So, with that said. How do you fine folks deal with the more adult things that happen in games? By which I mean: Sex (sexuality is mentioned elsethread), drugs, long-term relationships, short-term relationships, inter-PC relationships, abuse (I'm not going to use the r*** word here, it's a bit close to the edge), etc. Obviously there's a lot of room for the scope of this discussion, and I've had my share of experiences in gaming.
We don't, really. Most of these things don't come up in our game, and we're not really interested in those things during our games, either.
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It could save your sanity...
I know I know!
I was at my job when I tried to post, and posting just before having to get up. Didn't even cross my mind to copy and paste at the time... and my version of word auto-saves every two minutes.
As for the post, it was along the gist of :
No one should ever have to worry about other players at the table. If things get to a point where anyone is uncomfortable, its a good idea to just tell everyone to cut it out. If it persists, then its time to leave. The gaming group should be a place where people feel comfortable. If someone is making things uncomfortable, then hopefully the group or someone in it will recognize the problem and say something to put an end to it.
In my CotCT group we have a 15 year old and his father playing with us, and another member of our group seems to revert to being a little boy when the 15 year old is around. At one point he called the boy a bad name and flipped him off, which he thought was funny but everyone at the table yelled at him. The two seem to just rub each other the wrong way, and that was enough that the father had strong words with this friend. Luckily, I was able to avoid a crisis by speaking with all the parties involved, showing each how they might be over-reacting and they how I might be able to run the game more smoothly. We've been running much easier. This also involved the 15 year old calming down some and the older friend saying he's sorry.
Its not just these friends who are affected either, but everyone at the table such as my girlfriend and another friend who usually sits calmly and plays excellently. Its unfortunate that something like this would arise, and that anyone else had to sit through it.
I consider the more mature themes in some Golarion books to be a minus, not a plus. This is because I'd like to be able to read them anywhere at any time, even when my kids are around. As it is, I'm afraid they might be attracted by the full-color art, and ask me to read the books aloud. And my kids are often around during play sessions as well, so speaking these things in a game is out of the question.
+1
While the 15 year old plays with us, there are often younger siblings who come along with everyone else. Not everything can be mentioned while playing, so choosing a good series of games to play while they're around is important. Its nice that Paizo produces some less-adult adventures and some more-adult themed ones for when someone does feel like that sort of game. Just gotta keep your eyes open for what can be shared and what cannot.
Especially with horror themed games. Children have good imaginations, better I think than most adults, and a few words and a single picture can be remembered for a long time. Stephen King's IT still scares the bejeezus out of me!
In my CotCT group we have a 15 year old and his father playing with us, and another member of our group seems to revert to being a little boy when the 15 year old is around. At one point he called the boy a bad name and flipped him off, which he thought was funny but everyone at the table yelled at him. The two seem to just rub each other the wrong way, and that was enough that the father had strong words with this friend. Luckily, I was able to avoid a crisis by speaking with all the parties involved, showing each how they might be over-reacting and they how I might be able to run the game more smoothly. We've been running much easier. This also involved the 15 year old calming down some and the older friend saying he's sorry.
That's an impressive story. Not all such situations get successfully defused.
While the 15 year old plays with us, there are often younger siblings who come along with everyone else. Not everything can be mentioned while playing, so choosing a good series of games to play while they're around is important. Its nice that Paizo produces some less-adult adventures and some more-adult themed ones for when someone does feel like that sort of game. Just gotta keep your eyes open for what can be shared and what cannot.
Wow. I'm not alone.
Wouldn't it be nice if Paizo could rate their products, like movies and video games, so that people like us could tell, at a glance, which products might be objectionable while we decided which titles to buy? Or if some fan, familiar with all the Golarion books, were to rate them and post those ratings on the internet somewhere?
Of course, this is all a fantasy. I know that's not really going to happen. People who would want such things seem to be in the minority among Paizo fans. As it is, we can post questions about a specific book on these messageboards. I did that once, and immediately got many helpful responses.
Product reviews should take the place of a rating system, hopefully.
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In my experience, a game will be as mature (both in behaving in an adult manner, and referencing explicit sex/violence/etcetera) as its participants. Some people are incapable of not giggling gleefully at the mention of the naughty bits due to their age, mental or otherwise; adjust accordingly and the game should go off without a hitch. I think the key to a great game is that people be willing to express their discomfort with something. On the other side of the coin, player and GM expectations need to be voiced before the game begins to avoid any "icky" moments.
Expectations are especially important - look at the Forgotten Realms - it has the capacity to be a mild, fun-filled sword and sorcery adventure, or you can get all sorts of Ed Greenwoodish and turn it into the (as I've heard it described recently) "[Mammary Glands]-Out" setting he envisioned it to be; not being clear on what kind of game is going to be played/you want to play can cause a game to fall apart with the quickness; I guess the biggest difference with the d20 system games (with the exception of a few distinct settings, I'm looking at you, Darksun, you too Ravenloft) is that while adult themes may be just beneath the surface, it isn't ever as in-your face as some of the other so-called "grown-up/grimdark" (admittedly, that's a term I'm beginning to hate) settings out there... A Song of Ice and Fire RP, Warhammer Fantasy RP, and Dark Heresy come to mind. Still, a short talk about what everyone expects can really clear up a lot of the unpleasantness that a surprise may hold.
Generally though an adventure should be read through at least once before running it which would allow you to censor the parts you find offensive.
Yes, but it's that first read-through that's the issue for me. I'd like, ideally, to be free to read through an adventure anywhere at any time, even when my kids are present. If they get curious about what I'm reading, they might ask me to read it aloud, and if it's my first read-through, I wouldn't know ahead of time what parts to skip or censor.
I have found that most "adult" or "mature" issues, rarely are.
As a teenager, I found enjoyment in slasher/horror fiction with lots of gratitious nudity. As an adult in my mid-30's, I find such intellectually lazy. Those are types of things usually tossed in when someone can't think of something more interesting to do.
