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Been reading some of the good stuff on the Civil War thread and got to thinking.
Is it possible that the U.S. will have a second civil war?
Nah, throw that one out for a second. Let's say the 2nd American Civil war is a certainty.
If you were going to overthrow our government, what would you change radically?
Take into account this nightmare situation. The debt of the U.S. is unrecoverable and the government is heading for a complete collapse. Corporations hold the true power in the country and the politicians are previous employees of those corporations. Oil is no longer able to meet demand and dwindling, so the price is about 15 dollar a gallon. All goods and services have risen in price as to force a major portion of the U.S. into poverty. Commuting to work has become unfeasible and all the bedroom communities are unable to keep their cheap housing by shear expense of getting to work.
Given these factors, anger and resentment has turned many to the idea of a Civil War to break away from the U.S. or possibly overthrow it.
The plus side is the U.S. government owes the debt and a new government wouldn't honor those debts.
What would you call your new country in the U.S.?
What would you put first when it came to your new government?
How would you sell this idea to those that will have to die for it?
Would your government be a socialist type state?
Would you see yourself as a worthy dictator?
I think the 2nd American civil war will be between the descendants of Mexican immigrants and the rest of America. It will really boil down to a war between Mexico and the USA, but it will be fought on our soil.
Wasn't there a small bit movie about that? It was over immigration or some such
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I think the 2nd American civil war will be between the descendants of Mexican immigrants and the rest of America. It will really boil down to a war between Mexico and the USA, but it will be fought on our soil.
Actually, I think if a second American Civil War were to occur, it would erupt due to the ever increasing divergence between the upper and middle/lower classes.
As to the original question, it's tricky to say what I would adjust. Coming out of a conflict such as that, I would imagine ensuring the food and medical infrastructures were functioning would be a priority concern, as would the power grid and water systems. All of these would need to be under the auspices of the government to ensure (1)an organized approach to the rebuilding of these aspects, (2)removal of the possibility of war profiteering at the expense of the people and (3)rebuilding of the people's faith in a government to be able to work in their best interest.
Of course, I'm just spit-balling here. It could be that the country would be in far worse shape and in need of much more before one could reach this point as well.
The new name? No clue.
Or the political landscape could be so transformed that the concept of a 'nation state' could be ashcanned in favor of smaller polities.
Nanoscale engineering could do the trick (No need to transport or buy goods, if nanite could make whatever you require.)
You guys could join Canada.
Eh?
If we thought our taxes and gas prices were high, we'd be screaming vile invectives when faced with Canada's equivalent. And some sort of spiel that we need to hold onto our capitalism than to sell to a quasi-socialistic brand of ...
... speaking from a gun totin' right-wing militant from Montana's pov, of course. :P
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Or the political landscape could be so transformed that the concept of a 'nation state' could be ashcanned in favor of smaller polities.
Nanoscale engineering could do the trick (No need to transport or buy goods, if nanite could make whatever you require.)
Indeed. One of my favorite "The US collapses" type of scenarios was spelled out in Crimson Skies. The failure of Prohibition to be made into a Constitutional amendment began the division between "wet" and "dry" states. The influenza pandemic resulted in the closing of borders between states. The market crash of 1929 led to the states seceding from the Union, beginning with Texas, followed by New York and then all the others, resulting in a dozen or so different nations in what was once the US.
EDIT: Sorry Kruelaid, Canada fell apart in this scenario as well. ;)
what about land masses west of the sierra nevadas falling into the ocean?
I see it as a possible breakdown of the Federal government itself, much like the dissolution of the Soviet Union, which was mired by it's own internal problems (namely their economy). But the States themselves could be reorganized into like-minded factions, bound by common interests and/or sharing of resources and infrastructure. Whether or not each faction would wage an overall conflict against each other would remain to be seen.
1. Something familiar and yet representative of the nation's ideals and/or geographical location. Perhaps the Liberated Pacific States of America, or the Pacific Allied States of America.
