One of my players is thinking of creating a Crossbow that fires Magic Missiles whenever the trigger is pulled.
I'm not great at the arcane science of magic item creation so please tell me if I'm doing this right, or if it can even be done.
Use activated (1 x 1 x 2,000)(Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000) = 2,000 gp
That seems straightforward except that below it talks about multipliers based on duration of the spell... and Magic Missile being the standard attack spell has no duration.
Thanks
One of my players is thinking of creating a Crossbow that fires Magic Missiles whenever the trigger is pulled.
I'm not great at the arcane science of magic item creation so please tell me if I'm doing this right, or if it can even be done.
Use activated (1 x 1 x 2,000)(Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000) = 2,000 gp
That seems straightforward except that below it talks about multipliers based on duration of the spell... and Magic Missile being the standard attack spell has no duration.
Thanks
You've got it right, but that would only fire 1 missile for 1d4+1 damage, which at the level neccessary to have the feat for creating Wonderous Items, isn't much. If he wanted two magic missiles at 3rd level, the cost would be 6,000 gp. (Caster Level 3 x Spell Level 1 x 2,000 gp)
I'd just make a wand in the shape of a crossbow. for good measure I would make it work like a masterwork club as well.
Batts
I'd just make a wand in the shape of a crossbow. for good measure I would make it work like a masterwork club as well.
Batts
A crossbow could actually still be used to fire crossbow bolts however... and possibly enchanted normal as a weapon too. So in an anti-magic field you would still have the weapon, and if you wanted to attack the target normally (say he has a shield spell up) you could.
I'd just make a wand in the shape of a crossbow. for good measure I would make it work like a masterwork club as well.
Batts
Ah, but a use activated doesn't have charges, while a wand does.
It's very important to remember that pulling that trigger to shoot a magic missile is a standard action! A ranger 20 with rapid reload and rapid shot and haste would not get to shoot 6 times a round with it.
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KaeYoss is correct up above. It is still a magic item and activating it is a standard action. You would ONLY get one attack a turn from the crossbow. Well if you activate the magic missile effect it would operate once. If you added the M.M. effect to a working crossbow you could get the extra normal attacks but without the M.M. part.
Also if it only has the M.M. effect added you also would NOT get the added +4 weapon training/greater weapon spec. That damage is added due to precise control and skill in placing the bolt in sensative spots. The M.M. effect is NOT dependant on where it hits. I can point blank a M.M. into a drunk, unconscious guys eye and it still only does 1d4+1.
Also rapid shot and deadly aim and many shot would not work either on the M.M. part anyway. Sorry guys /no cheese for you!
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A crossbow could actually still be used to fire crossbow bolts however... and possibly enchanted normal as a weapon too. So in an anti-magic field you would still have the weapon, and if you wanted to attack the target normally (say he has a shield spell up) you could.I'd just make a wand in the shape of a crossbow. for good measure I would make it work like a masterwork club as well.
Batts
I really need to remember this for when my wizard takes Craft Wand!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Which part of magic missile does he want?
Does he want the autohit feature? Then yes, I'd limit it to one a round, or more if he pays the higher CL. I'd also require it to be a masterwork crossbow.
Does he want it to use normal to hit rules but fire bolts of force instead of ammo? Then I'd say let it function as a normal crossbow in all ways (except reloads/ammo) and have it make a standard to hit roll, not ranged touch. I'd file this one under magic arms/armour, maybe a +2 bonus (it's kind of like Ghost touch, but better in that it produces its own ammo and RoF)
Does he want ranged touch attacks with the bolts of force? That's going to be more expensive, though I don't have handy the costs of the most famous version of the item.
Yrtalien, perhaps your player would settle for something like this?
A crossbow version of Hank's Energy Bow?
He could benefit from the different weapon feats while still dealing force damage. A compromise between a weapon and a wand.
edit: uh, Matthew Morris quite ninja-ed me...
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KaeYoss is correct up above. It is still a magic item and activating it is a standard action. You would ONLY get one attack a turn from the crossbow. Well if you activate the magic missile effect it would operate once. If you added the M.M. effect to a working crossbow you could get the extra normal attacks but without the M.M. part.