I can see why that would be super annoying Jess. Perhaps it is time to look for a different group :-(This is multiple groups over multiple years and multiple states. At this point I figure it's pretty ubiquitous.
Sorry to hear that. It seems you always run into groups that play something more like boys night out. I never saw such behaviour in the groups I´ve been playing in. Are you the only woman in these groups? Perhaps having another woman in the group as well might help.
Stefan
As to the topic, I don´t care much if adult topics are involved or not. Most folks I´m gaming with would be quite uncomfortable with it, and we leave it at the "cut to the next morning" if it comes up at all. Regarding the gross stuff seen in some of the modules, well... If it serves a purpose within the story, it is fine with me, but this line is easily crossed, just like sex scenes in movies - most of the time, they are gratuitous and are only there for the sake of it, or even worse, just filler stuff.
Stefan
When the PCs found out the villagers were all missing (arrive at an empty village -- think "And Madness Follows" -- there was considerably more fear, lots of NPC friends and the now very pregnant blonde.
When the PCs meet a BBEG "lieutenant" in his lair and find the girl I finally showed the Bard PC (and others) an illustration of her -- from Complete Arcane, the Alientist. No, she's not pregnant in that picture.That freaked them out.
You mean this one ?Small wonder they freaked...
a nasty story about the Land family and their skeletons
Wow. That is a true horror story, and quite strong in images. Whatever character I played, he would most probably fly in a murderous rage after seeing that.
Stefan
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I can see why that would be super annoying Jess. Perhaps it is time to look for a different group :-(This is multiple groups over multiple years and multiple states. At this point I figure it's pretty ubiquitous.Sorry to hear that. It seems you always run into groups that play something more like boys night out. I never saw such behaviour in the groups I´ve been playing in. Are you the only woman in these groups? Perhaps having another woman in the group as well might help.
Stefan
I don't mind boy's night out games - if you don't want women there, that's fine. Then don't invite me. Or if you want to invite me but don't want to change your gaming style, let me know so I can decide whether or not that's a game I'm interested in participating in. That's pretty much all I ask - and I don't think that's unreasonable.
I would say it seems more likely to happen when I'm the only woman at the table. When there are other women at the table but I'm the only unattached woman at the table ( the others have husbands or boyfriends there ) it also comes up more than when there are other unattached women at the table.
I actually came to a game a friend invited me to where the players decided to "help" me by pregenerating two (badly built, my god, am I the only one that reads and understands the rules?!?) female characters for me. Kindly titled "The B****" and "The Slut".
-_-
...more stories about sexual harassment at the gaming table...
* shakes head * I don´t really know what to say. They could not do any better if they want to drive you away from gaming. You say there are even married men along them? These seem more like cases of hardcore geeks who never in their lives get close to a woman unless they pay them for it. At the age of 30+, I´d expect more maturity from gamers.
Stefan
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@ Jess and Stebehil
The problem rarely arises with our group. The first female to play with our group on a regular basis was actually the mother of another player (who is still with one of our adult age groups, though her son isn't) and new female additions tend to be a little older. They get treated with much more respect, it seems, than you've become accustomed to.
How old is the group you play with Jess? Perhaps that is the real source of the problem. Younger players have very different gaming expectations than older players, as I am finding out. What are your game expectations?
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, Jess. I've played with women in mixed-gender groups for years and while, yes, sex has come up and the more-than-occasional off color comment or joke has been made, it was swiftly put aside when it came time to actually game. Only rarely were people offended, and even then apologies were made and attention returned to the game. Then again, I've VERY rarely played with strangers, almost everyone I've gamed with has been a friend for years, rapidly approaching life-long friend status in many cases. I'm even running an all-girl gaming group(I'm a guy and the DM) and the only difference I've noticed is a marked tendency for bloodletting in female groups.
To the topic at hand, sex rarely comes up as a serious topic in my games. I have had two characters for whom sex was actually important, one was an insane female Druid who firmly believed herself some time of universal earth mother/Scylla, the other was an incorrigable male Bard. Lots of grade school humor at times, but for the most part sex really didn't factor into the equation. We were all too busy being focused on surviving, especially when the druid had a mishap with the deck of many things...
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The groups I game with have age variances anywhere from mid twenties to high thirties and older.
some of the bad situations have been simply because I joined a large random game at a local gaming store, and the one idiot in the group ruined it for everyone, not just me.
Usually if it's bad it's been because I'm a new person in an established group. But sometimes even a group I've had no problem with, as soon as my character establishes a relationship that isn't based on mutual violence with anyone in the game, it's like she suddenly plastered on a hooker suit. It'll take a couple sessions of me establishing my character's old "I don't get close to anyone except to stab them better" persona before the problem tapers off again.
I'm an engineer, math geek and rules lawyer - as long as I keep myself and my characters rather sexless, I'm accepted as a general authority on rules and build optimization. But it kinda feels like everytime I wander out of the realm of numbers and statistics into actual emotional roleplay, I get smacked in the face by a brick wall. Maybe it's weak, but I'm so tired of getting my nose broken on the brick, I'd rather just stick to numbers and statistics and keep my character's internal dialogue so internal no one else realizes it's there.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Shame on all counts, Jess.
My funny sexism story:
One of the other player's Character started to run with it. Well the ST and I had worked up rules for a 38 Lite Cyclone and we'd decied that it would fit my character-as-test-pilot concept since the MOSPEDa anime notes apparently note the 38 as 'simple enough a woman can use it.' It was only when the ST realized the player's pushing it would end in his character catching a rocket from the cannon, or his head being crushed between a pair of exoskeleton enhanced thighs that he took the player aside and told him to stop. So in that case it was definately aimed at the character's gender, and the player had nothing to do with it.
My bad timed adult theme story is when I accidentally said a trigger phrase on an abuse survivor :-(
Men don't do well with "actual emotional roleplay", if you want to not have problems with men players, try to avoid it in any great detail.