2. Based on an overall dissolution of the Federal government, rather than a civil war, the first item to tackle would be the new nation's economic and industrial infrastructure. A standard of value would be placed on currency again, based either on precious metals (gold, platinum, etc.) or natural resources. Development and construction of clean alternative energy production/power plants would begin, and excess power would be sold and delivered to nearby nations (Canada, Mexico, other factions). A "New Deal" of sorts would temporarily hire citizens for paid government work to build this up, and put the necessarily capital for these individuals to start up their own businesses or work for said businesses. The next step would be to transition to a libertarian-style economic system and to establish fair and balanced with foreign countries, as well as establish a small, but well-trained and technologically-superior defense force.
3. For a libertarian-based nation, liberty and government non-interference are often enough. But presenting the promise of people to actually be able to control their own future (and indeed enabling it to happen) would be worth dying for.
4. I don't think full-fledged socialism would be the answer. You still have the problem of tackling the sheer level of expense that is incrued to maintain a socialist society (government health care, government-run industry, etc.). But limited socialism has good benefits as well, at least to rebuild/modernize a nation's infrastructure. At first, I would utilize something similiar to the New Deal to rebuild the nation's infrastructure in the form of energy production and industrial modernization.
Then, I would move the system towards a libertarian-style economy, where the only economic principles enforced by the government at large would be to enforce standards of safety, free enterprise, and competition. Corporate buy-outs/mergers would be completely prohibited, as would monopolys. Any kind of Federal power would be limited in scope to foreign relations, national defense, resource management/environmental protections, and enforcement of libertarian principles. States would be self-governing, with only a judicial and executive branch for the Federal government.
5. Not at all. I generally prefer to avoid the spotlight, though I would probably serve in the military/defense force of my home state, or maybe become an ambassador to a friendly nation.
If we thought our taxes and gas prices were high, we'd be screaming vile invectives when faced with Canada's equivalent. And some sort of spiel that we need to hold onto our capitalism than to sell to a quasi-socialistic brand of ...
... speaking from a gun totin' right-wing militant from Montana's pov, of course. :P
Ahhh, Montana. The land of... roads.
EDIT: Sorry Kruelaid, Canada fell apart in this scenario as well. ;)
DAMMIT!
I, personally, would love to see the Constitution rewritten with the same Lockean liberalism but up-to-date with the current state of affairs. All references to slaves removed, many/most of the current amendments written into the corpus. Clear restrictions/delineations of corporate activity, personal freedoms, institutional freedoms, and government responsibility toward its citizens. Acknowledgment of the impact modern imperialist capitalism and technology has on everyone's lives.
Of course, being an extreme leftist (at least from a current US political point of view) and rational (and honest), I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :)
Zo
I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :)
Well, we do have a lot more guns. ;)
Well, we do have a lot of guns. ;)I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :)
I'm so happy.
When I moved to Virginia I didn't take everything with me. but, now that I am visiting in Kentucky I am going to make a point to have something sent too me in the mail: my Israeli Arms manufactured M-1 carbine with a 8 shot clip, two 15 shot clips, and a 30 shot clip! Wahoo! That 30 shot clip is a lot of fun to unload in a few seconds!
In answer to the original questions:
1. The Free Confederation of States
2. Personal rights; and the right of the individual state.
3. Remind them of the alternative - i.e. socialism and the loss of personal rights and liberties.
4. Hades no! (and please bite yer tongue!)
5. No. I would be as brutal as any dictator, of course.
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Of course, being an extreme leftist (at least from a current US political point of view) and rational (and honest), I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :) Zo
It could be, but no one really expects that long haired hippy type to be a damn good shot. Surprise could yet be on our side. ;)
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Of course, being an extreme leftist (at least from a current US political point of view) and rational (and honest), I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :)Zo
Well DigMarx, the second amendment still exists at this point. Feel free to head down to your Favorite Local Gunstore, pass your NICS background check and pick out something that catches your eye. Then head to the local gunrange and practice, practice, practice. And learn how to clean it and take care of it.
Then subscribe to a gun magazine.
Heh, check out some on line gun forums.
Attend a pro gun rally, write some letters to the
editor or your congresman/woman........
Purty sooon yer gonnnnaa be just like ussss.....