Also if it only has the M.M. effect added you also would NOT get the added +4 weapon training/greater weapon spec. That damage is added due to precise control and skill in placing the bolt in sensative spots. The M.M. effect is NOT dependant on where it hits. I can point blank a M.M. into a drunk, unconscious guys eye and it still only does 1d4+1.
Also rapid shot and deadly aim and many shot would not work either on the M.M. part anyway. Sorry guys /no cheese for you!
Cheese my ass. I was talking about customizing the magic item effect to basically create a magic missile 'gun' for a player (I'm talking about being the DM in this case. I would totally give this to a PC, hell I might have to boost it a bit, since it seems pretty weak. Maybe letting the enhancement bonus of the crossbow apply would handle the necessary damage boost)
Did you even read the point where I pointed out that the damage potential is actually low for the level? An archer is almost always going to dish out more damage, even if he always misses his last shot.
Even at 10k or 15k your homebrew item would be under priced. What your suggesting clearly does not follow the rules, even remotely. But lets say you home rule this as legal then be prepared for someone to attempt to unleash 3 lightning bolts a round from their wand because they are hasted and have 3 attacks now. You are also talking about an item that is autohit and force effect. To limit it by only the users attacks and to also allow feats that clearly should not apply is EXTREMELY unbalanced. Simply stating that - well a archer of equal level could deal more damage a round anyway is simply fail. That is very poor logic. You would do well to beware power creep in your home game. Things like your 5k M.M. handheld gatling gun will get out of hand very quickly.
I don't think it would be too overpowered, but I'd build it like this :
MW Repeating Crossbow : 700gp/550gp (Heavy/Light)
+1 Enhancement : +2000gp
Spell :
Magic Missile : CL 9, spell level 1, Duration Instant (once per round).
1 x 9 x 2,000 x 4 (special multiplier for duration) = +36,000gp
Final Cost : 38,700gp or 38,550gp (depending on heavy/light).
Using MM works as follows :
Maximum missiles that can be fired per round based on user's iterative attacks. Ranged feats do not work with attacks (no far shot, no rapid fire, etc) based on the magic missile attack. However, to compensate, each missile can be fired at a different target without needing to be within 15 feet of each other.
At that price, it's not something you're getting before 10th level, and honestly at that level a 1d4+1 auto-hit is not that overpowered.
Interesting ideas mdt, but um... your math doesn't match up lol.
By my math that comes out to 72,000 (and for the record, I would never pay, or expect a player to pay 36,000 for a magic missile bolt option. The absolute most I would ever consider balanced would be upwards of 12,000, and that's if both rapidshot and manyshot applied)Spell :
Magic Missile : CL 9, spell level 1, Duration Instant (once per round).
1 x 9 x 2,000 x 4 (special multiplier for duration) = +36,000gp
*facepalm*
I was thinking I'd be adding a * 0.5 adjustment factor because it's limited by how many shots you can make iteratively, but forgot to put that in. Thanks for catching.
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If you want it to shoot magic missiles, why not make a special kind of ammunition instead of having the crossbow do it?
Bolts of Force Missiles would be pretty handy, justifiably less expensive and make a bit more sense in terms of mechanics when it came to multi shot and so on. They could probably accept enhancements from the crossbow as well, making them a bit more damage-ish without going crazy.
Lol, no problem man, nobodies perfect. Would you tell me something though MDT? Throwing out the baseline formulae and all that, do you personally think that a "Fire Magic Missile bolts 440 feet" option for a crossbow (and allowing specialization feats to apply) is imbalanced as a 4,000 gold addon to a magic crossbow? If so, how much would you suggest, from a simple view and analyze balance perspective, not using the formulas.
I would consider it imbalanced, but probably because I'm thinking of it in a different way than you are.
It doesn't sound like much, but you have to think of how it can be used in the world. First off, you can take that 4,000gp MM Crossbow and outfit a hundred serfs with it and they become expert shots, never miss, and hit at any range up to 440 feet, every time. All 100 of them can be told to target the same person, or 10 each on 10 targets. That would take out your 'heroes' on the other side every time usually, or 1 or 2 volleys. A decent investment for a king. On top of that, those same 100 serfs could take down a castle wall from 440 feet away in an hour or two. Now, if every serf has been instructed in 'Rapidshot', they are taking two shots per round, and both automatically hit.