I can see how things might get tense if a female character in a mostly male group suddenly started being nice to one of the male characters. It is like watching a show and there is one woman and several guys and you spend the entire time wondering, "Who is she going to hook up with." Even in a balanced show this happens, "Who is going to hook up with who."
I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is pretty common (male) human thought process. Don't want to deal with it, any favortism (or picking on one guy too much) should be avoided. Those are things that make males think you are interested, at least in game, and if you are single out of game possibly. Guys are notorious for not realizing that women don't find fat balding guys still living in their mom's basement all that attractive ("Yeah, she wants me.").
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So, now that I've got a good discussion going on people and characters of an alternative bent... I'm thinking it might be good to see how others deal with things of an adult bent. Obviously, I'd like this post and all responses to adhere to the policies of the boards. I know that might not be easy while talking about the sorts of things that might be discussed, but I'm absolutely positive that if any group of people can, it's the people on these boards.
So, with that said. How do you fine folks deal with the more adult things that happen in games? By which I mean: Sex (sexuality is mentioned elsethread), drugs, long-term relationships, short-term relationships, inter-PC relationships, abuse (I'm not going to use the r*** word here, it's a bit close to the edge), etc. Obviously there's a lot of room for the scope of this discussion, and I've had my share of experiences in gaming.
To give an example:
Hildebraun (whom I am certain most are tired of hearing about) during her time during the playthrough of The Wizard's Amulet, had a bit of a run in with the BBEG. He ordered her brutalized, tortured and defiled. And it just made her stronger in her faith. And she, unlike almost any other Dwarf on the planet, gets along well with any Orc who's not trying to kill her on sight.
It happens...In one game a pc who was running around raping npc females found himself lured down an alley by a woman and grabbed by an Orc and sodomised…and npcs seem to be whispering about his 'accident' in the alley ever since. DisruptiVe player left group angry.
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Contributor
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I take a page from indie gaming and start campaigns with a "lines and veils" conversation. A line = something that will never be allowed in the game. A veil = something its ok to have in the game, so long as it happens off camera or after a "fade to black."
Everyone gets a veto over whats a line and whats a veil. I find this a useful way to frame the discussion.
For example, in my current game PCs being raped is ok, provided it happens off camera (and nevrer to one particular PC). The torture of animals is a line. The acts are not allowed in the game. The results of animal torture are allowed provided they are veiled and not described. "The animal was clearly tortured" is ok, but nothing more descriptive.
...er, not that my campaign is filled with animal torture and PC rape. These are just what came up at the table...
*slinks away to email Logue and Pett for more GM'ing advice*
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Have to agree with Jess, in my bad experiences with guys at gaming. Age rarely seems to matter much. There is more good than bad, but sadly to many of the bad and it only takes one to ruin a whole group.
That often seemed to be the case in my experience was, most of the guys where decent but one. Well one had issues and he would start in and slowly the others would make little comments or something all in good fun but it just kept escalating.
At one point I nearly gave up gaming because of it, luckly that was back in the early 90's and vamp was just getting big. I ran into those types of guys a lot less in the world of darkness games, compered to DnD.
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There're two main ways I've had it happen for me:
1. It's a new game, with new players. Not too many of the players know any others before this game, if any, and everyone's feeling their way into a new group. One guy is "that guy". He starts inappropriate comments, had a character made for annoying others, and everyone is so embarassed by his bad behavior that they either ignore him or get angry.
One guy in particular at a D&D meetup was so bad that the store had taken to having an employee literally run him through a "smell test" as he entered - and would ask him to leave on those occassions he hadn't bathed recently enough. He's the only person I've seen that actually fits that negative gamer stereotype.
He brought a lesbian elf into the game, whose first words were "Where is the brothel? i want to go to the brothel!" and then spent pretty much the entire session trying to yank the party there too. O.o I felt a little sorry for him, but knew any kindness would be grossly misinterpreted as something other than pity. I kept my distance despite him switching seats to be next to me and constant attempts to start something between our characters. The DM was unbelievably good and most of the players were cool so I wanted to come back for further games. Subsequent games always began with a dance wherein I found a seat that it was impossible for that guy to find a seat next to or directly across from me. a two person buffer was prefferable, and the meetup game was large enough (8-14 players - I told you, this DM was good, he kept everything moving and together!) to often allow me that.
This sort of thing offends me least. There are idiots and jerks out there, we all have to deal with them. The rest of the group wasn't tacitly approving of or actively adopting his behavior.
2. One player is inappropriate with constant in and out of game comments about women and sex. The other members of the group laugh at his comments or begin to join in. At first you ignore it or even participate in the joking - sometimes you participate because it starts off funny, sometimes in an effort to diffuse the situation and then move on - but it doesn't let up, and even starts to get worse. You're uncomfortable, but requests to stop or rudeness or disapproval all do nothing but make you more of a target. Eventually you have to decide whether to ignore it and hope it's something of an aberration or know you'll be dealing with it forever, get really confrontational and deal with the fallout - this often leads to group break ups, or talk to someone influential in the group one on one and try to fix things.
I had a character in a game with a group I have a lot of fun with. it's a 4E game, and while I don't enjoy the rules system much, the group makes it worth playing anyway. My character is an Eladrin Swordmage. I decided her background was she flunked out of "wizard school" for violence and lower abilities with magic, and turned into a mercenary, using what magic she had to augment her fighting. She started out and nothing but a towering resentment - especially against arcane casters. Her only friend was another Eladrin, a rogue. Their friendship consisted mainly of my character allowing this rogue to take her weapons from her whenever she got drunk to keep her from killing the other tavern patrons.
So, we adventure, our group is gelling, I figure my character's broadening circle of trustworthy friends and this intelligent sword she has and some religious experiments are going to change her attitude - slowly. And in one city my fellow eladrin and I find two handsome elf men that work at the palace - and are interested us. The rogue was flirting with the court bard - half because he stole a flower and presented it to her, which warmed her thieving heart - half because we were working on overthrowing the government and he was a useful source of information. I decided my character would have finally loosened up enough that the Master of the Hunt would interest her - it was clear he was interested back, and neither of them was looking for anything terribly permanent. Fade to black.