BTW, learn how to hunt so you can feed your family when the devolution of the federal government starts.
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BTW, learn how to hunt so you can feed your family when the devolution of the federal government starts.Use a bow, make it sporting. ;)
Besides, with a bow you can make your ammo when the entire infrastructure shuts down. Nothing like making pressure flake arrowheads.
Only if you have ranks in Craft: bowmaking/fletcher
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The plus side is the U.S. government owes the debt and a new government wouldn't honor those debts.
But other entities would be loathe to extend any new credit to the new government...
What would you call your new country in the U.S.?
I'd call it the United States of America, because I like the name. Just because a new government takes over doesn't mean you HAVE to rename the country.
What would you put first when it came to your new government?
ummmm keeping someone else from overthrowing MY government!
How would you sell this idea to those that will have to die for it?
Religion is a great tool >;-)
Would your government be a socialist type state?
I would break up central control and return more power to the states, reserving only authority for foreign affairs.
Would you see yourself as a worthy dictator?
Hell, yes! Everyone should follow my benevolent dictatorship (or else I will imprison or kill you)
California has something like the 6th largest economy in the world. It could effectively tell the rest of the US to go Jump.
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California has something like the 6th largest economy in the world. It could effectively tell the rest of the US to go Jump.
I think we're down to 10 or 11 - damn recession! And I still can't afford a house!
As far as causes for the split, I'd lean more toward a fracture between the religious right (Judeo-Christian-maybe-even-Islamic fundamentalism) and the (Godless) liberal left. That's what all the current culture wars really seem to be about anyway, more than anything ethnic or class-based. The South and Midwest drop out and the Coasts form their own nations. East Coast probably retains the name USA, while the West Coast becomes the Republic of the Pacific.
Anybody read comic books? Didn't Marvel to a Civil War II where Iron Man ended up killing Captain America?
What would you call your new country in the U.S.?
I would make Hawaii, California, and Washington states of Australia.
What would you put first when it came to your new government?
Rugby and Cricket would be would replace American football and Baseball.
How would you sell this idea to those that will have to die for it?
Nobody would die as becoming part of the Commonwealth of Australia is probably the best thing in all the world (except maybe swimming naked in whipped cream with Morena Baccarin).
Would your government be a socialist type state?
It would be a Federal Constitutional Monarchy, as a bonus you get Elizabeth the II Queen of England & the British Commonwealth as head of state.
Would you see yourself as a worthy dictator?
I would happily take on a role as Governor General its mostly ceremonial. I am happy with our centre left Labour government so I wouldn't change it.
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I, personally, would love to see the Constitution rewritten with the same Lockean liberalism but up-to-date with the current state of affairs. All references to slaves removed, many/most of the current amendments written into the corpus. Clear restrictions/delineations of corporate activity, personal freedoms, institutional freedoms, and government responsibility toward its citizens. Acknowledgment of the impact modern imperialist capitalism and technology has on everyone's lives.
Of course, being an extreme leftist (at least from a current US political point of view) and rational (and honest), I have to admit if it came to an armed conflict the right wing would totally kick our asses :)
Zo
Serious question: As an extreme Leftist, what about Locke attracts you? He would have been completely put off my Marxist philosophy. Honest question, I'm interested in your POV here. :)
This coming from an extreme fan of Locke, Mises, Friedman, etc...
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California has something like the 6th largest economy in the world. It could effectively tell the rest of the US to go Jump.
Texas is right there as well, and solvent atm. Plus, we have the advantage of being the proud home of something like 75% of the refining capacity of the U.S., having the second largest port, the Space Center, and currently being the hub of most of the trade from South and Central America. More good from Mexico travel through Laredo than San Diego as well. We also put the largest percentage of people in the military of any state.
Texas is well positioned in a worst case scenario.
Serious question: As an extreme Leftist, what about Locke attracts you? He would have been completely put off my Marxist philosophy. Honest question, I'm interested in your POV here. :)
This coming from an extreme fan of Locke, Mises, Friedman, etc...
