Is there any use for a bonus spell slot of a level higher than the highest level of spell castable by a spellcaster (e.g. can you use that bonus slot to, say, extend (metamagic) your highest level castable spell)?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Let me make sure I follow.
You have a 16 Int Wizard at first level, and you want to know if you can cast a spell metamagicked up to second level, right?
Page 16: In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.
So your first level wizard will have a bonus second level spell, but he's not of a high enough class level to cast it.
Now the inverse is not true. a 12th level sorcerer who has his charisma reduced to 11 can't cast any spells higher than first level, but he can throw out metamagicked first level spells with those higher slots. so, for example, he could throw a quickened magic missile (5th level spell slot) followed by a normal magic missile (1st level slot) but he cannot throw a quickened scorching ray (6th level slot) because his Charisma is only 11 (first level spells only).
Hope that helps.
Let me make sure I follow.
You have a 16 Int Wizard at first level, and you want to know if you can cast a spell metamagicked up to second level, right?
Page 16: In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.
So your first level wizard will have a bonus second level spell, but he's not of a high enough class level to cast it.
Now the inverse is not true. a 12th level sorcerer who has his charisma reduced to 11 can't cast any spells higher than first level, but he can throw out metamagicked first level spells with those higher slots. so, for example, he could throw a quickened magic missile (5th level spell slot) followed by a normal magic missile (1st level slot) but he cannot throw a quickened scorching ray (6th level slot) because his Charisma is only 11 (first level spells only).
Hope that helps.
Yes, this helps and thank you! It is as I surmised, just trying to squeeze some more utility out of a campaign with level limits...
Now the inverse is not true. a 12th level sorcerer who has his charisma reduced to 11 can't cast any spells higher than first level, but he can throw out metamagicked first level spells with those higher slots. so, for example, he could throw a quickened magic missile (5th level spell slot) followed by a normal magic missile (1st level slot) but he cannot throw a quickened scorching ray (6th level slot) because his Charisma is only 11 (first level spells only).
Are you quite sure about that? As in, has a Paizo developer actually come in and confirmed that? That doesn't seem right.
Now the inverse is not true. a 12th level sorcerer who has his charisma reduced to 11 can't cast any spells higher than first level, but he can throw out metamagicked first level spells with those higher slots. so, for example, he could throw a quickened magic missile (5th level spell slot) followed by a normal magic missile (1st level slot) but he cannot throw a quickened scorching ray (6th level slot) because his Charisma is only 11 (first level spells only).Are you quite sure about that? As in, has a Paizo developer actually come in and confirmed that? That doesn't seem right.
Yep this is correct. The issue is having access to the slots. At level one you do not have the slots, but say if you where 12th level with an Int of 14. Now you can only cast 14th level spells but you do still have 5th, 6th and 7th level slots to fill. You just can't put a spell higher then 4th level in said slot
Can anyone give me a link to a dev's comment or a page number? It's the only way anyone in my gaming circle will let this fly in our games.
Man that is the way it has worked as far back as I can recall. You do not gain slots until you have the level to open them up. But you do not loose slots you have gained, even if you can not cast spells of that level.
Page 218 covers this "Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels."
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It does say this in the descriptor for each class' ability to cast spells. If you don't have a required ability score you cannot even learn spells of a higher level if you're a sorc or bard, nor can you prepare them in other cases. Each one is under "spells" in the class features section of whichever class is casting the spell.
For example:
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
We overlooked this in our games until a few years ago as well. <shrug>
Yeah but where does it say you can still cast higher level spells via metamagic?
Heighten spell: 'A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.'
Second line.
The effective level of spells with metamagic are unchanged; the save DC doesn't change, the spell is still whatever level for globe of invulnerability, etc. It just takes up a higher level spell SLOT, which is different.
For what it's worth, this had never hit me until this thread, either. ;)
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Yeah but where does it say you can still cast higher level spells via metamagic?
Ah, right!
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
combined with:
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
However, I don't see that it would hurt if someone said something more definitive on the matter. It still puzzles me about bonus spells, and it would really help if it was clarified that these aren't gained until you have the sufficient spell level as a class to gain them.
Yeah but where does it say you can still cast higher level spells via metamagic?
When you throw out a metamagicked spell you are using a higher level slot, but it is still considered a to be the same level as the original spell.
The only feat that raise the actual spell level of a spell is heighten spell.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Yeah but where does it say you can still cast higher level spells via metamagic?Ah, right!