I thought it was another nice step in her development into a better character - and all of a sudden one of the players started making comments about my character, suggesting she sleep with random guardmen to get the party entrance into the palace, asking for details about her and the ranger's physical attributes, etc. And for a couple of sessions straight. I tried to write it off as the player being bored because his character was a barbarian with pretty much no social skills and this was an intrigue heavy adventure - and he eventually backed off. The rest of the group started to do the same thing - but I think they saw it was bothering me and they stopped after a couple of sessions. By this time I had backpedalled and made my character back into nothing but a seething ball of violence. Which sort of backfired as the problem player made more comments about her bedroom activities in light of her violent attitude.
This bothered me much more - I don't think this sort of roleplay is too...explicit, and it shouldn't cause problems at the table. But for me, it always seems to happen. Hence, my reverting to sexless characters that don't encourage that sort of thing at the table all the time.
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I think the first guy is someone that all gamers have to deal with at some point. We had a guy who also wouldn't regularly bathe try to game with us, and one of our conditions was that he at the very least deodorize before he enter the house. He was a football player in high school, and would often come game with us after school without bothering to shower. We kept the windows open, even in winter.
The second guy, it sounds as if he'd become uncomfortable with the situation once it was done and he didn't know how to react. I think this might have a lot to do with the "dude situation" too, where guys find humor in jabs against another's ego. We all do it, from time to time, but you've just gotta be careful where you do that sort of thing and to whom. At the very least you don't do it more than once. That unspoken propriety is necessary in all social situations, especially in games involving both genders.
I think some people have trouble disassociating real life from their characters, and so they try to be comfortable with things characters do that wouldn't otherwise happen in RL. One of the guys I play with is like this, he calls us by our real names at table and asks why we do things differently than he'd expect us to do... and we always answer because it is what our character would do. The he says, "Oh yeah!". Some people just need reminding of that.
Unfortunately that doesn't make it easier on you. It'd be nice if there was an easy solution, but no one should feel objectified as a result of a fictional character they're tied to. At the very least I hope he figured out what he did and apologized.
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Studpuffin, ok to be completely fair. Age seems to matter a little but not much. Younger guys are a bit more pron to doing things like this. But not really nearly as much as you would think.
I have dealt with both types Jess lists, but more of the second situation than the first. I don't know maybe a I have bad luck in that regard. Just seems when their is one of those guys and he starts in often mostly with OOC comments the rest laugh and take part and it slowly slides IC.
My current group has one guy that is like that but for the most part the other guys keep him in line so that it isn't to bad and admitedly he can be funny at times.
Jess the second guy you talk about, I have had that come up a lot. Where the group suggest my character sleep with whomever so the group can more easily accomplish something. Likely doesn't help that I like to play rogues and chr based PC's. I don't mind the tactic and it is a valid tactic, but it can get annoying when it is brought up all the time especially when you are very obviously not playing a type of character it that would. Like the type of wizard you was playing for example.
Yeah the no bathing enough thing can and has been a real problem before too. I mean come on just sniff under your arm. If you can smell something trust me so will everyone else. Water won't killya.
But I think I have mildly hijacked this thread and should really be posting this in the bad gamer etiquette thread.
So back on topic, the last game I played in as a player had a scene where the party come across a torture room. It was very recently used and even had one person left alive. The GM described the scene in graphic gruesome detail. Enough it bothered me a little but mostly in a good way and made my normal pretty caring PC want to put the torture victim out of his misery.
That really made the group hate the bad guys even more than they already did and drove the PC's to make sure the completed the task of taking the bad guys out.
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But I think I have mildly hijacked this thread and should really be posting this in the bad gamer etiquette thread.
Yeah, you're right. This convo could go elsewhere, but I think this is the kind of etiquette that arises from using mature situations.
So back on topic, the last game I played in as a player had a scene where the party come across a torture room. It was very recently used and even had one person left alive. The GM described the scene in graphic gruesome detail. Enough it bothered me a little but mostly in a good way and made my normal pretty caring PC want to put the torture victim out of his misery.
That really made the group hate the bad guys even more than they already did and drove the PC's to make sure the completed the task of taking the bad guys out.
I've used "hard scenes" to try and give the pcs some passion about destroying the bad guys. This usually works best when I have them kidnap a beloved NPC or fawn over a PC... ala RotRL.
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Yeah, you're right. This convo could go elsewhere, but I think this is the kind of etiquette that arises from using mature situations.
But I think I have mildly hijacked this thread and should really be posting this in the bad gamer etiquette thread.
True but we can move this side of the conversation to the bad gamine etiquette thread though and discuss the rest here. I mean no reason to have two threads talking about more or less the exact same thing. :)
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True but we can move this side of the conversation to the bad gamine etiquette thread though and discuss the rest here. I mean no reason to have two threads talking about more or less the exact same thing. :)Yeah, you're right. This convo could go elsewhere, but I think this is the kind of etiquette that arises from using mature situations.
But I think I have mildly hijacked this thread and should really be posting this in the bad gamer etiquette thread.
Do you have a link for that thread, mayhaps?
Jess - first, wow. All I can say is "I'm sorry..." And "I admire your resilience to put up with that sort of crap." Followed again by "I'm sorry you had to exert it."
Whenever I've had that sort of behavior going on at one of my GMing tables, I've felt that it's my responsibility to the table as a whole to say "Cut it out."
I get to play/GM three times a month, tops. Which means I get a total of about 15-17 hours of this activity per month. My gaming time is too valuable to be spent watching people make "just one of the guys" comments ad nauseum, or suggest that a female player's character sleep with a guard to get information.
I'm always looking for more tools for that particular tool kit other than a "Cut it out."
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Most of my games have been with people I've known for 20+ years, so "adult" material isn't hard to incorporate, because we're all very comfortable with each other and since we got past the teenage years (where we, of course, weren't very mature in how we handled these things) we've all agreed that where it adds to the game, go for it.
