Unusual Spells for Sorcerers and Alchemists.

[Mnemaxa]

I noticed this first in the Sorcerer long ago, and it crops up again in the Alchemist.

What exactly does it mean that a sorcerer or an alchemist may choose their spells/formulae from unusual sources that they have studied? It does not really specify in any place I've looked. Does this mean that a sorcerer could theoretically learn a spell such as Barkskin if he is taught it by a druid and is high enough level to cast it? Could an alchemist learn to create an extract of Protection From Evil if he studied the spell in depth? Both of those presume spending time and money on research, of course, but the question still stands - what exactly does it mean that they can learn unusual spells not on their spell lists?

In my home ruled games this is possible, but an official ruling after so long would be nice.

[hogarth]

I interpret it as being a vague reference to being able to research new spells, but not necessarily using the same "Independent Research" rules as the wizard.

[Dennis da Ogre]

I think it is deliberately vague to leave it up to GM interpretation. I would avoid letting them use it to add spells from other classes and allow them to use the ability to invent new spells.

Sometimes it might make sense to let them duplicate a spell from another class. For example I might let a draconic bloodline sorcerer make a spell called "scaleskin" which duplicates barkskin but turns his skin into dragon scales.

[Kolokotroni]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

I think it is deliberately vague to leave it up to GM interpretation. I would avoid letting them use it to add spells from other classes and allow them to use the ability to invent new spells.

Sometimes it might make sense to let them duplicate a spell from another class. For example I might let a draconic bloodline sorcerer make a spell called "scaleskin" which duplicates barkskin but turns his skin into dragon scales.

I would much rather something less vague and that just has a line 'subject to DM discretion' then to have something like that, if that is indeed the intent.

[Mnemaxa]

hogarth wrote:

I interpret it as being a vague reference to being able to research new spells, but not necessarily using the same "Independent Research" rules as the wizard.

This wouldn't work, unfortunately - they're strictly limited to the number of spells they can possibly know by the class limits, so simply researching new spells is pointless.

From the book, it states that when they gain new spells by advancing in level:

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

This is true of the Alchemist as well.

There is no point to this statement if it limits them strictly to their own spell list, since they don't need to research extra spells they could possibly cast like a wizard or witch might need to. Bards do not get this option at all, which is understandable given the nature of their spells.

[Dragonborn3]

Mnemaxa wrote:

hogarth wrote:

I interpret it as being a vague reference to being able to research new spells, but not necessarily using the same "Independent Research" rules as the wizard.

This wouldn't work, unfortunately - they're strictly limited to the number of spells they can possibly know by the class limits, so simply researching new spells is pointless.

From the book, it states that when they gain new spells by advancing in level:

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

This is true of the Alchemist as well.

There is no point to this statement if it limits them strictly to their own spell list, since they don't need to research extra spells they could possibly cast like a wizard or witch might need to. Bards do not get this option at all, which is understandable given the nature of their spells.

I believe it is intended to mean when a Sorcerer/Bard gains a new spell known, they can choose to learn the unusual spell instead.

[Mnemaxa]

[quote Dragonborn3]I believe it is intended to mean when a Sorcerer/Bard gains a new spell known, they can choose to learn the unusual spell instead.

Well, yes, but whence can these unusual spells come from? Another class' spell list? Created by the player? Created by the GM? This question has never been addressed by anyone that I've ever located, not in 3.0, 3.5, on WotC Sage Advice, or anywhere else. Yet the rule persists, without explanation or ruling.

[jocundthejolly]

It is repeated in the Magic chapter, pg 220.

'With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.'

I take it to be a good narrative tool. The sorcerer and bard take a rather eclectic, free-spirited, flexible (chaotic, perhaps) approach to magic, while the wizard takes a focused, systematic, structured (lawful, if you will) approach, and relies on spellbooks. So, for example, let's say the adventurers are exploring a dungeon and they happen upon the remnants of an ancient obelisk, on which is graven an unusual spell. The sorceror or bard can perhaps spend some time studying the spell and gain a strong intuitive grasp of how to work the magic. The wizard may be able to learn it also, but must spend time analyzing it and copying it into his spellbook, and may experience some difficulty because it is alien or unorthodox.

[seekerofshadowlight]

To me it comes off as you may take with permission spell from the wizard/sorcerer list from sorcerer other then the core book. To me it does not imply you may take a spell off of another list

[varianor]

Mnemaxa wrote:

Well, yes, but whence can these unusual spells come from? Another class' spell list? Created by the player? Created by the GM?

Yes to all of the above. Or from a published d20 source. Example: Eldritch Sorcery, from Necromancer Games, which hasn't gotten enough love, and which brought back a bunch of old familiar spells (like glassteel and gave us new and cool stuff like paper tigers.

Not to mention which, there may be more spells coming out in the APG, Kobold Quarterly, or other sources in the future. I love new spells!

[Scipion del Ferro]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

To me it comes off as you may take with permission spell from the wizard/sorcerer list from sorcerer other then the core book. To me it does not imply you may take a spell off of another list

I agree with it being a nod to the spells for these classes from splash books and the like.

[LazarX]

Mnemaxa wrote:

I noticed this first in the Sorcerer long ago, and it crops up again in the Alchemist.

What exactly does it mean that a sorcerer or an alchemist may choose their spells/formulae from unusual sources that they have studied? It does not really specify in any place I've looked. Does this mean that a sorcerer could theoretically learn a spell such as Barkskin if he is taught it by a druid and is high enough level to cast it? Could an alchemist learn to create an extract of Protection From Evil if he studied the spell in depth? Both of those presume spending time and money on research, of course, but the question still stands - what exactly does it mean that they can learn unusual spells not on their spell lists?

In my home ruled games this is possible, but an official ruling after so long would be nice.

It's the open ended expression of Rule Zero, that a sorcerer when it comes time to leveling up, instead of choosing a standard spell from the rulebook can create something individual and unique for a spell instead with the magic words... GM Approval. It literally means go to your GM.

Now as to your specific question it really depends on where your GM is on the separation of Divine and Arcane, a strict GM will say... "forget about it", a permissive GM may admit anything you submit. Most will fall somewhere in between. Most GM's will rule that spells a sorcerer creates should fall within the wide traditional boundaries of arcane magic. The exceptions like the Simbul's Synostodweomer had some major tradeoffs for bridging tha barrier, it was a healing spell at the cost of expending other spells to power a weak form of healing.

By the general definition of the text... homerules are the only answer you'll get to this question, which means that for the purposes fo Network Play, this option will generally not exist.

[Mnemaxa]

Thank you all for taking the time to help me with this. It is appreciated.