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.combined with:
However, I don't see that it would hurt if someone said something more definitive on the matter. It still puzzles me about bonus spells, and it would really help if it was clarified that these aren't gained until you have the sufficient spell level as a class to gain them.
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
You can't cast the spells until you are high of a high enough level to cast them.
From the PRD
Abilities and Spellcasters
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details.
However, I don't see that it would hurt if someone said something more definitive on the matter. It still puzzles me about bonus spells, and it would really help if it was clarified that these aren't gained until you have the sufficient spell level as a class to gain them.
I do not see the issue here. You can not cast 2nd level spells until you are 3rd level(wiz)
As you do not have the slots yet you can not use what you do not have. Now your extra spells from a high score grant you extra slots. Now can you use a slot you do not have yet?
Simply put you only gain 2nd level slots at 3rd level, so no matter where you get "slots" from until 3rd level they are simply not there
This is not the same as having the slots but not the skill to cast that level of spell. Slots access is level depended not tied to your score.Spell levels you can cast are tied to your score, but not slots
Is there any use for a bonus spell slot of a level higher than the highest level of spell castable by a spellcaster (e.g. can you use that bonus slot to, say, extend (metamagic) your highest level castable spell)?
This is an interesting topic. While I can't see allowing a level 2 wizard to extend a mage armor for 4 hour duration, I could see allowing him a bonus slot 0+1 from high int to prep a first level spell not metamagic'd in a 2nd level slot. This could help casters at low level with very few spells per day. If a 18 Int Wizard at level 1 had his 1 from class + 1 from specialty + 4 from int(1 of 1,2,3,&4 level spells) that would definately give him more playability at low levels
Would that make them overpowered? I don't think so. They struggle most at low level, and by 10th level this bonus would work itself out of the game.|
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However, I don't see that it would hurt if someone said something more definitive on the matter. It still puzzles me about bonus spells, and it would really help if it was clarified that these aren't gained until you have the sufficient spell level as a class to gain them.I do not see the issue here. You can not cast 2nd level spells until you are 3rd level(wiz)
As you do not have the slots yet you can not use what you do not have. Now your extra spells from a high score grant you extra slots. Now can you use a slot you do not have yet?
Simply put you only gain 2nd level slots at 3rd level, so no matter where you get "slots" from until 3rd level they are simply not there
This is not the same as having the slots but not the skill to cast that level of spell. Slots access is level depended not tied to your score.Spell levels you can cast are tied to your score, but not slots
I can't find where this is definitively the case, which is the only reason I said that. I've never played a game where those spells were available earlier, and I wouldn't assume it was the case. I just wouldn't mind something official. Perhaps its just I'm not finding this in the book. I'd like a smoking gun, is all.
I can't find where this is definitively the case, which is the only reason I said that. I've never played a game where those spells were available earlier, and I wouldn't assume it was the case. I just wouldn't mind something official. Perhaps its just I'm not finding this in the book. I'd like a smoking gun, is all.
My last post took care of that. I even bolded it.
Edit: Here is a smaller more focused part of that post
a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
That was straight from the PRD.
My last post took care of that. I even bolded it.
Edit: Here is a smaller more focused part of that post
a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
That was straight from the PRD.
That's a given, though. The books still don't seem to specify that should you take ability damage and can't cast higher level spells you can still use those slots for metamagic feats. I can see where some are getting the assumption, but I've yet to see anything definitive that can't be denied.
PAGE 112 states meta magic does not change spell level.just the slot.A 3rd level spell is a 3rd level spell,no matter how many meta feats you add to it. So yes you can use the slots, but its still just a lower level spell
That's a given, though. The books still don't seem to specify that should you take ability damage and can't cast higher level spells you can still use those slots for metamagic feats. I can see where some are getting the assumption, but I've yet to see anything definitive that can't be denied.My last post took care of that. I even bolded it.
Edit: Here is a smaller more focused part of that post
a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
That was straight from the PRD.
What are you talking about with ability damage? The ability score determines the actual spell level you can cast. It does not say it affects the slot. That is why there is a difference between heighten spell, and the other metamagics. As an example if I dont have an int of 13 I can't cast an actual 3rd level spell because the rules say so. They in no way restricts my 3rd level slot. As it has been said before even if you are using a 3rd level slot to cast a 1st level metamagicked spell you are still casting a 1st level spell, and that is all the rules account for is the spell level. The only way to deny that slot is to decrease my caster last level since that is the only way to eliminate a slot. The table in the book shows a correlation between caster level and slots. The book also make a specific connection between minimum ability scores and spells that can be cast. Spells and spell slots are not the same.