Generally, we'll gloss over adult elements that don't matter all that much or add to the fun of the game -- when a character gets married and goes off on an intensely sexual honeymoon to the Astral Plane (hey, time doesn't pass, so they can fornicate for a month and not miss any adventuring time), we hand-wave that and let the player just have a silly smirk for the rest of the session. Seductions of NPCs and such are similar -- play it up until you get to the deed, then cut away. I'll sometimes go into detail if it's important; if the enchantress likes to use dominate person on you in the bedroom, you now know she's a very twisted and wrong person.
But where it helped the plotlines, I've used all manner of themes -- rape, mental and psychological abuse, horrible slaughters and dismemberings, abortion (when the party had a vigorous debate over whether a raped woman's possibly half-fiend fetus could or should be saved or killed), etc. I think you can incorporate whatever works at your table, but know the value of discretion. I didn't need to describe every horrible element of the PCs watching the leering blackguard take that girl away to be raped and impregnated, but just letting them know the depths of his evil really helped amp up their motivations and took my game into a deeper layer of play and plotlines. In fact, just that single off-handed element (when I decided "hey, this guy is really evil -- how would he treat a pretty and innocent young peasant girl?") spun off an entire plotline in my game that I think my players recall as the best sub-plot of the entire game.
Obviously, this depends greatly on your audience. I told a friend reluctantly that I didn't think his 14 year old daughter was a good candidate to play in our game, because I felt my style and flow was going to bring the game into the zone of somewhere between PG-13 to R quite often. Even where not explicit (and it usually isn't -- although salty language flies quite often when they deal with uncouth characters), thematically I wanted to be able to raise difficult issues at times, issues I just don't think a 14 year old is going to identify with and process correctly. If her dad really thought that she could deal with it all, and that maybe role-playing these things is a healthy way to learn and grow in a "safe" place, maybe I would let her come to the table and we'd just be more careful in how we played and how it was described.
As far as anything else -- well, my friends are all very liberal and open-minded. Sexuality issues are pretty much a non-issue as a topic, although perhaps the characters they play have a different POV. We've had LGBT characters (as in, at least one example of all of the above over the course of 20+ years of gaming), asexual characters, shape-changers that could be best described as "pansexual", etc. Sometimes that's a background feature of the character, sometimes it is at the forefront and defined them entirely -- kind of like real life, I guess. As above, we give it as much "air time" and detail as is useful and fun for the game.
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The incest was the part that grossed them out, not the sex.
Taboo things like incest, rape, and self-scarification/mutilation would be on the outs with my group pretty quick. I'd be willing to explore such in a campaign if not taken to an uncomfortable level.
See, all of the above are things that have already been touched on in my current game. The rape thing was all cast as "someone tried to rape the barbarian character, not realizing she was going to reach for the greatsword she just forged and cut his fool head off". It was entirely in the background story (of my wife's character), never "on screen".
Scarification/mutilation was in the backstory of one of the minor villains, and they found out that he was also skinning people who had offended him and making leather-works out of the skins, because he was sadistic like that. That amped up the strong desire to get that guy, and helped the party sort out that among all the people they captured alive, that guy was the least likely to be able to claim he was just a "pawn" of the Big Bad. He's currently rotting in prison, but will escape soon, even crazier and more sadistic -- now he's given up his very soul to the dark forces, and he's seeking revenge on the party. I expect them to stumble on some very familiar patterns of skinned corpses as a clue that he's escaped.
Incest... well, no one has realized yet the "special" relationship a couple of the villains have (brother and sister). They may never stumble upon it, or care. I wrote that in because it fit with the total theme and plotline around these two, and it also made the sister a more sympathetic figure, since she's essentially being psychologically manipulated into evil acts by her lover/brother. She might be considered redeemable by the party when the dust settles, and blurring the lines between black and white here made it all more interesting.
Again... this is in a group of people I've known for 20+ years, plus my wife whom I hope I know pretty darn well too. I go with what works, and am always careful to not make things too bleak or dwell on prurient matters. I usually figure if a Showtime or HBO series would go there, I can go there -- I'm much more looking for a "Deadwood"/"Dexter" feel than a "Hostel"/"Saw" feel. Never shocking stuff for the sake of shock value alone.
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We'll generally try to keep from crossing that line as we go... but sometimes the story we want to tell requires us to get our hands dirty.
Do you think it is worth it to note those sorts of things prominently and warn a GM about the themes and suggest alternatives to "soften" it? I think you should feel free to explore these things and write great stories using them, and the only "constraint" should be a frank discussion of the themes and a fair warning to the GM that some of the content requires discretion and a mature group.
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We'll generally try to keep from crossing that line as we go... but sometimes the story we want to tell requires us to get our hands dirty.Do you think it is worth it to note those sorts of things prominently and warn a GM about the themes and suggest alternatives to "soften" it? I think you should feel free to explore these things and write great stories using them, and the only "constraint" should be a frank discussion of the themes and a fair warning to the GM that some of the content requires discretion and a mature group.
This isn't a bad idea. An option to "soften" or "gray-out" some things in a little side bar would be great if something looks like it could be problematic. I'd be more likely to pick up something more adventurous if I had an option to tone it down some... or make it more. Ideas for adaptation are never a bad thing in this genre.
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This is because I'd like to be able to read them anywhere at any time, even when my kids are around. As it is, I'm afraid they might be attracted by the full-color art, and ask me to read the books aloud. And my kids are often around during play sessions as well, so speaking these things in a game is out of the question.
Interesting. Not sure how old your kids are; mine are 8 and 10 (step-kids, so I've only known them since they were 6 and 8), and I sometimes run into similar issues. For instance, I can't leave a lot of my Paizo materials around, because left out, the 10 year old is for sure going to read them, and the 8 year old would open up anything that has a dragon on the cover. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they did read the material, of course -- it just might lead to conversations that might be a bit premature in their development.