Well, I think one has to look at the time-line of philosophical development before making statements like that. I also think it's important to distinguish between what Marx thought and what his interpreters claim he thought.
One of the problems, as I see it, is that many Americans conflate socialism, communism, Communism, Marxism-Leninism, and Stalinism (i.e. single-state socialism devolving into a degenerate worker's state as identified by Trotsky), essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think most people can agree that stagnating in this corporate-imperialist pseudo free-market era is doing more harm than good, regardless of what each of us sees as being the solution to the problem.
One of Locke's significant contributions to modern political thought is found in his exposition of the notion of the social contract, which is something that I as a Marxist can find common cause with, as long as it is a contract between equals and not the exploitation of the weak by the strong. More later...
Zo
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Serious question: As an extreme Leftist, what about Locke attracts you? He would have been completely put off my Marxist philosophy. Honest question, I'm interested in your POV here. :)
This coming from an extreme fan of Locke, Mises, Friedman, etc...
Well, I think one has to look at the time-line of philosophical development before making statements like that. I also think it's important to distinguish between what Marx thought and what his interpreters claim he thought.
One of the problems, as I see it, is that many Americans conflate socialism, communism, Communism, Marxism-Leninism, and Stalinism (i.e. single-state socialism devolving into a degenerate worker's state as identified by Trotsky), essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think most people can agree that stagnating in this corporate-imperialist pseudo free-market era is doing more harm than good, regardless of what each of us sees as being the solution to the problem.
One of Locke's significant contributions to modern political thought is found in his exposition of the notion of the social contract, which is something that I as a Marxist can find common cause with, as long as it is a contract between equals and not the exploitation of the weak by the strong. More later...
Zo
I see where you're coming from; however, I think you give Marx too much credit. I've read Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto, and found both sophomoric and overly simplistic. The reason the philosophy did devolve into Trotskyism (and even worse, Staslinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc) is that the philosophy itself is greatly flawed.
I think, perhaps, the "modern" politician who best exemplifies enforcing the social contract was Teddy Roosevelt. His presidency was the last that actually, honestly and vehemently was about the best interest of liberty and the best interest of the American people, imo.
The problem with business isn't business, it's government cronyism. Exploitation can only happen if the government either sits idly by or, as is the case in modern politics, actively abets business in screwing people.
The fallacy modern "liberals" (quotes because modern politics saddled with that label have little in common with Classical Liberalism) fall into is thinking the Democratic party cares about people. The biggest offenders over the last few years, the institutions that created our current situation (Wall Street, Mortgage institutions, large banks) give an obscene percentage of their political money to the Donkey party. I would rather the American voters who identify with the Left would vote Green. I don't agree with the Green Party's politics, but at least I know they aren't owned lock, stock and barrel by Wall Street and actually honestly believe in what they preach.
The fallacy modern "conservatives" fall into is thinking the Republican party has anything to do with the party Teddy Roosevelt headed or the one that produced Goldwater and Reagan. The modern Republican party is too beholden to the Christian Right and the NeoCons and has lost its right to fly the flag of Classical Liberalism.
Government has lost sight of its purpose, and that's to ensure Americans can go about their business knowing said business will be conducted fairly and on a level playing field, with only an individual's drive, ambition and willingness to work (and, to be honest, a little luck) separating the successful from the unsuccessful.
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Government has lost sight of its purpose, and that's to ensure Americans can go about their business knowing said business will be conducted fairly and on a level playing field, with only an individual's drive, ambition and willingness to work (and, to be honest, a little luck) separating the successful from the unsuccessful.
I am actually fairly disgusted with our government. I really feel that it has been bought and paid for (by you know who). They play the fiddle. They do a gig. They give nice speeches. In the end, they are making decisions that either keep them in power or are doing favors that will make them more powerful. They see no cost in their actions and in the end, know that their personal situation will keep them well above the horror they are sewing.
One day we will wonder how we strayed so far from common sense.
My biggest concerns which are the basics.