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We have shown him what affects spells and what affects spell slots. If he wants to mix and match the two that is his problem.... but I've yet to see anything definitive that can't be denied.What would prevent this?
Just wondered what he thought. You and I see it one way, just wondering why he saw it the other.
Just wondered what he thought. You and I see it one way, just wondering why he saw it the other.We have shown him what affects spells and what affects spell slots. If he wants to mix and match the two that is his problem.... but I've yet to see anything definitive that can't be denied.What would prevent this?
I think he wants(ed) one all inclusive statement that specifically states you can't break the rule of gaining access to spells beyond your level..... He has not responded in a while so he may be convinced, and my last post have been a bit harsh. I guess I should remove it.
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I think he wants(ed) one all inclusive statement that specifically states you can't break the rule of gaining access to spells beyond your level..... He has not responded in a while so he may be convinced, and my last post have been a bit harsh. I guess I should remove it.Just wondered what he thought. You and I see it one way, just wondering why he saw it the other.We have shown him what affects spells and what affects spell slots. If he wants to mix and match the two that is his problem.... but I've yet to see anything definitive that can't be denied.What would prevent this?
Don't sweat it, I take no offense. The boards have seemed heated lately, I wonder if it just that time of year. I'd still give him a day. :D
No worries. I took no offense.
The rules are a bit confusing regarding this matter. So you're saying a Wizard with an Int of 12 who's 17th level could cast a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray, but not a Fireball?
No worries. I took no offense.
The rules are a bit confusing regarding this matter. So you're saying a Wizard with an Int of 12 who's 17th level could cast a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray, but not a Fireball?
I still apologize, and I am calm again.
Now to answer your question, the answer is yes, due to the fact that they run off of different requirements.
yep. He has the slots. He does not have the ability to comprehend 3rd level spells, but may still modify what he knows and understands
What about a first lvl wiz using higher level BONUS spell slots to cast 1st lvl spells? he isnt casting spells above his lvl, nor is he casting spells not allowed based on INT modifier. this issue has come up in one of my games and im just curious.....
He does not have the Bonus slots until he can cast the spell level of the bonus slot. So he gets his Bonus level 2 slot when he can cast level 2 spells and not before
He does not have the Bonus slots until he can cast the spell level of the bonus slot. So he gets his Bonus level 2 slot when he can cast level 2 spells and not before
Yeah, what he said.
[stands behind seeker with my arms crossed in an intimidating manner]
See you can't have a "bonus" until you have the "normal"...
It's like trying to get a bonus check before you actually get the paycheck... or going to the bonus round without doing the normal round...
Until you cover that first step you don't get the extra ones.
Why what? why do you not have 20 levels wroth of spell slots at level one? That seems to be what your asking. As the only why you get extra slots of any level is to have slots of that level available to start with.
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Why what? why do you not have 20 levels wroth of spell slots at level one? That seems to be what your asking. As the only why you get extra slots of any level is to have slots of that level available
I am asking what in the rules prevents you from using higher level bonus spell slots? I am not finding anything that prevents this, nor anything that assumes you could either. I would side toward not being able to use them, but why? It is a fair question.
I stated what. You do not have slots. Spell slots depends on class level. To have "extra" means you have access to said level. If you do not have the slots then you can not have extra of what you have none.
Thats simple does a level 1 caster have 1 slot or 40 slots? If he has 1 slot then you do not have higher level slots to "burn" and hince no extra. If he has 40 slots to "burn" then he also has all extra slots
I'll see if I can find what your asking but it's kinda silly to be honest, unless the caster starts with 40 spell slots. Something we know they do not
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Thats simple does a level 1 caster have 1 slot or 40 slots? If he has 1 slot then you do not have higher level slots to "burn" and hince no extra. If he has 40 slots to "burn" then he also has all extra slots
I'll see if I can find what your asking but it's kinda silly to be honest, unless the caster starts with 40 spell slots. Something we know they do not
Sorry, just looking for a final nail. A first level wizard will probably have 2 or 3 slots with bonus spells. Its pretty clear you cannot cast 2nd level spells, but what prevents you from preparing a metamagic or 1st level spell there? I'm looking too, and the bonus spell table, of course, says nothing. :(
The reason I play devil's advocate is that I don't want arguments cropping up in my game when someone reads this thread down the line or comes to an odd conclusion.