My kids aren't around most of the time we game (it's always on weekends they are with their birth father), but the couple of times they have been, we just make it clear that the adults need some adult time, and ask them to play in their rooms or in the family room, and try not to interrupt us if they're otherwise amusing themselves. If I couldn't swing that, then for sure I'd have to edit the content of my games -- probably edit it quite a bit, because at this point even innuendo doesn't seem to escape their notice.
But as far as the reading materials, if I were reading something (anything) of a mature nature and the kids asked about it, I'd really take a chance to make it a learning lesson that some things are for adults, some things are for kids. It seems like something they need to sort out as some point -- I know video games are a big point of discussion in my house when I tell them why they can't buy a rated "M" game or watch me play one of my rated "M" games. I've had to point out that, yes, these games have many of the same shiny and attractive elements that their video games have, but some of the content is too "adult" for them right now, and they need a few more years of life before it is something meant for them. That discussion is a real work-in-progress; they don't yet "get" why this is so, but they're starting to evolve their understandings and will even self-edit things sometimes if they flip through channels when we happen to not be in the family room at that moment -- they know not to stop and watch "The Man Show" (although girls on trampolines aren't yet a topic of interest to them anyway -- well, maybe they like the trampolines, but the bouncing of other items doesn't yet hold any allure).
But, yeah... parental issues are always something to work through. For my wife and I, we just keep a firm segregation between "this is stuff for adults, and here's our best explanation of why", "this is stuff you can play or watch when we're around" (for anything that might lead into question and answer time -- some of Nick's tween-oriented shows are like this; I've seen way too much iCarly as a result), to "this is stuff that is good for you, and you can watch any of these shows or play these games even if we're not in the room".
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I can see why that would be super annoying Jess. Perhaps it is time to look for a different group :-(This is multiple groups over multiple years and multiple states. At this point I figure it's pretty ubiquitous.
Wow, that's crazy. I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I guess not. I've been lucky to mostly game with people I already have a firm social footing with, but I know that's the exception rather than the rule. I would never tolerate conduct that made any player uncomfortable -- how is that any different that if we were playing "Clue" and I insisted you play "that hot character in the low-cut dress"?
Keep looking, though -- you should be able to play a character with some actual depth without people applying rude social conventions of sexuality that are, frankly, quite dated. It's one thing for an RPG culture itself to be misogynist (although every time I've had that in my games, it's always been clear that the female characters are the ones breaking that social taboo and asserting their equality), but a game table should never be.
Stories and scenarios aside, i don't see a problem with "Mature Gaming," but it really depends on the group and the person running the campaign.
I myself deal with more adult situations regularly from my regular gaming group, as I always seem to end up with a player wanting to play a sexually active character.
I don't deal with the situation graphically, it's more of "Make a bluff/diplomacy roll, you passed, it happens, on to the next part of the story."
My gaming group has been playing this way since I joined them 6 years ago, and we haven't had any person feel uncomfortable at the gaming table, including myself who was 16 at the time.
I personally don't belive that adult situations in gaming are a good or a bad thing, I have played in groups that have been, as you Americans call it, PG-13, and I have played in graphic roleplaying, but all in all, again, it always comes down to the group and players.
I think that in some games, and the operative word there is SOME, encounters of the naughty kind can help the storyline, or even make players have a reason to stay on the current path.
On the other hand, it can be taken too far, and as i have said repeatedly, it comes down to the group.
There're two main ways I've had it happen for me:
1. It's a new game, with new players. Not too many of the players know any others before this game, if any, and everyone's feeling their way into a new group. One guy is "that guy". He starts inappropriate comments, had a character made for annoying others, and everyone is so embarassed by his bad behavior that they either ignore him or get angry . . .
I'm really sorry that you have had these experiences in gaming, and when I read stuff like this, it doesn't surprise me that women sometimes have a hard time finding inroads into the game. I am glad, however, that I haven't run into this too much in my gaming experience (although, being male, I wouldn't have seen it from the same perspective, so there are always things I could have missed).
The first time my group ever had a female player was my ex-wife. There were other problems with her in the group, mainly caused by her, but there wasn't the kind of interaction with her that you have noted. Since I was the DM, and the guys in the group felt like she was constantly hogging the spotlight, the situation doesn't have too much bearing on this discussion.
Much later, I had another woman in the group that was an excellent roleplayer and we never had any problems. She played a paladin, and there was even a bit of romantic roleplay with an NPC city watch commander and arranged marriages (none of which became too "adult" in content) from her aunt, but no friction every resulted from the male players interaction with her character.
My 12 year old and 14 year old daughters both played in campaigns that I ran, and I have to admit I would have had to have done bodily harm to any males that made untoward commentary about their characters, although I'll admit that I had a hill giant flirt with my daughter's half-ogre monk, purely for comedic effect.
I've run several Pathfinder Society events with female players, without any specific incident, and I played in a one shot Savage Worlds game where the one female gamer played a 13 year old girl with super powers that turned out to be really twisted and learned how to phase hand grenades into our enemies bodies, and she played that extremely funny and creepy at the same time.
So, with that said. How do you fine folks deal with the more adult things that happen in games? By which I mean: Sex (sexuality is mentioned elsethread), drugs, long-term relationships, short-term relationships, inter-PC relationships, abuse (I'm not going to use the r*** word here, it's a bit close to the edge), etc.
I tend to go with the old "Good guys wear white" rules: The bad guys indulge in bad stuff; good guys don't. You won't find a "good" slaver, a drug dealer with a heart of gold, nor an orc who is really just misunderstood ("It's not my fault I brutalize those weaker than me! It's just how I was raised! You can't judge me!")
I usually run PG-13 scenes. It makes the bad stuff that much worse. My current group running through RotRL is pretty devil-may-care, but hitting them with the reality that goblins do some pretty horrific things brought them down. I could see it in their faces. It made the players realize that their characters were up against something Evil (TM).
Long-term relationships aren't usually played out. I think too many players have had GMs use family and spouses as adventure hooks.