Clean drinkable water (Water Shortage)
Food Supplies (Famine)
Peak Oil (Energy Crisis)
Unsustainable Consumption (Decline in Quality of Life)
Climate Change (Catastrophic Disasters)
I think all of these things could be avoided, but as long as there is money before a person's conscience than I believe everything will proceed as planned for the corporations.
Capitalism worked well throughout its existence, but now the good it was doing has run out. There needs to be a new system to handle overpopulation and insane consumption. The individualism that this country preaches falls right into corporate profits. Everyone has to have the same thing because no one shares. So, we all have tons of stuff because we are all cocooned in our own world. Every house has a set of things that is only used a couple times a year or a decade. Absolutely silly. Totally inefficient. I am sure bookstores would love to see all libraries die out so we all have to own a copy of this or that.
I think what happened in New Orleans is directly related to our government's inability to look at the basic problems and then proceed to solve them.
I might also add that lawyers are tangling everything up in so much legal tape that the cost of getting a simple cup of coffee in the rain is too costly.
Did you know you could be sued if you are in a McDonalds and say, "This hamburger made me sick".
[offtopic]Has anyones else ever noticed that almost every "State seceding from the Union" scenario, the first state to go is Texas?[/offtopic]
It is the only state that was a recognized country after all.
[offtopic]Has anyones else ever noticed that almost every "State seceding from the Union" scenario, the first state to go is Texas?[/offtopic]It is the only state that was a recognized country after all.
Umm, don't forget Hawaii. It was a kingdom once ...
But, yeah, if anyone were to seceed in modern times my money's on Tejas. And since they have most of America's big military bases we'd be royally screwed.
I think the 2nd American civil war will be between the descendants of Mexican immigrants and the rest of America. It will really boil down to a war between Mexico and the USA, but it will be fought on our soil.Actually, I think if a second American Civil War were to occur, it would erupt due to the ever increasing divergence between the upper and middle/lower classes.
I was thinking about this, in a few generations the members of the lower class will be the descendants of illegal aliens. After a few generations, they may look around and say, "Hey, we are not integrated in American society, we culturally identify with Mexico not the U.S., and there is this ever increasing divergence between us and the upper classes. Let's Kill 'em All!"
The Mexican government (or drug lords) will seize this opportunity, if not foster it, and send troops across the borders. And, the drunk guy at the table will raise his head and slur, "I'm getting on the train."
And, the drunk guy at the table will raise his head and slur, "I'm getting on the train."
You owe me a soda wizard. :D Heathy does too, for starting all this.
I would be too conservative for the so call conservatives and way too liberal for most of the liberals.
Not quite as funny, but got a good snerk.
I see where you're coming from; however, I think you give Marx too much credit. I've read Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto, and found both sophomoric and overly simplistic. The reason the philosophy did devolve into Trotskyism (and even worse, Staslinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc) is that the philosophy itself is greatly flawed.
I believe you've created a straw man and are mercilessly flogging it with a +5 Stick of Prior Assumptions :) Regardless of one's point of view on Marx/Engles' writing, the notions of historical materialism and the inevitable progression of the modes of production stand strong. Marx was no prophet, it's silly to assume that he could have foreseen the path capitalism took after his death (however, interestingly, he wasn't far off pre-WWII).
Are there really people out there that believe capitalism (or what we have now, which is corporate imperialism) is the final stage of human social evolution? People who think "yeah, we've come as far as we're going to, let's just stop here."? Fukuyama thought so, but as far as I'm concerned he's been debunked along with the rest of the neo-cons. Converted, actually. Voted for Obama. Ouch.
Zo
EDIT: LOL look at the censoring of Francis F U K U Yama's last name!
[offtopic]Has anyones else ever noticed that almost every "State seceding from the Union" scenario, the first state to go is Texas?[/offtopic]It is the only state that was a recognized country after all.
The state constitution of Texas, as I understand it, retains the right of secession, signed off by Uncle Sam back when.
[offtopic]Has anyones else ever noticed that almost every "State seceding from the Union" scenario, the first state to go is Texas?[/offtopic]It is the only state that was a recognized country after all.The state constitution of Texas, as I understand it, retains the right of secession, signed off by Uncle Sam back when.