Well the wording makes it clear. They call it "bonus" slots. You do not get a bonus or extra for something you do not have.
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Well the wording makes it clear. They call it "bonus" slots. You do not get a bonus or extra for something you do not have.
Is that clear? If I don't have ranks in a given skill, don't I still have a total "bonus"? I still get bonus languages if I cannot speak. I still have an attack bonus even if I'm not proficient with a weapon.
This is why I want something clear. I don't mean to push.
Well the wording makes it clear. They call it "bonus" slots. You do not get a bonus or extra for something you do not have.Is that clear? If I don't have ranks in a given skill, don't I still have a total "bonus"? I still get bonus languages if I cannot speak. I still have an attack bonus even if I'm not proficient with a weapon.
This is why I want something clear. I don't mean to push.
Well then studpuffin a fighter with an intelligence of 20 should get his bonus spells too shouldn't he? After all their his slots he should get use of them.
Well the wording makes it clear. They call it "bonus" slots. You do not get a bonus or extra for something you do not have.Is that clear? If I don't have ranks in a given skill, don't I still have a total "bonus"? I still get bonus languages if I cannot speak. I still have an attack bonus even if I'm not proficient with a weapon.
This is why I want something clear. I don't mean to push.
If you dont have access to 2nd level slots then how can you use them?
It's kind of like having 100 dollars in your pocket and having 1000 in a trust fund, that you can't access until you turn 18.
Edit: Another point I will make is that if someone wants something bad enough in the game the rules can be twisted to make it sound ok(to them), and almost no amount of logic will work in that case.
There are no rules that state I can't make a 90 degree turn in the middle of a jump, but I doubt that would fly in anyone's game.
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Well then studpuffin a fighter with an intelligence of 20 should get his bonus spells too shouldn't he? After all their his slots he should get use of them.Well the wording makes it clear. They call it "bonus" slots. You do not get a bonus or extra for something you do not have.Is that clear? If I don't have ranks in a given skill, don't I still have a total "bonus"? I still get bonus languages if I cannot speak. I still have an attack bonus even if I'm not proficient with a weapon.
This is why I want something clear. I don't mean to push.
But that is what I am trying to prevent. I agree, it shouldn't be.
However, it could also be argued that a fighter doesn't have a spell-list, or sufficient caster level, or whatever. I'm just looking for the hard rule here.
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If you dont have access to 2nd level slots then how can you use them?
It's kind of like having 100 dollars in your pocket and having 1000 in a trust fund, that you can't access until you turn 18.
I'm not using 2nd level spells, I'm using 1st level spells in a bonus slot.
Edit: and remember, this is all devil's advocate.
If you dont have access to 2nd level slots then how can you use them?
It's kind of like having 100 dollars in your pocket and having 1000 in a trust fund, that you can't access until you turn 18.
I'm not using 2nd level spells, I'm using 1st level spells in a bonus slot.
Edit: and remember, this is all devil's advocate.
Then lets just go with the rules then:
"he ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details."
Pretty well seals the deal right there.
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Then lets just go with the rules then:"he ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details."
Pretty well seals the deal right there.
So, I have 1st level caster and am casting a 1st level spell. What seals the deal here?
If you dont have access to 2nd level slots then how can you use them?
It's kind of like having 100 dollars in your pocket and having 1000 in a trust fund, that you can't access until you turn 18.
I'm not using 2nd level spells, I'm using 1st level spells in a bonus slot.
Edit: and remember, this is all devil's advocate.
But the slots are still second level. You still have to be level X caster to access those slots. Either you are level X or you are not.
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But the slots are still second level. You still have to be level X caster to access those slots. Either you are level X or you are not.
If you dont have access to 2nd level slots then how can you use them?
It's kind of like having 100 dollars in your pocket and having 1000 in a trust fund, that you can't access until you turn 18.
I'm not using 2nd level spells, I'm using 1st level spells in a bonus slot.
Edit: and remember, this is all devil's advocate.
Where does it say that? I am 1st level, casting 1st level spells. I use a higher spell slot. This is possible, as we covered above. I have everything needed to cast said spell. The question is: Where does it say I don't have access to a higher level bonus spell slot? When do you actually gain it? Is it level one or is it at some other point? It boggles the mind, I'm looking as hard as I can too!