Short-term relationships get the fade-to-black treatment. There's no need for me to role-play these encounters. I don't need to know my friends that well. Besides, I've found most people interested in describing these events have maturity issues. This is my experience only; YMMV.
Drugs are usually seen in a negative light. Sure, I've had some characters indulge in pipe-weed, and who doesn't like a good stiff shot of dwarven spirits now and then. But, much as in real life, hard drug use leads to very bad places, which is the province of the bad guys.
Inter-PC relationships are a special case, since the only two people I've seen indulge in this particular behavior were cheating on their spouses. Party cohesion isn't advanced when the players have real (and substantial) problems with each other.
In the end, it's all about the type of game you want to play. I want to play heroic fantasy (with an occasional shot of Call of Cthulhu). I have no interest in roleplaying an erotic, drug-induced encounter with a gamer who may or may not have showered that day.
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I actually tried to turn the comments one player was making to my advantage. Allow me to explain.
My Eldritch Knight of Lamashtu had recently recieved "Lamashtu's Blessing." She had been reincarnated as a gnoll. Last session, the groups Shadowdancer had also been reincarnated into a gnoll. Since they were different genders, I was asked when my character would have "puppies."
I understood he was making a joke, and I thought it was funny. But my DM(for that game) doesn't allow anything but the core races(except through reincarnation), and I thought if she did have "puppies," I asked the DM if I could play a watered-down gnoll during the next campaign. He thought I was offended by the "puppies" comment, and wanted to know if he should tell the player to stop. I told him no, I just wanted to play a gnoll at 1st level. He said no. :(
This is because I'd like to be able to read them anywhere at any time, even when my kids are around. As it is, I'm afraid they might be attracted by the full-color art, and ask me to read the books aloud. And my kids are often around during play sessions as well, so speaking these things in a game is out of the question.
Interesting. Not sure how old your kids are; mine are 8 and 10 (step-kids, so I've only known them since they were 6 and 8), and I sometimes run into similar issues. For instance, I can't leave a lot of my Paizo materials around, because left out, the 10 year old is for sure going to read them, and the 8 year old would open up anything that has a dragon on the cover. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they did read the material, of course -- it just might lead to conversations that might be a bit premature in their development.
Yeah, I just don't understand this. I have a seven year old myself, but it doesn't mean I watch the fricking Wiggles for entertainment on my own time.
The kind of "mature content" people seem to be concerned about here is less graphic than is in computer games (Dragon Age, GTA, etc.), network TV (the X-files "Home" episode reference), comics, fantasy novels (Perdido Street Station), etc... Hell, "The Boondocks" and graphic anime comes on Cartoon Network at night.
I must admit I'm puzzled why so many people are so ginger about mature content in their games, and I don't really buy the "what about the CHILDREN!" answer. I'm a parent and know a lot of other parents, and no one purges (or even bothers to hide) every R-rated DVD, V-chips their TV, burns their "Laurell K. Hamilton" novels... It's not like the books are full of nudie pictures. Is someone really saying that there's a realistic scenario where a kid picks up Hook Mountain Horror, takes a couple hours to read through it, and then wanders up and says "Hey, there's some vaguely implied incest in the ogre family isn't there? Time for us to have a birds and bees talk!" Please.
Frankly, all this makes me concerned how much RPGs are stuck in a creative ghetto. And adult/mature does not just mean "there's sex in it," it's maturity of theme and so on. There's one guy on ENWorld complaining about Golarion because there aren't enough clearly-labelled good and evil countries. Really? That's the level of sophistication expected from RPGs? When any computer game above the level of "junky console game" would never do that, no modern fantasy novelist would embarrass themselves with that, no TV show that wasn't a blatant Venture Brothers style parody (or kids' cartoom) would do that... Why do we want that in our gaming?
It's great that Paizo has pushed the boundary a little, and I hope they keep doing so - because "almost as mature as network television" is kind of a low bar. It's up to the creators/artists to challenge the audience, otherwise of course things will settle to the lowest common denominator.
Adult aspects is quite a broad term. Sex is one thing, but violence, torture, drugs are also adult or mature topics. Of course, first and foremost, don´t do anything that is no fun to you. If these topics bother you, don´t use them. OTOH, these topics can serve to bring a point across.
Violence is of course a common thing in the game, there are very few sessions without one combat, so you have some kind of violence in the game almost constantly. (I always thought it odd that violence does not raise as much concerns as sex does, just as if violence was normal somehow - yeah, stab,shoot,burn,electrocute,dissolve,disintegrate to your hearts content, but sex? Oh,no, we can´t have that! But that is another topic.)
Torture and cruelty are tools for the DM to show just how evil the creatures are that the PCs have to confront. It would be a loss IMO to make these off-limits because of thinking them to be inappropriate. There is no need to describe it in graphic detail. Most of the time, the quite active imagination of gamers is worse than anything the DM can describe anyway. So I see this has to be used with caution. OTOH, these things can and do happen in the real world, and there is not much of a protection against these topics coming up. So, it is no use of creating a safety zone and denying the existence of these things. Rather, deal in an mature manner with these topics. Still, for the game, if they are not fun, leave them out.
Pretty much the same goes for drugs. If used in a clever way, drugs in the game can even serve as a lession - having a PC drug addicted and denying the player full control about the character as a consequence of that is of course walking a fine line as a DM, but can bring the point across. Now, the game should not be turned into lessions at each and every occasion, but if you play with kids or teens, this might - used with much thought and caution - be one occasion where a lession is learned.
Sex is a part of life. It should be neither damned nor plastered all over the place. Do you talk about your sex life to everyone everywhere? Chances are, most folks don´t. So, most probably, most characters won´t either. It is a intimate thing between two people for the most part (I´d say about 99% of it.), and should be treated in the game the same way. If the topic comes up, deal with it in an adult manner, and go on with the game. Using it as a plot element, like the Graul scene, is tricky at best, and leads to controversy. But I still would want to leave it in the game - if everyone plays safe all the time, it gets boring and stagnant.