I believe they also have an interesting 'breakup' clause that allows them to split into five separate states. The reasoning behind this was to give Texans 10 Senators if they felt underrepresented in the Senate. Of course, it is a big assumption that five sets of Texan Senators would automatically vote in lockstep .. :P
I believe they also have an interesting 'breakup' clause that allows them to split into five separate states. The reasoning behind this was to give Texans 10 Senators if they felt underrepresented in the Senate. Of course, it is a big assumption that five sets of Texan Senators would automatically vote in lockstep .. :P[offtopic]Has anyones else ever noticed that almost every "State seceding from the Union" scenario, the first state to go is Texas?[/offtopic]It is the only state that was a recognized country after all.The state constitution of Texas, as I understand it, retains the right of secession, signed off by Uncle Sam back when.
Well, I suppose if they "agree to disagree" it would result in the same end ...
Now five mini-Texas' ... that ... would be weird.
Now five mini-Texas' ... that ... would be weird.
Yeah, but considering it is the size of France, they could pull it off, and every state would still be fairly largish.
Now five mini-Texas' ... that ... would be weird.Yeah, but considering it is the size of France, they could pull it off, and every state would still be fairly largish.
So, what would happen to the Rangers?
So, what would happen to the Rangers?Now five mini-Texas' ... that ... would be weird.Yeah, but considering it is the size of France, they could pull it off, and every state would still be fairly largish.
LOL, I imagine there would be five different outfits claiming the 'true' mantle of the Rangers. Just as I believe if Texas was ever foolish enough to actually excercise that clause they would find out that just because they were all once one state that they wouldn't stay monolithic in voting for long. Their interests would soon start to diverge.
Heck, most Texans I've talked to on these boards don't even consider El Paso (the only place in TX I ever lived in) as 'true' Texas.
So, what would happen to the Rangers?Now five mini-Texas' ... that ... would be weird.Yeah, but considering it is the size of France, they could pull it off, and every state would still be fairly largish.LOL, I imagine there would be five different outfits claiming the 'true' mantle of the Rangers. Just as I believe if Texas was ever foolish enough to actually excercise that clause they would find out that just because they were all once one state that they wouldn't stay monolithic in voting for long. Their interests would soon start to diverge.
Heck, most Texans I've talked to on these boards don't even consider El Paso (the only place in TX I ever lived in) as 'true' Texas.
My fiance - who lived there for a while - would probably agree with that. Mexico is 'right there'. Heck, my Ma is living in Bay City somewhere and she talks about driving down to Mexico to pick up watermelons.
Personally, I think she's nutters for considering that drive for mere melons.
Well when magic comes back, and the native Americans rise up with magic, that'll start it. Then after the crash of 29 it really will get bad.
My fiance - who lived there for a while - would probably agree with that. Mexico is 'right there'. Heck, my Ma is living in Bay City somewhere and she talks about driving down to Mexico to pick up watermelons.
Personally, I think she's nutters for considering that drive for mere melons.
Being able to walk over the Rio Grande to go drinking in Juarez was a trip :P. I do miss the authentic Mexican restaurants, New England is really bad about those...
But yeah, classic TV Texas? El Paso didn't have that vibe.
My fiance - who lived there for a while - would probably agree with that. Mexico is 'right there'. Heck, my Ma is living in Bay City somewhere and she talks about driving down to Mexico to pick up watermelons.
Personally, I think she's nutters for considering that drive for mere melons.
Being able to walk over the Rio Grande to go drinking in Juarez was a trip :P. I do miss the authentic Mexican restaurants, New England is really bad about those...
But yeah, classic TV Texas? El Paso didn't have that vibe.
Most of the U.S. outside of the southwest sorely lacks in authentic Mexican quisine. My fiance is awesome - she introduced me to the joy of green chile. It seems that green chile finds its way on nearly anything - burgers, pizza ... anything almost.
...Would you see yourself as a worthy dictator?
The fact that I do means I'm certainly wrong. :D
Well when magic comes back, and the native Americans rise up with magic, that'll start it. Then after the crash of 29 it really will get bad.
Seeker wins the thread.