It's not too unbalanced for a single hero, the problem is when you start looking at it in terms of the game world. And you can bet that if it's 4000gp, at level 7 someone will take leadership and arm all their 1st level and second level grunts with this item. That's 10-15 auto-hit 1d4+1 attacks per round from 400 feet away. Deffinately overpowered (especially at a cost of only 40-60K).
(although.. really, a 15 man unit equipped for 90,000 when you could have two thousand men equipped with mundane gear instead?)
Several points :
1) It's easier to sneak 15 men up to a castle a week before your army arrives than it is 2000 men.
2) 2000 men are much more expensive to feed, train, keep around, etc than 15 men (or a 100 men).
3) PC's don't get 2000 followers, they do get 10 to 20.
EDIT:
As an example, let's say you are going to attack a castle. Take 15 veteran rangers (say, level 8), give them 6,000gp crossbows that shoot magic missiles. Get them to sneak 440 feet from the castle's northern wall (the one where you can get your troops against easiest). Each one has rapidshot, so they get 3 attacks per round. They all open fire on the wall at the same time.
Minimum dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 2 = 90hps
Maximum dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 5 = 225hps
Average dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 3.5 = 157hps
10 rounds per minute : 900 to 2250hps per minute, average 1575hps per minute
Figure they could fire for 5 minutes before they have to scatter. Minimum damage to the wall is 4500hps. Maximum 11250hps, and average of 7875hps. If that doesn't bring the wall down, it certainly makes it swiss cheese for the army's siege engines.
wow... lmfao, best item idea ever. Why didn't I think of this? lol, It's genius!
I wish you great luck with this item.
Hmm, the more I think of this, the nastier it gets. Again, 15 fighers or rangers, 8th level (even NPC warriors work). Outfit them with 6,000gp MM crossbows, cloaks of improved invisability, and wings to fly. Expensive, but not all that expensive.
Send them up over the castle during the fight, have them target the commanders in the castle from above. Instant arial bombardment, no misses. Worth the investment.
So, yeah, I think +4,000 gp for the ability is a game changer. Make it 36K per crossbow, and now it's not worth the cost for those 15 rangers.
One of my players is thinking of creating a Crossbow that fires Magic Missiles whenever the trigger is pulled.
I'm not great at the arcane science of magic item creation so please tell me if I'm doing this right, or if it can even be done.
Use activated (1 x 1 x 2,000)(Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000) = 2,000 gp
That seems straightforward except that below it talks about multipliers based on duration of the spell... and Magic Missile being the standard attack spell has no duration.
Thanks
For another data point, in the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium, there was is Force property for +2 Bonus cost that turned all projectiles into force energy.
So, a +1 Hand Crossbow of Force would cost 18,000 and do 1d4+1 points of damage per bolt. The bolts overcome DR and can affect incorporeals normally, but don't auto-hit, and have a much more limited range. The cost only goes up from there...
Actually, I was just about to suggest upping the price for that very reason.Crank the price up to 3,000 (or perhaps 4,000 if you REALLY want to) as a custom adjustment, and change the magic missile firing rate from standard action to as an attack.
It creates a dangerous precedence. If you can use spells as attack actions now, people will want you to have an enervation longbow and people nuking balors in a round.
Regretably though, Kaeyoss is probably right about needing to make it a +1 crossbow before you do that
I am? I don't remember saying that.
Cheese my ass.
That is one disturbing request. Could you please refrain from bringing your deranged fetishes in here? Thanks.
Yeah, I see your point, but again that's GM ruling.
As everything. Still, once that can of worms is opened... You better make it clear that this is not a new way of enhancing weapons or magic, but rather a special ability, that just works as if it were a magic missile. Depending on who you play with, that can save you a lot of trouble.
I'm not sure I would allow enervation at all
I'm sure I wouldn't. No way in Hell. No matter what it costs, it's too cheap. 1d4 negative levels per attack? With rapid shot and haste, you can easily get 6 ranged attacks. And if you open this up for all sorts of weapons. Want to make monks scary? Imagine Medusa's Wrath with a ki-striking, hasted monk doing a flurry of blows for like a dozen attacks.
although wizards do pretty much the same thing with metamagic.
The thing is that they can have a maximum of two spells per round. There's just no way of getting more. But if make someone use spells as attacks, you might as well pass out nukes to everyone.