Stefan
My Eldritch Knight of Lamashtu had recently recieved "Lamashtu's Blessing." She had been reincarnated as a gnoll. Last session, the groups Shadowdancer had also been reincarnated into a gnoll.
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I told him no, I just wanted to play a gnoll at 1st level. He said no. :(
Un-friggin'-believable.
For more than a year, ever since I read this post, I've wanted to play a gnoll.
(If you don't want to bother clicking the link, suffice to say the story involves a PC, due to one quirky die roll, getting reincarnated as a gnoll.)
And now you're telling me that TWO characters in the same campaign got reincarnated as gnolls? By sheer chance? What are the odds?!?
I've always avoided any kind of controversy on messageboards in the past, but I feel compelled to respond to some of these points...
The kind of "mature content" people seem to be concerned about here is less graphic than is in computer games (Dragon Age, GTA, etc.), network TV (the X-files "Home" episode reference), comics, fantasy novels (Perdido Street Station), etc... Hell, "The Boondocks" and graphic anime comes on Cartoon Network at night.
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I must admit I'm puzzled why so many people are so ginger about mature content in their games, and I don't really buy the "what about the CHILDREN!" answer. I'm a parent and know a lot of other parents, and no one purges (or even bothers to hide) every R-rated DVD, V-chips their TV, burns their "Laurell K. Hamilton" novels... It's not like the books are full of nudie pictures.
At my house, we don't watch network TV until the kids are in bed, except to check the weather or road conditions on snow days. We carefully select videos, and only allow the kids one video a day, as there are far better things the kids could be doing with their time. We don't need cable; we have practically no time to watch TV anyway. I keep the more objectionable videos on a high shelf, behind other videos, so the kids can't reach them. Most of my comics, too, are on a high shelf, not only so that I can select carefully the appropriate ones, but also to keep the kids from losing and destroying them. (Even the older child has not yet learned how to take good care of her toys.) We have very few computer games, and those few are obviously harmless (e.g. Tetris imitations.) We check each website before we allow the kids to view them (all of those websites are kids' games.)
As for adult novels, the kids aren't yet good enough readers to read those yet. Sometimes, my kids have asked me to tell them the stories I'm reading, but they don't have the attention span to hear an entire adult novel; they want me to tell the stories more briefly than that, so censoring them is easy. (I'd have some amusing stories on the subject, but those would be getting REALLY off-topic.)
My oldest is 7 years old. Yes, there will come a time - all too soon - when the kids are old enough to flip stations when we're not around, surf the internet more freely, and reach those books and videos on the higher shelves. But until then, why expose them to that stuff? If your response is "to prepare them," you can just warn your kids to beware of strangers, because there are bad people. You don't have to describe what those bad people might DO.
I always thought it odd that violence does not raise as much concerns as sex does, just as if violence was normal somehow - yeah, stab,shoot,burn,electrocute,dissolve,disintegrate to your hearts content, but sex? Oh,no, we can´t have that!
In fact, my mother has, on several occasions, criticized me for telling violent stories to my kids. When my younger child started to hit, punch, and kick other children, I actually stopped reading him comic books, for months and months. I have never believed that violent comic books encourage him to fight, but there are a lot of people who WOULD believe that, and I would hate for anyone to use comics as an alibi. I recently started to read him comics again, and I even use them as a reward. "If you can go the whole day without fighting, I can read you a comic book tonight." I don't know whether this approach will work, but it MIGHT.
But I digress. Several people on this board have criticized me for censoring sex but not violence from my kids. What's the difference? My answer is this: I don't believe, when I tell stories about swords or guns, that my kids will actually try to attack someone with a sword or fire a gun because of it. Telling a story about such a thing isn't like watching an R-rated movie about them; it's only vague description.
Sex is another matter. It's a natural thing, which many people feel compelled to do. I'm afraid that if my kids get too comfortable with discussing the subject, they may also get comfortable with experimenting with it, after they reach the age when they think about such things, but before they're old enough to handle them.
Furthermore, I might get into great trouble if my kids discuss such things in public. I once told my daughter the story of "Lady and the Tramp," and briefly mentioned that a dog got gassed. I doubt my daughter understood what I meant, but she must have mentioned this to my mother the next time they watched the movie together, and my mother told me later to watch what I say around my kids. I could live with THAT particular criticism, but had my daughter mentioned sex, I couldn't have looked my mother in the eye.
<Whew!> If I had known I'd be rambling that long, I wouldn't have bothered to start typing this bleeping message. Maybe I just should have said this: If you don't want to censor something from your kids, that's fine. The way you raise your kids is your business. The way I raise my kids is mine.
....lots of interesting stuff....
The real issue is not whether you censor things that contain sex and/or violence when around minors, it's more about what types of sex and violence you let them know about. Kids will find out all sorts of things you do not want them to know when you are not around to police them. That is what the talk around the school lunch table or friends with more liberal parents are for, after all. The biggest thing to accomplish regarding kids and sex/violence is that they do not only see glamorized examples of them. Say, if the only exposure to gun use is that the good guy never gets hurt and always wins, and your kid finds a gun while playing with a friend at that friend's house, your child will probably not think twice about playing with it and maybe hurting someone. This can also apply to anything with a sharp edge or point, whether it is the butcher knife from the kitchen being used as a play sword or that fancy real sword hanging on the wall. The same thing with the bad side of sex like rape and other violent sex. If they only see a glamorized version where the person doing it does not get in trouble and the resistance of the victim turns into acceptance and pleasure by the end, then a boy us much more likely to do it and a girl much more likely to accept it happening. Another example of impressionable kids comes from the trend of backyard wrestling, where they see all this crazy stuff done on tv by professional wrestlers trained to act and do these stunts, then go and try to re-enact matches only to seriously get hurt. Long story short, if you have minors or immature adults in your gaming group, you do not have to eliminate it but do not just glamorize the sex and violence or gloss over the penalties for doing the bad stuff.