. I dont see any Skill points extra to become the lanugage or one Craft/Profection to flesh out my class.
Right now the only option i see is dipping into the bard class for 2 levels at 5th and 10th to gain some extra class skills and skill points in the knowledge areas. Anymore than that and your burning yourself on casting ability or spell access in the cleric area.
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So i am left with taking SpellCraft every level + Linguasites every level.
Using up all my Character level advancement feets learning "Magic Craft feats" .... i wonder if my DM will force me to have the mondain-CRAFT feet in building all of these....
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I still love the cleric as a class ( because i like helping others ), but i wish i had more skill points to better flush out what they do when there not just on ther knees praying or casting.
Battle cleric
Human Neutral Chaotic1 Cleric of Gorum
Channel negative energy
Feats: 1) Weapon Focus: Greatsword (Human) Power attack
Spells Divine Favor and.. Divine favor
There you go. As potent a battle cleric you need at level 1.
You can later switch for Divine Power and Righteous Might
If you have access to outside material you can eventually miracle yourself a Giant Size spell.
You don't see any feats to go to the battle cleric? Feats go to any character it has nothing to do with the cleric. The cleric is a great class and worth taking 20 levels in. If you don't want to that's fine, but there is good incentive to stay in just cleric.
Both Power Attack (I think) and Weapon Focus now require a BaB of +1, so no go.
Ok. Let's get crazy here.
human combat casting1 toughness
3 Power attack
5 Weapon focus Greatsword
7 you get divine power and win.
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Both Power Attack (I think) and Weapon Focus now require a BaB of +1, so no go.Ok. Let's get crazy here.
human combat casting
1 toughness
3 Power attack
5 Weapon focus Greatsword
7 you get divine power and win.
For me at least, the probelm here is that by what 7th level, you can do nothing that any other character can't do (none of those feats actually grant any new options except Power Attack in a very limited sense). 3/4 of what you have can be gotten by simple taking 1 level of Fighter (and gets you even more (heavy armor, Tower shield)), and Divine Power isn't that great any more.
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Fighters fight better than Clerics.
Fighters fight better than Barbarians, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards.
Fighters fight better than everybody. That's why they are called Fighters.
Why is this news?
How is saying "Clerics can't match a Fighter's damage" even remotely relevant? NO CAN MATCH A FIGHTERS ABILITY TO FIGHT. It's like saying "the sun is hotter than my fire, so my fire is worthless". It's a pointless non-comparison - of course the Fighter does better.
A Cleric will never be able to match the damage that a Fighter can put out, but that's made up for with buff/debuff spells that help the entire party, summoning and control, damage spells, and amazing healing utility.
If you want to play a character that completely owns in melee and does more damage than anyone else, play a Fighter - it's all they can do. All the other classes get improved flexibility and party support, but do less damage.
That said, as others have shown, Clerics can put out respectable damage, which is all they need to do. A Battle Cleric compares well to a Barbarian, a Druid (outside of their small "uber" window), or a Rogue.
I do not understand - if comparable damage is not "enough", what is?
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So someone help me out here, because I dont think im reading this thread right. The OP is offering that the lack of a capstone ability for a cleric somehow diminishes its value? And along the course of this discussion, its veered out to state that a cleric has nothing to do in a party besides cast spells, as it cant fight as good as the other melee classes, and doesnt have the skill points of a rogue? If im reading this wrong, please, correct me. Because this is what I'm seeing in here. Entertaining to say the least.