Oh, and as for the cheese comment, yeah I usually keep my mind out of the gutter so I don't see the gross potential in my statements (usually, including this case, though admittedly not always)Sorry for the miscommunication there.
:D
Well, think about it. If it costs enough then it's taking away other options. I'm still not sure I would allow it, but I'm open to the possibility at enough cost.Hmmm, a +4 weapon ability (minimum price = 50,000, as a +1 weapon) AND it drains a level every turn it's held unless the individual in question has a specific feat tuned to the weapon.
That ought to do it.
Nope, my group would sell stuff to buy it and someone would take the feat to use it. As soon as they had enough money to buy it, it would get bought. Any piece of equipment that becomes a 'must have' at any level is way too powerful.
(although.. really, a 15 man unit equipped for 90,000 when you could have two thousand men equipped with mundane gear instead?)Several points :
1) It's easier to sneak 15 men up to a castle a week before your army arrives than it is 2000 men.
2) 2000 men are much more expensive to feed, train, keep around, etc than 15 men (or a 100 men).
3) PC's don't get 2000 followers, they do get 10 to 20.
EDIT:
As an example, let's say you are going to attack a castle. Take 15 veteran rangers (say, level 8), give them 6,000gp crossbows that shoot magic missiles. Get them to sneak 440 feet from the castle's northern wall (the one where you can get your troops against easiest). Each one has rapidshot, so they get 3 attacks per round. They all open fire on the wall at the same time.
Minimum dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 2 = 90hps
Maximum dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 5 = 225hps
Average dmg per round : 15 * 3 * 3.5 = 157hps10 rounds per minute : 900 to 2250hps per minute, average 1575hps per minute
Figure they could fire for 5 minutes before they have to scatter. Minimum damage to the wall is 4500hps. Maximum 11250hps, and average of 7875hps. If that doesn't bring the wall down, it certainly makes it swiss cheese for the army's siege engines.
'cept magic missile cannot target objects, only creatures. And, if you have the coin lying around to fit out that group with Crossbows o' Perforation, you can bet that the opponents have a ready supply of brooches of shielding. Not to mention it will not be long before these same foes are fitting out there own elite ranger squads or companies similarly.
'cept magic missile cannot target objects, only creatures. And, if you have the coin lying around to fit out that group with Crossbows o' Perforation, you can bet that the opponents have a ready supply of brooches of shielding. Not to mention it will not be long before these same foes are fitting out there own elite ranger squads or companies similarly.
That was sort of my point, you're starting an arms race. Soon every kingdom will have to have lots and lots of these things. The only thing that can keep the arms race in check is a very high price on the object, that balances it out as usefulness vs cost. Something cheap and highly useful will replace something useful but cheap. For example, firearms replaced swords when they were cheap enough to reasonably give out to all your troops, and they were useful enough to justify the expense. That started with rifles, since you could add a bayonette and have a spear at close range. Only officers had pistols, because they weren't useful yet. That changed towards the end of the century when you had cartridges and revolvers/repeaters, then everyone got a pistol, knife, and usually a rifle.
As to MM only affecting creatures, that's a very strict interpretation that leads to all sorts of inconsistencies. For example, a stone golem is not a creature, it's a construct, the same as a wall, and therefore can't be targeted by a MM. A MM is just a ball of force, it's not a mind affecting spell, so it should work against anything. The description says creatures as targets because it's primarily meant to damage creatures, but there's no reason why a ball of force wouldn't slam into a plank of wood or a tree just as hard as a person. Following that logic, Scorching Ray only works against people who are your enemies, because the description specifically states you damage your enemies with it. Which means it too wouldn't work against allies, against tree's, or wooden walls.
As to MM only affecting creatures, that's a very strict interpretation that leads to all sorts of inconsistencies. For example, a stone golem is not a creature, it's a construct, the same as a wall, and therefore can't be targeted by a MM. A MM is just a ball of force, it's not a mind affecting spell, so it should work against anything. The description says creatures as targets because it's primarily meant to damage creatures, but there's no reason why a ball of force wouldn't slam into a plank of wood or a tree just as hard as a person. Following that logic, Scorching Ray only works against people who are your enemies, because the description specifically states you damage your enemies with it. Which means it too wouldn't work against allies, against tree's, or wooden walls.
Well, constructs are a creature type, whereas a wall/building/tire/swing set are objects. Gear on a creature is comprised of attended objects. magic missile explicitly states - and always has - that it targets creatures and cannot target objects. I agree that they perhaps should be able to, although the low damage per missile makes this use of the spell most often ineffective.
Perhaps more pertinent to the example is that force damage does not ignore hardness, so the 2-5 points per shot of force damage does nothing to the stone wall with a hardness of 8. Magically reinforced stone walls have a hardness of 16 if memory serves, so the 5 minute perforation does ... nothing to the curtain wall other than give away the rangers' position.
Well, constructs are a creature type, whereas a wall/building/tire/swing set are objects. Gear on a creature is comprised of attended objects. magic missile explicitly states - and always has - that it targets creatures and cannot target objects. I agree that they perhaps should be able to, although the low damage per missile makes this use of the spell most often ineffective.Perhaps more pertinent to the example is that force damage does not ignore hardness, so the 2-5 points per shot of force damage does nothing to the stone wall with a hardness of 8. Magically reinforced stone walls have a hardness of 16 if memory serves, so the 5 minute perforation does ... nothing to the curtain wall other than give away the rangers' position.
The hardness I'll grant you. Although honestly, if we're giving hardness then someone walking around in Full Plate should be immune to MM as well as anyone in full body armor that's anything heavier than leather (steel is hardness 10, mithral 15, adamantine 20, stone 8), and a wooden or steel shield should give a miss percentage (hit the shield didn't penetrate, wood is 5 and steel is 10).
I've always had an issue with how hardness works, because it really should make you immune to certain attacks (full plate should ignore most light bows and thrown daggers) but it doesn't. If you're going to ignore hardness for a person's armor, you need to do the same thing for objects, which throws the whole thing out the window.
Additionally, a +1 MM Crossbow should be doing 1d4+2 (1d4+1 for the MM, +1 enhancement bonus). Which would allow it to perforate a portcullis (hardness 5) in relatively short order.
Of course, once you have a +1 MM crossbow, you could make it a Flaming MM Crossbow, which does 1d4+2 + 1d6 which let's it perforate that stone wall in relatively short order as well (4-12 dmg).
Note that you can do this with a normal light or heavy repeating crossbow already, especially if you stack on a quiver of storage in the crossbow's bolt holder. Expensive item, but not as expensive as I made the MM crossbow, and when it comes to perferorating a stone wall, it's a no-miss chance anyway (for all intents and purposes).
To the OP's question:
One of my players is thinking of creating a Crossbow that fires Magic Missiles whenever the trigger is pulled.
I'm not great at the arcane science of magic item creation so please tell me if I'm doing this right, or if it can even be done.
Use activated (1 x 1 x 2,000)(Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000) = 2,000 gp
That seems straightforward except that below it talks about multipliers based on duration of the spell... and Magic Missile being the standard attack spell has no duration.
If you use the standard rule of 5 uses per day, 2000 gp is fine (actually 1800 since this is more command word activated than use-activated). This would make it 360/use/day. And simply multiply by caster level if they want more hits.
Any unlimited, auto-hitting force effect should cost quite a bundle. I'm not that familiar with them, but compare with an everlasting wand of magic missile: the daily limit keeps it in check.
Why not just make an arcane archer? :P
That is basically taking their class feature from them.
Arcane Archer is better anyway. "If I can see it, I can kill it." :)
Meh, Magic missile is inferior to a laser rifle...aka scorching ray crossbow. Though having it fire 5 magic missiles would be like a scatter gun.
I have a death ray gun and I'm not afraid to use it.
Meh, Magic missile is inferior to a laser rifle...aka scorching ray crossbow. Though having it fire 5 magic missiles would be like a scatter gun.But it always hits, not so clumsy or random as a blaster...
ranged touch...pretty easy to hit regardless.
Fireball Rifle?
Enervation Rifle?
Feeblemind Rifle?
"You are free to use any methods necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegrations."
^_^ I just love well-timed Star Wars quotations.
^_^ I just love well-timed Star Wars quotations.All too easy...
Impressive... very impressive... I see master yoda has taught you well.